In the title it says 'celestials', so i presume scarlet witch vs the whole race, which she would evidently get murdered, regenerated,murdered and so on. She still loses to a single celestial to be honest.
She doesn't have power on a multiversal scale, otherwise LT would of blinked her out of existence because she would of been a threat to the multiverse due to her mental status at the time.
Exactly. Wanda's much more of a "universal" type. Though actually... I dunno if her control reached into cosmic type people at all. Celestials eat her soul.
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I read it...so what? LT didn't get involved in the Phoenix Saga, where the M'Kraan Crystal was going to destroy the multiverse. He didn't get involved in AOA, where the M'Kraan Crystal was again going to destroy the omniverse, he didn't get involved in the Dark Phoenix saga, didn't get involved in the Infinity Wars. To be honest...what DOES he get involved in, aside from a failed attempt to stop Thanos with HOTU?
Roma, the OMNIVERSAL guardian took responsibility to try to solve the situation because Wanda's Chaos Wave was going to destroy ALL CREATION...including the White Hot Room - you know, where Phoenix lives.
Sorry guys, SW operates on a level far beyond the Celestials. I challenge you to name feats, because my guess is that all of you know about Celestials by reputation only.
Nowhere in House of M did it state that. Nowhere. Roma said that the wave could expand affecting everything perhaps up to the ascension. She then clarifies by saying all creation could possibly collapse into a blob. So no i dont see where you got the idea that the White Hot Room could have been destroyed.
Also Wanda by all accounts warps reality on a universal scale but the negative effects of her tamperings spilled over into Otherworld because she accidentally ripped a hole in the brane between 616 and Otherworld and it is well documented (The M'Kraan crystal stories) that when the doorways between realities are left open the the exchange and interaction between matter sparks off a destructive wave that if allowed to spill over into alternate realities will eventually collapse creation. The chaos wave wasnt Wandas power. It was the result of her actions (i.e the breach she caused), however it didnt derive from her it wasnt a manifestation of her power. Wanda warped 616. Impressive but certainly no indication of multiversal power.
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Ascension = White Hot Room. They're both the origin point of creation. The Throne of God. EVERYTHING was threatened.
If she could accidentally rip a hole into other realities, then she could intentionally do it, meaning that her power could reach other realities and universes. The Chaos Wave was generated by Scarlet Witch. Think about it - it's called a Chaos Wave and Wanda was known for her Chaos Magic. She created it of her own power and used that chaos wave to change reality - that wave went to other realities but because she had no intent for any realities except her own, the chaos wave caused sheer destruction instead. When the breach was sealed, it sealed the effects of the chaos wave to the intended reality.
In any case, it's beyond anything the Celestials are capable of.
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i think demi's right in at least one regard: in terms of pure in-book feats, the celestials have not shown any ability to warp reality -- destroying a universe isn't really the saem thing, i don't think. they were able to eliminate all traces of the visit to earth, but i don't think that fully qualifies either. clearly they possess ENORMOUS power, but warping reality? i don't know . . .
Nope. Roma said it could expand and consume everything UP TO the ascension. She never said including the ascension which would be a bit ridiculous Demi. She then clarified by saying creation would collapse into a Blob. So no there was no indication or conclusive statement saying that the white hot room could potentially be destroyed or was even threatened
I agree she could probably intentionally rip a whole in a brane however its that action which would set off the chaos wave. It wasnt stated anywhere in House of M that the Chaos wave was generated by Wanda so you're just making assumptions. However it was stated that Wandas manipulations caused a breach and that as a result a" trans temoral tsunami" has been unleashed and could possibly expand enough to collapse the multiverse. Given that the M'kraan stories document a wave being unleashed if the doors between realities are left open, given that theres no mention anywhere that the wave was generated by Wanda as opposed to just being the result of her actions you can hardly use that as a feat to support her in debate. The alteration of 616 however is very much available.
Possibly. Cube beings can warp reality on a global scale and the Celestials as stated are exponentially more powerful than them. Young Franklin Richards can create pocket universes and at full potential can equal a Celestial in power. Given Wandas mental state and the fact that her abilities and their application had to be coordinated by her brother and Xavier i dont believe she could face a Celestial like Exitar.
Damn its against the whole race i didnt see that. In that case i really dont think she could given her mental state and the fact that she required aid to pull off House of M.
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i agree celestials are supposed to be above some of these great reality warpers so clearly it would follow that they could resist the affects of reality warpers. finding PROOF they can do this is tough because of ltd appearances. come to think of it, didn't the dreaming celestial warp reality in some way? can't recall the details . . .
in any event, i agree with gs -- against the whole race i find it difficult to believe she could win.
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Are you kidding me? Roma said, "The chaos wave will reach the Ascension itself". She didn't say, "It'll reach everything up to but not including the Ascension", and she didn't imply it, either. If she says the Chaos wave will reach the Ascension itself, that means, well, that it's going to reach the Ascension itself. You're reaching here, GS. When she says creation will collapse into a blob....the Phoenix and the White Hot Room are part of creation. They were created. It'll all collapse.
A breach in reality by itself doesn't cause a problem. You're incorrectly equating Japfh's statement about the M'Kraan Crystal with Roma's statement. A cracked doorway to realities within the M'Kraan Crystal will cause a blinking out of reality. But a cracked doorway between realties will not. In fact, they're quite commonplace. The Entire Man-Thing run revolved around random openings between realities that needed to be safeguarded. In Exiles, the control center was built over a fissure in realities, which is how they're able to travel through realities. So breaks exist - the problem was the chaos wave WANDA was generating that was escaping that reality. That's what makes THAT break unique.
Wanda, as proven, goes beyond a global scale. She altered the entire 616 - including its timeline. That even includes contact with beings such as Galactus and the extra-dimensional pantheon gods.
Secondly, the Celestials aren't stated as being "exponentially" more powerful. Kubik said to stay way from Celestials because their power exceeds even theirs. Don't exaggerate.
So using circumstantial evidence would, at best, but Celestials on par with Wanda....but direct evidence (actual feats) puts Wanda solidly above them.
Creating a pocket universe isn't much compared to re-creating the existing universe. And even Franklin's feat exceeds anything a Celestial has shown...remember how long it took for a Celestial to UNDO what Franklin did? They had to boil the seas to try to get rid of the Earth! They had to end of sacrificing one of their own just to maintain the pocket universe. I'd put him at full potential far beyond them, too.
Wanda's mental state is a question, but her application wasn't coordinated by her brother - he just came up with the idea. She listened. So what?
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Last edited by demigawd on Nov 28th, 2005 at 02:19 AM
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I find it easy to believe. The celestials combat feats are all physical in nature - for all their power, in combat, it comes down to inflicting physical damage. Against the Destroyer - massive energy blasts. Against Thanos with IG? Throwing planets. No multi-plane, cross-dimensional, billion plane of existence type attacks like the abstracts did. Wanda has already shown that she's beyond physical attacks - what are the Celestials going to do among their PROVEN arsenal?
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Nov 27th, 2005 06:20 PM
I think not. Any celestial eats her soul.
