In "Space Seed" (TOS), Montalban looked positively Khanish. The golden nehru suit, the hair, the 'tude...he had great physical presence.
In "Wrath of Khan," that presence seemed greatly diminished (imo), if for good reason (both RL and plotwise).
Though it took me a bit to get over his not looking (classically) Khanish, Cumberbatch did a great job resurrecting, in his way, the menace of the character (largely via accent and fighting skill).
Originally posted by Esau Cairn
Cumberbatch played a great villain although I do wonder the necessity of being named, Khan, simply playing a new villain would've sufficed.I thoroughly enjoyed this sequel but it did seem a tad overdone with the amount of nods to previous series/movies.
I know the Klingons were a very minor subplot but their mere cameos made them out to be weaker characters compared to other movies.
They lost in a ground battle, I was expecting & disappointed not to see more Warbirds chase/battle them out of Klingon space.
the klingons being in Into Darkness was just a tease to a bigger/better role in the next one
I saw it last night. Very good visuals, great sound, entertaining action, etc.
The plot was thinner than I'd hoped for, and I was shocked how few ships there were considering the budget this movie had. Not counting shuttles, there were maybe a dozen ships shown in the entire movie by my recollection: the Enterprise, the Dreadnought (idk if that was the name of the ship or just the class), the small ship that entered the spacedock, and three small Klingon vessels that were probably just atmospheric craft. There were two points where this was glaring:
Spoiler:
first the Enterprise lists around Qu'onos/Kronos and not a single Bird of Prey shows up to ask what's going on (this could be put down to the Enterprise being out of Klingon sensor range, but that's still hard to believe--why aren't there patrols?), and second with the battle over Earth when there are zero Federation ships defending the capital planet.
I hope we get to see some major DS9 style battles between the Federation and the Klingons in the next movie.
Originally posted by Omega Vision
I saw it last night. Very good visuals, great sound, entertaining action, etc.The plot was thinner than I'd hoped for, and I was shocked how few ships there were considering the budget this movie had. Not counting shuttles, there were maybe a dozen ships shown in the entire movie by my recollection: the Enterprise, the Dreadnought (idk if that was the name of the ship or just the class), the small ship that entered the spacedock, and three small Klingon vessels that were probably just atmospheric craft. There were two points where this was glaring:
Spoiler:
first the Enterprise lists around Qu'onos/Kronos and not a single Bird of Prey shows up to ask what's going on (this could be put down to the Enterprise being out of Klingon sensor range, but that's still hard to believe--why aren't there patrols?), and second with the battle over Earth when there are zero Federation ships defending the capital planet.I hope we get to see some major DS9 style battles between the Federation and the Klingons in the next movie.
Same complaints I had (not about the # of ships).
Check out my review of the movie:
(Scroll down a bit...lots of spoiler text)
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=573244&pagenumber=9
Originally posted by Robtard
Might have been mentioned already, but did anyone else notice that the moon(Praxis) around Qo'noS was already destroyed in this alt timeline. About 30 years earlier than the standard timeline.Makes me wonder if that will be a plot concerning the Klingons and the Federation in the next film.
Nice catch! I completely overlooked that.
Originally posted by quanchi112
The mindset you walk into a theatre with along with your expectations greatly influences your opinion on it. I firmly believe this.Let me know what you think after you finish the second viewing.
After watching the film a second time, I definitely give it a 9. A low 9, but a 9. The movie fell flat around 2/3 the way in. It just lost it's amazing momentum. But then, when Spock lost his shit, the movie become phenomenal again. The dialogue was generally quick and witty. It did feel a tad forced when they were in that tiny space-craft going to Qo'noS. Also, Scotty almost stole the show. Every moment with him was awesome.
But on to my thoughts about the film.
I think Khan got an undeserved shitty rap. Let's analyze and talk about Khan's character for a moment. Khan came from a different time period than the Federation. The Federation is an organization of peace and prosperity between many different humanoid species. Khan was created for, matured in, and conquered lands in one of the worst periods in Human history. It was certainly one of the most barbaric and disgusting periods of history (only the Third World War can be considered more barbaric and dangerous but here's the kicker: the Third World War "arose from the ashes" of the Eugenics war so it really fed the Third World War).
So why did I bring up Khan's background? Because Kirk is an *sshole and an idiot. Lemme explain: Khan was under the impression that Marcus executed EVERY last one of his people. This is genocide (Khan and his people were the last known remnants of the Augments). That makes Marcus' actions not only a war-crime but beyond evil as it constituted, at least to Khan's perceptions, as genuine genocide to his family. So Khan, coming from a very barbaric and warlike time in humanity, did the only thing he knew to do: killed people. He didn't just kill indiscriminately: he made tactical kills. Notice how he destroyed the Section 31 facility? What WAS that facility? It was a facility being used to warmonger against the Klingons. This was against Federation law: especially the dreadnaught class ship that came from that project.
So here comes Marcus, betraying Khan after Khan did all that work for Marcus. Marcus lies and makes it seem as though he killed all of Khan's crew. Marcus was ready to dispose of Khan after he had used him. Khan predicted this kind of treachery by placing his crew in the new torpedoes he designed for Marcus under the assumption that Marcus might betray him. Well, Marcus did betray him and lied about killing his crew so Khan, being the warmongering barbarian that he is, went ape-shit.
But he didn't act out with no control. His lashing out against Marcus was directly calculated and cold. He first destroyed that facility. The facility was the secretive war-machine of Section 31. That was probably THE best target he could have destroyed as far as eradicating the evil Marcus was perpetrating. The deaths were isolated to those working in that facility and had minimal civilian casualty if ANY at all. So Khan did his best to minimize collateral damage while waging a direct war against Marcus. But that was not the end of Khan's plans: that was the beginning. He knew Starfleet protocol dictated that the top-brass of Starfleet meet at HQ to discuss the attack and formulate a plan. That's where he would execute the top-brass of the military that he saw as the perpetrators of genocide against his people.
So Khan was acting in the way he knew best. A warmongering grand chessmaster. Nay, 5 chessmasters rolled into one brain.
At some point, he figured out that Marcus lied about killing his people. Maybe it was when Sulu threatened him with the "new" torps? That might have been when he figured it out. Regardless, when he knew his people were alive, he surrendered to Kirk and tried to do right by his people, STILL. Even after all the shit Marcus put him through, he was willing to try his best to preserve his people.
So this is the part that pisses me off about Kirk: Kirk betrays Khan when Khan was helping him! This is exactly what Marcus had done to Khan that caused Khan to kill Marcus!
Also, Kirk should have agreed to let bygones be bygones when they confirmed Section 31's activities. After Kirk confirmed with Scotty that Khan was telling the truth, he should have said the following: "I will never forgive you for killing Pike. But I understand why you did it. Work with me, within the rules, and I will do right by you and your people. Let's save both our families." Of course, Khan could always say, "Your Federation is no different from my 20th Century military. You use secretive military operations to obtain your logistic goals. You are a dishonest and subversive people; every bit the same as the barbarians you deride." But something tells me that the character may be willing to cooperate with Kirk if Kirk offers him and his people a fair chance to prosper on their own (on a planet that isn't going to blow-up/experience a cataclysm shortly after they settle it).
But, instead of that, we get a Kirk that betrays Khan when Khan was helping Kirk. Spock also makes it seem like he kills all of Khan's people by detonating the torps after transporting them. That was extremely cruel and it caused Khan to go into a rage, again. This time, though, Khan did not calculate his harm against humanity: he crashed the USS Vengeance directly into a populated human city killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people. Think about it: Spock and Kirk caused the deaths of probably thousands of people through their betrayal and dishonest tactics against Khan. Had Kirk not insisted on his self-righteous and hypocritical dogma about sending Khan through a trial and instead, offered understanding and a penance (via saving the Enterprise and his people) for Khan, I'm pretty sure Khan would not have betrayed Kirk. Now, had this Universe's Kirk ALSO offered them a safe planet to stay (one that wouldn't experience and apocalypse), Khan and his people would have probably lived in peace. Nope! Kirk had to be a shithead. There was no reason, at all, for Kirk to betray Khan other than him being an *sshole.
Khan: incorrectly labeled as the villain.
I agree with Khan getting the raw end of the stick. I always had a huge problem with the line from Spock to Khan, "you betrayed us." Kirk betrayed him first. Marcus was the ******* in the film who was doing whatever he could to protect what he believed was necessary to ensure the safety of his side. He was so focused he wanted an all out war with Klingons which sadly due to Lindelof not being involved in the next Trek most likely won't see happen.
Khan wanting to destroy the entire crew after he beams the captain back was betrayal though. Spock acted based upon the advice of his older self and had he not his entire crew would have been annihilated by the Vengeance. Khan wasn't inherently evil like so many villains and the audience can understand why he did what he did.
All in all a superb film. Selfishly I'd like to see Abrams just continue to direct Star Trek films but I don't foresee Abrams ever directing another. Time to watch Orci steer the ship lets just hope he doesn't crash it.
I do believe Khan was a villain but Marcus was as well.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I agree with Khan getting the raw end of the stick. I always had a huge problem with the line from Spock to Khan, "you betrayed us." Kirk betrayed him first. Marcus was the ******* in the film who was doing whatever he could to protect what he believed was necessary to ensure the safety of his side. He was so focused he wanted an all out war with Klingons which sadly due to Lindelof not being involved in the next Trek most likely won't see happen.Khan wanting to destroy the entire crew after he beams the captain back was betrayal though. Spock acted based upon the advice of his older self and had he not his entire crew would have been annihilated by the Vengeance. Khan wasn't inherently evil like so many villains and the audience can understand why he did what he did.
All in all a superb film. Selfishly I'd like to see Abrams just continue to direct Star Trek films but I don't foresee Abrams ever directing another. Time to watch Orci steer the ship lets just hope he doesn't crash it.
I do believe Khan was a villain but Marcus was as well.
Khan definitely would have killed everyone on the Enterprise once he got his crew and he was going to do that but that was AFTER Kirk betrayed Khan on the Vengeance. So, yes, Khan was going to do something very atrocious but this was after Kirk had done his assholish thing.
Originally posted by dadudemonAgreed mostly, except for that bit about Kirk. He's part of the military, and Khan killed hundreds (maybe thousands) of Starfleet members, including all the highest ranked officials. That makes Khan the number one war criminal in their reality. Speaking as a military member, I wouldn't have let that fly either. Khan needed to be apprehended no matter what. Even if you had to betray him to do it. You cant just pardon someone like that and give them a planet to live happily ever after in.
After watching the film a second time, I definitely give it a 9. A low 9, but a 9. The movie fell flat around 2/3 the way in. It just lost it's amazing momentum. But then, when Spock lost his shit, the movie become phenomenal again. The dialogue was generally quick and witty. It did feel a tad forced when they were in that tiny space-craft going to Qo'noS. Also, Scotty almost stole the show. Every moment with him was awesome.But on to my thoughts about the film.
I think Khan got an undeserved shitty rap. Let's analyze and talk about Khan's character for a moment. Khan came from a different time period than the Federation. The Federation is an organization of peace and prosperity between many different humanoid species. Khan was created for, matured in, and conquered lands in one of the worst periods in Human history. It was certainly one of the most barbaric and disgusting periods of history (only the Third World War can be considered more barbaric and dangerous but here's the kicker: the Third World War "arose from the ashes" of the Eugenics war so it really fed the Third World War).
So why did I bring up Khan's background? Because Kirk is an *sshole and an idiot. Lemme explain: Khan was under the impression that Marcus executed EVERY last one of his people. This is genocide (Khan and his people were the last known remnants of the Augments). That makes Marcus' actions not only a war-crime but beyond evil as it constituted, at least to Khan's perceptions, as genuine genocide to his family. So Khan, coming from a very barbaric and warlike time in humanity, did the only thing he knew to do: killed people. He didn't just kill indiscriminately: he made tactical kills. Notice how he destroyed the Section 31 facility? What WAS that facility? It was a facility being used to warmonger against the Klingons. This was against Federation law: especially the dreadnaught class ship that came from that project.
So here comes Marcus, betraying Khan after Khan did all that work for Marcus. Marcus lies and makes it seem as though he killed all of Khan's crew. Marcus was ready to dispose of Khan after he had used him. Khan predicted this kind of treachery by placing his crew in the new torpedoes he designed for Marcus under the assumption that Marcus might betray him. Well, Marcus did betray him and lied about killing his crew so Khan, being the warmongering barbarian that he is, went ape-shit.
But he didn't act out with no control. His lashing out against Marcus was directly calculated and cold. He first destroyed that facility. The facility was the secretive war-machine of Section 31. That was probably THE best target he could have destroyed as far as eradicating the evil Marcus was perpetrating. The deaths were isolated to those working in that facility and had minimal civilian casualty if ANY at all. So Khan did his best to minimize collateral damage while waging a direct war against Marcus. But that was not the end of Khan's plans: that was the beginning. He knew Starfleet protocol dictated that the top-brass of Starfleet meet at HQ to discuss the attack and formulate a plan. That's where he would execute the top-brass of the military that he saw as the perpetrators of genocide against his people.
So Khan was acting in the way he knew best. A warmongering grand chessmaster. Nay, 5 chessmasters rolled into one brain.
At some point, he figured out that Marcus lied about killing his people. Maybe it was when Sulu threatened him with the "new" torps? That might have been when he figured it out. Regardless, when he knew his people were alive, he surrendered to Kirk and tried to do right by his people, STILL. Even after all the shit Marcus put him through, he was willing to try his best to preserve his people.
So this is the part that pisses me off about Kirk: Kirk betrays Khan when Khan was helping him! This is exactly what Marcus had done to Khan that caused Khan to kill Marcus!
Also, Kirk should have agreed to let bygones be bygones when they confirmed Section 31's activities. After Kirk confirmed with Scotty that Khan was telling the truth, he should have said the following: "I will never forgive you for killing Pike. But I understand why you did it. Work with me, within the rules, and I will do right by you and your people. Let's save both our families." Of course, Khan could always say, "Your Federation is no different from my 20th Century military. You use secretive military operations to obtain your logistic goals. You are a dishonest and subversive people; every bit the same as the barbarians you deride." But something tells me that the character may be willing to cooperate with Kirk if Kirk offers him and his people a fair chance to prosper on their own (on a planet that isn't going to blow-up/experience a cataclysm shortly after they settle it).
But, instead of that, we get a Kirk that betrays Khan when Khan was helping Kirk. Spock also makes it seem like he kills all of Khan's people by detonating the torps after transporting them. That was extremely cruel and it caused Khan to go into a rage, again. This time, though, Khan did not calculate his harm against humanity: he crashed the USS Vengeance directly into a populated human city killing hundreds or thousands of innocent people. Think about it: Spock and Kirk caused the deaths of probably thousands of people through their betrayal and dishonest tactics against Khan. Had Kirk not insisted on his self-righteous and hypocritical dogma about sending Khan through a trial and instead, offered understanding and a penance (via saving the Enterprise and his people) for Khan, I'm pretty sure Khan would not have betrayed Kirk. Now, had this Universe's Kirk ALSO offered them a safe planet to stay (one that wouldn't experience and apocalypse), Khan and his people would have probably lived in peace. Nope! Kirk had to be a shithead. There was no reason, at all, for Kirk to betray Khan other than him being an *sshole.
Khan: incorrectly labeled as the villain.
And as Quan said, Spock also double crossing Khan was necessary, and advised by his older self. Otherwise, they would have all been wiped out.
IMO, everyone acted to the best of their abilities and made the right choices. Khan acted the same way anyone would have, as did Kirk and Spock. They all had their motivations. Unfortunately, they just happened to be massively conflicting motivations.
Even Marcus made his douche-bag choices to try to better humanity. His evils basically boiled down to lying and betraying. He didn't actually commit genocide, and didn't do anything wrong outside of Starfleet regulation. Using Khan was definitely morally black (and not very smart) though. Still, Khans acts of war were much worse and on a large scale. Sure, he had his motivations, and anyone would have done the same if they had gone through similar. Still, hard to overlook crashing a dreadnought class starship into a city. I'd say Khan was still the main and biggest villain in that movie.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Agreed mostly, except for that bit about Kirk. He's part of the military, and Khan killed hundreds (maybe thousands) of Starfleet members, including all the highest ranked officials.
No he didn't. Before Kirk decided to betray Khan, Khan had only killed 42 people in the secret facility and maybe a 5-15 of the high-ranking Starfleet leaders.*
Khan didn't kill the thousands of people until AFTER Kirk betrayed him and AFTER Spock made it seem like he just blew up all of Khan's people.
*Excluding the platoon of Klingons, of course.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
And as Quan said, Spock also double crossing Khan was necessary, and advised by his older self. Otherwise, they would have all been wiped out.
That also doesn't make sense. Spock worked with Kirk to find Khan and his people a home planet. That planet experienced an apocalypse shortly after they tried to colonize that planet. From Khan's perspective, in The Original Series, Khan was betrayed and made a fool of, again.
The old Spock is just as culpable and wrong as the young Spock because he did not talk about and actually refused to talk about that history which would have shed light on why Old Spock's Khan also went ape-shit on Kirk and Co., too. That may have prevented Kirk from betraying Khan had young Spock known that Khan was placated just to lose his shit at a perceived death-sentence for him and his people (imagine being given what seemed like a good deal to live in peace with your people on your own planet just to find out, a few months later, that the planet was going to go through a cataclysmic apocolypse which resulted in the deaths of most of your people and your wife...then Khan's actions against Kirk and Co., in "The Wrath of Khan" makes much more sense). It would have at least given Kirk pause before doing that: "Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't betray Khan? Maybe I should let him and his people go on the Vengeance with a promise to not harm humanity." Based on Khan's actions in TOS, Khan would have gone off and lived in peace and held to his word.
This is either the result of poor writing OR, as the Romulans said in Deep Space Nine, just more evidence of Self-Righteous, Hypocritical, Starfleet arrogance. The optimistic side of me would like to believe it was the Romulan stuff. The skeptical said and the loudest side of me says it is quite clearly, poor writing.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
IMO, everyone acted to the best of their abilities and made the right choices.
No, they really didn't. From old Spock to new Kirk, they did not make the right decisions it it cost the lives of tens of thousands of innocent people. Had they made the right decisions, they could have saved tens of thousands of lives.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
Even Marcus made his douche-bag choices to try to better humanity. His evils basically boiled down to lying and betraying.
I don't agree with this, either. Marcus wanted to make a name for himself and start a war which would have resulted in the loss of millions of innocent lives on both sides. Possibly billions of lives.
Originally posted by Arachnid1
He didn't actually commit genocide, and didn't do anything wrong outside of Starfleet regulation.
He made it seem like he committed genocide against the augments to Khan which is why Khan went apeshit and blew up that building and killed several high-ranking Starfleet officers. It does not matter whether or not he actually committed genocide: only that he gave Khan that impression. The deaths of those people are on Marcus' hands. He knew the type of person Khan was and that was exactly why he revived Khan. Additionally, Kirk states onscreen that it is against Starfleet regulation to create a war-ships.
So, yes, Marcus did wrong. He was also plotting against the interests of the Federation of Planets AND Starfleet but instigating a war with the Klingons.
Khan wasn't some misunderstood hero in 'Space Seed' and 'Wrath of Khan' (if that's the angle here). In 'Space Seed' Khan tried to kill Kirk and take his ship after Kirk saved him and his crew from stasis (which Khan's was failing).
Despite Khan's shenanigans, Kirk allowed him, his crew and one of his crew to leave in peace to colonize a planet. The events that caused Ceti Alpha V to become nigh inhabitable was not Kirk's fault and Khan's need for revenge was solely his own.