Originally posted by Syndicate
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the training he received from Qui Gon there Wo-MythLord.
Which training? Ghost Jinn or TPM Jinn? Because the latter would make no sense because, y'know, he's talking about him and Vader's power growth "since their parting" which happened a while after TPM.
If you're referring to Ghost Jinn, that still wouldn't change much. One of the running themes in Star Wars is "knowledge is power" and Kenobi is clearly making a statement of his power growth, since he's comparing it to Vader's own growth in power, i.e. why he says Your power has matured since I taught you. So yeah, he grew in power.
Speaking of Ghost Jinn.
Knowledge increases your options but I don't think it necessarily increases your overall raw power in the Force. Given Kenobi's demonstrations up to that point I don't believe his raw power increased all that much if at all. Regardless the Force round is talking about only being capable of using the Force in a combative sense and I feel it's likely RotS Kenobi who was a wartime general is going to be quicker when it comes to erecting defenses and pressing an attack with offensive force abilities which would allow him to take the Force round even if he did become more powerful up to the OT.
Knowledge, in general, also apparently increases power. Dooku gained power just by accessing the knowledge of the Dark Holocron and the holocron of Darth Andeddu, the entire Season 2 finale of Rebels kept saying how knowledge is power, Plagueis and Sidious hold that belief, etc. I see no reason not to assume Ben spending years learning new Force techniques -- ones that would strengthen his connections to the Force, if anything -- shouldn't grow in power by at least a somewhat noticeable margin. Especially not when he himself has noted such a growth.
Not sure what you're pulling out of your ass now, but Kenobi kept his reflexes in-tune and actually did excercise, even if he didn't neccessarily face a foe in many years:
Taken from: Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi
It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull.
So in a Force round, there really is nothing suggesting RotS Kenobi -- who you've previously argued wasn't fast enough to put up a Barrier that can contain a, wait for it, whipcrack of power from Dooku -- would be quicker on the draw than Ben.
"Knowledge is power." Is a saying in the real world and often true though it doesn't nessecarily refer to personal power.
Dooku grew in power by opening a holocron?
Well not techniques plural. One technique, so that he could continue to train Luke if he passed on.
He notes Vader's maturity in the Force most likely because he's become a more knowledgeable more stable individual then when they lost met. Obi Wan growing closer to the Force by learning how to become one with it would indicate a growth in maturity in the Force to me as well. I don't believe that means he nessecarily grew in raw power or combative capability.
I've read the quotes your referring to and its accompanying novel. His physical reflexes flagged regardless but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the ease in which he'd employ the Force combatively which logically by RotS he should have been better at doing having had to fight many dark side adepts and using the Force in combat against droids and other CIS forces. The Force is like any muscle or skill. If you don't use it you lose it.
Whatever RotS Kenobi's reflexes are in regards to the Force Old Ben's are worse since he hasn't had anybody to use combative applications of the Force on while RotS Kenobi did.
Originally posted by Syndicate
"Knowledge is power." Is a saying in the real world and often true though it doesn't nessecarily refer to personal power.
But it seems to be quite literal in the Star Wars mythos.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Dooku grew in power by opening a holocron?
By growing in knowledge from the holocron, yes.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Well not techniques plural. One technique, so that he could continue to train Luke if he passed on.
A technique that would've strengthened his presence in the Force.
Originally posted by Syndicate
He notes Vader's maturity in the Force most likely because he's become a more knowledgeable more stable individual then when they lost met. Obi Wan growing closer to the Force by learning how to become one with it would indicate a growth in maturity in the Force to me as well. I don't believe that means he nessecarily grew in raw power or combative capability.
Given that other sources have confirmed ANH Vader > RotS, Mustafar Vader, I don't neccessarily think Kenobi's wrong or referring to a growing stability on Vader. Darth Vader is more stable than he was on Mustafar, but just that alone is enough for a power growth given how emotions coorelate with ones power. And again: knowledge is power. Either way you spin it, both had a power growth.
Originally posted by Syndicate
I've read the quotes your referring to and its accompanying novel. His physical reflexes flagged regardless but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the ease in which he'd employ the Force combatively which logically by RotS he should have been better at doing having had to fight many dark side adepts and using the Force in combat against droids and other CIS forces. The Force is like any muscle or skill. If you don't use it you lose it.Whatever RotS Kenobi's reflexes are in regards to the Force Old Ben's are worse since he hasn't had anybody to use combative applications of the Force on while RotS Kenobi did.
Based on what did his reflexes lessen? We know his stamine isn't quite what it used to be, but his strength was enough to make Vader's blows not enough to break his defenses and he kept his reflexes in-tune through practice as per the source above. Basically: I don't want to waste time with your unsupported claims, either give me proof or just hush up.
And why would Kenobi's ability to throw out a Force Push also vein over time, exactly? Sure, Obi-Wan used the more offensive side of the Force during RotS but it's not like he forgot how to use telekinesis in an offensive manner. I'm pretty sure he can still throw out his hand in break-neck speeds to send out a wave and apply it tactically enough. The only reason he didn't use it against Vader is because of Vader's superior power compared to Ben. So, again, I require solid evidence, not your baseless, unsupported claims created by your own head-canon.
Originally posted by MythLord
But it seems to be quite literal in the Star Wars mythos.By growing in knowledge from the holocron, yes.
A technique that would've strengthened his presence in the Force.
Given that other sources have confirmed ANH Vader > RotS, Mustafar Vader, I don't neccessarily think Kenobi's wrong or referring to a growing stability on Vader. Darth Vader is more stable than he was on Mustafar, but just that alone is enough for a power growth given how emotions coorelate with ones power. And again: knowledge is power. Either way you spin it, both had a power growth.
Based on what did his reflexes lessen? We know his stamine isn't quite what it used to be, but his strength was enough to make Vader's blows not enough to break his defenses and he kept his reflexes in-tune through practice as per the source above. Basically: I don't want to waste time with your unsupported claims, either give me proof or just hush up.
And why would Kenobi's ability to throw out a Force Push also vein over time, exactly? Sure, Obi-Wan used the more offensive side of the Force during RotS but it's not like he forgot how to use telekinesis in an offensive manner. I'm pretty sure he can still throw out his hand in break-neck speeds to send out a wave and apply it tactically enough. The only reason he didn't use it against Vader is because of Vader's superior power compared to Ben. So, again, I require solid evidence, not your baseless, unsupported claims created by your own head-canon.
Maybe if Kenobi had been studying ancient Jedi techniques but the only thing he learned was how to become one with the Force.
So teachings from the holocron increased his powers, teachings of which we are unaware of while the technique we know Kenobi learned has specifically to do with remaining corporeal after death rather then increasing his power.
As a spirit, yes. As a combative force user in life? I'm doubtful.
We know for sure Vader did, we don't know that the quote is referring to a growth in power on Vader's part and even less so on the part of Old Ben.
0-o It's just logic. As noted in "Kenobi" the Tatooine suns aged him prematurely and after 2 decades Kenobi would be physically inferior to his RotS self.
Employing the force is like employing any other ability. Obviously using TK is going to be easier to do if you're regularly employing it in combat compared to hiding your force presence from Inquisitors and Vader for 2 decades. Again, that's just logic.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Maybe if Kenobi had been studying ancient Jedi techniques but the only thing he learned was how to become one with the Force.
I... never denied that. I'm saying the ability he learned strengthened his power in the Force. And it logically should.
Originally posted by Syndicate
So teachings from the holocron increased his powers, teachings of which we are unaware of while the technique we know Kenobi learned has specifically to do with remaining corporeal after death rather then increasing his power.
Um, we do know the teachings of the holocrons Dooku used(at the very least we know of what Andeddu's holocron can teach you) and it's still not quite as much knowledge as being able to switch freely from the living and cosmic Force.
Originally posted by Syndicate
As a spirit, yes. As a combative force user in life? I'm doubtful.
How come? As a Force user overall, to do such a thing, would mean he's grown in the Force. That's logic.
Originally posted by Syndicate
We know for sure Vader did, we don't know that the quote is referring to a growth in power on Vader's part and even less so on the part of Old Ben.
Um, the quote directly says how Vader's power matured and Obi himself experienced a growth in power. Unless Vader's power went to college and got a job, it means he's grown in power. Given he's comparing himself to Vader when he says he's grown, then that means his own power has grown. Again, that's just logic.
Originally posted by Syndicate
0-o It's just logic. As noted in "Kenobi" the Tatooine suns aged him prematurely and after 2 decades Kenobi would be physically inferior to his RotS self.
And The Life and Legend of Kenobi specifically notes how Obi-Wan counter-balanced that by keeping up with his Jedi training. And again, his strength was enough that Vader couldn't break through his defenses and his speed was enough that if Vader's attention faltered, he could kill him quickly. And I don't think I need to list Vader's speed feats to show why that's impressive. Either way you spin it, Ben is at least comparable to his RotS self in everything bar stamina and there's no noticeable drop in reflexes for him not to errect a Force Barrier or thrust his hand forward to throw out a push against his younger self. Now quit grasping at straws, please.
Originally posted by Syndicate
Employing the force is like employing any other ability. Obviously using TK is going to be easier to do if you're regularly employing it in combat compared to hiding your force presence from Inquisitors and Vader for 2 decades. Again, that's just logic.
Not really. The Force doesn't need as much training as, say, a lightsaber does. To master Niman, for example, takes one a decade of practice. If you're powerful enough, the natural flow of the Force in you is enough. We've seen this many times that beings who haven't used the Force for an even longer period of time than Ben can immediately throw out Force Pushes without batting an eyelash. Karness Muur would be one of the best examples.