Nabu got owned by Mordru. We all know how Mordru stacks up to Darkseid ... Granted, he did better against The Spectre. But when Darkseid fought The Spectre, he had a host (meaning more focus for divine power) and was pretty much all out like at the end of the Nabu/Spectre fight at the very beginning (due to Apokolips' aura of evil affecting him) Also, while Nabu hung in much longer, he never clearly hurt the Spectre ... Darkseid did.
In general, I think a high-end Lord of Order is roughly equal to Darkseid in power, except for the wild card of wipeout beams.
Generally, I give Darkseid 7/10 against Hector due to experience, but only 6/10 against Nabu or Kent.
Like Batman said, if you need Darkseid taken care of use this phone number and call in Dr.Fate. Lords of Magic like Dr.Fate and Mordru regularly humiliate large teams Darkseid would be hard-pressed to even take on, much less trash. Though it depends on which Fate we're talking. Some of the weaker Fates may be 50/50. Kent Nelson and "Nabu" have been said to be more powerful than Darkseid and I'd say they've shown that to be true. But Darkseid could possibly catch them with something lucky or unexpected and win. If it's Hector Hall, Darkseid may just be in over his head.
Last edited by Khem-Adam on Sep 12th, 2006 at 06:57 AM
Uh, more like if you need help with a big threat call Fate to keep tabs on it. There's nothing in there implying Fate could take him in an actual fight. In the same story, Darkseid is ready to put a hurting on Fate until Superman steps in and says he'd have to face everyone there, Highfather included, to do it.
Darkseid's already owned Mordru's more powerful version while himself weakened. And I'd have to disagree there ... There was no one Mordru bashed that Darkseid can't. However, he got hurt more than Darkseid would've.
What teams has Fate beaten at all? He sorta banished that small team in Virtue and Vice, and "held back" the JSAers in the battle with Mordru. That's about it.
There is one statement that he's more powerful. There's also a statement that The Lords of Order fear Darkseid, and we have The Lords of Chaos slinking back in fear after he yelled (and no, that looked nothing like they just "decided" to not fight) There's also Darkseid being stated as having no equal in the universe in a comic that Fate appears in, as well as the direct comparison.
Now, where has a Fate ever looked more powerful than Darkseid? The only valid comparison I see is The Kilg%re. And don't bring up the retconned fight -- I disagree with your interpetation for one, but if we use that, might as well use Darkseid owning Fate with a hand-wave in Super Powers.
Last edited by Jimmy-Chan on Sep 12th, 2006 at 09:39 AM
Come to think of it, I don't think Fate or Mordru have done anything Takion, much less Darkseid, would be incapable of. Maybe the KO of Thunderbolt, but aside from that, I think Takion could match pretty much everything they've done.
Darkseid was ready to try at least. His odds of success though are another story. And Batman could have called anyone, but he chose Fate for a reason. The hero acknowledged as being second only to the Spectre.
I doubt that. You're probably referring to something in an alternate future that has not actually happened and/or something pre-Crisis. In present continuity Darkseid would be wise to avoid confrontation with Mordru.
You're right, there's no one Mordru defeated that Darkseid couldn't. But Darkseid would be murdered trying to take them all at the same time. Actually, I take that back. Fate's power defeated Thunderbolt too. That's a single person I don't think Darkseid could. As for getting hurt more, like Hector Hall, Mordru's body is virtually indestructible by physical force. Whatever pain he feels is apparently futile. Darkseid on the other hand has been physically maimed by things Mordru and Fate could simply restore themselves from like nothing happened.
It wasn't just the JSAers, it was an army of about 30 heroes. And he did it with a wave of his hand. Not only that, he did it so that Mordru wouldn't kill all 30 or so of them at the same time. That's crazy powerful. Compare that with Darkseid's struggles against single or small groups of heroes.
And Mordru was wrecking them using Fate's power, by the way.
Made by the bickering Lords of Chaos as a taunt. While the comparison of Darkseid's power to Fate's is made by a member of Darkseid's own circle as a purely objective assessment for it's own sake. Aside from the dubiousness(to be kind) of using something a Lord of Chaos said against it's enemies as truth, we're not talking about those Lords, we're talking about Nabu. So it doesn't matter here anyway.
It does not say Darkseid. You are inserting "Darkseid" into that sentence on your own.
Let's see.
1)Boredly dismissed a combination of JSA and JLAers with a snap of his fingers.
2)Fought the Spectre without getting incinerated to skeletal remains in 2 pages, with the Spectre suggesting Nabu is his peer but Fate's host body is the only reason Spectre had the advantage he did.
3)Grew physically large enough to wrap his arms around planet Earth, and magically put the entire planet back together.
4)Making Darkseid's own servants say he's more powerful than Darkseid.
5)Humbling entire teams with Superman-level heroes at the same time.
6)Being able to call on the power of Jesus Christ like Dr.Strange calls on the power of Agamotto.
The fact that Superman stepped in on Fate's behalf bode pretty well for Darkseid's chances.
Most likely because of Fate's experience dealing with extra-dimensional beings of all kinds and his ability to plan for them. It was his prep abilities more than anything that Batman was banking on IMO.
1. The New Gods are beyond time and space and appear in several timelines. But without getting into semantics, the Darkseid of GDS was specifically stated to be weaker than his current self in that comic
2. Mordru has done nothing Darkseid can't
How? There's like Captain Marvel, Alan Scott, Powergirl, and a bunch of mid levellers. Darkseid's imprisoned Superman and The Infinity Man combined. Imprisoned Godwava Ares, who whupped a crapload of heroes. Imprisoned a Legion team that included Ultra Boy and a youger (but stated to be equally powerful physically) Superman with a hand wave. He created the equal of Takion with a hand wave. Hell, Aggog completely destroyed Orion and Lightray ... But got one-shotted by Darkseid.
Mordru also was seriously hurting from their attacks at times.
If he essentially suckered Thunderbolt as Mordru did, sure he could. He's done similar to Godwave Ares and The Anti-Monitor. Thunderbolt owned Mordru for straight power twice.
Yuga Khan is also someone I consider on T-Bolt's power level, and he stated Darkseid is the only being powerful enough to potentially threaten his life (if not for the father/son clause)
Er, he was looking pretty stunned at parts of that fight.
Darkseid can restore himself from anything if he uses that ability as well. He restored Orion from being ripped in half. He's restored beings from complete vaporization.
When has he ever struggled against small groups of heroes? And Mordru had trouble with single heroes or small groups at times of that arc. I don't really see the big deal with them except for CM, Alan, and PG.
IIRC he was also using the Starheart at points of the fight. And if you want to bring up Fate himself, he's more inconsistent than either of them.
That's bunk. It was another member of his elite not making an objective assessment, but revelling in a source of newfound power. Darkseid's servants, as I've shown, have been prone to shout hyperbolic statements of being greater than Darkseid or to assume a new power source is greater any time they come upon one. It's a running theme. OTOH, the Lords of Chaos stated this in a comic where they themselves did not object when Darkseid stated they feared him, and n fact slinked back when he yelled.
And since Nabu has never been compared to Darkseid ...
"What your friends have unleashed upon New Genesis is a power without equal in the universe. A power that now has no balance to hold it in check. You think you've stopped a threat, but you've only traded it for invincible evil!"
And then cut to Darkseid and some cannon fodder standing over New Genesis. Do you think Highfather was talking about the Easter Bunny?
Which part are you talking about? And which members? A much weaker, older Darkseid froze a Legion team with a hand-wave ... Then young Darkseid unfroze them as easily.
And Darkseid's been treated as Eclipso's peer back when Eclipso had his own series. Regarding Darkseid's fight with The Spectre, aside from that he actually caused Spectre visible pain (which Nabu never managed in their latest battle), it was a different host and he was most likely all-out from the outset. The aura of evil on Apokolips was specifically stated as influencing his behavior, making him want to kill. Later in the same comic, when Darkseid speaks of following The Spectre wherever he'd take the girl, at the cost to other lives, The Spectre states that he will do what's neccessary. Essentially, he implies that he would be unable to stop Darkseid from taking other lives on neutral grounds (though he could continute protecting Anomolie)
Nabu also performed worse than Hector against both Mordru and Curse.
... Darkseid's expended more energy in one second than Apokolips spends in a year. He's Boom Tubed the whole planet. He's teleported it and Daxam. He's created what appears to be his own pocket realities.
Could you stop acting like this is something that hasn't also been said of a GL, then proven wrong? Especially given The Lords of Chaos clearly looked to fear Darkseid and claimed the Lords of Order did too.
Beyond that, "Nabu" was never specified. Godfrey just said the power of a "Lord of Order" must be more powerful. Sounds a whole lot like Mantis' beleif the GL ring could make him more powerful than Darkseid.
Which Darkseid has also done. Although he's never had absolutely no effect on a Superman-leveller as Hector had on Black Adam.
... I'm not sure what this has to do with his track record.
According to Braniac, Darkseid is the only one powerful enough to provide the aid needed against The Anti-Monitor ... In a comic where Fate appeared and was active in the struggle.
Last edited by Jimmy-Chan on Sep 12th, 2006 at 02:27 PM
Except that Dr.Fate isn't known for his prep and Darkseid is not a mystic threat that gives one reason to believe Fate was called for some kind of special expertise. Fate is a person called in as a big gun for his power. No one says "We really need a tactical strategy here. Let's call Dr.Fate of all people and see if he can draw something up for us.". Especially not bleepin' Batman.
If you're saying this to claim that any alternate reality story involving a New God is in-continuity, then no. Alternate realities have no bearing on mainstream stories.
This is wishful thinking in my opinion. Darkseid clearly has been unable to do what Mordru has against DC's heroes.
All of those separate instances combined wouldn't equal the army Mordru was demolishing all at once. Some of these you listed aren't even fights.
I didn't know fighting someone face-to-face and knocking them out was considered suckering.
Right. He apparently owned Mordru so hard that he fell beaten and unconscious at Mordru's feet. I have a feeling Darkseid would "own" Mordru in much the same way.
Sorry, but Darkseid can be pounded into submission or worse by someone's fists just like anyone else. He is nothing like Hector Hall or Mordru. Darkseid can and has been maimed and nearly killed by corporeal attacks. He can't be physically ripped apart without ill-effect as Lords of magic can. He can't be brutal punished and pounded without success as Lords of Magic can.
He struggled(to say the least) with Superman and Wonder Woman just recently. Raker the Green Lantern alone was able to give him skirmish. While Darkseid was dressed in all yellow to specifically have an adavantage, no less.
The big deal is that those three together could could give Darkseid a good fight if not worse. Mordru took on those 3 plus over 20 others. It's not much of a comparison.
Godfrey is from Apokalips and is on Darkseid's side so he has no reason to speak against him. He's thinking this only to himself so it's not a lie. And he hadn't put the helmet on so he wasn't revelling in anything. It was an assessment he made based purely on seeing what Fate was capable of. This is as objective an observation as humanly possible. If anything it's biased in Darkseid's favor given who's saying it.
If you want to call the assembled power of Apokalips the Easter Bunny feel free. Apokalips has much more power and resource than just Darkseid whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not.
Darkseid cannot create realities using only his own personal power. And opening a large boom tube is a far cry from physically growing to the size of a planet yourself and restoring it.
If you'll stop acting like the two situations were alike or that the assessments were made under the same kind of circumstances. Mantis was "revelling in his new power source" as you said and was being affected mentally by the power and taken out of his right mind. Mantis said that himself.
You asked where Dr.Fate has shown to be more powerful than Darkseid. I think it's fairly obvious what Dr.Fate being able to call upon the power of Jesus Christ has to do with that...
I could've sworn I cut out about half of those responses before posting so it wouldn't be so long. Must have hit the back button or something. Wish I'd noticed that before the edit time passed.
Fate used a prep strategy on the Anti-Life Entity, however. That clearly WAS his value in this case. For that matter, Hector used one against Black Adam. He also beat Mordru and Curse each by exploiting their mystical "weaknesses."
The fact that Superman stepped in on Fate's behalf when DS threatened him is more telling, IMO. In fact, notice that this comic portrayed Darkseid's source of power as pure Anti-Life. This is a mini where Anti-Life was repeatedly stated in narration as being "truly infinite" and implied to be the most powerful threat these heroes had faced. If anything, I'd assume the guy tapping into the greatest power source would have the edge over the others.
But really, Cosmic Odyssey isn't any kind of solid proof one way or the other.
It's not an alternate reality. It's a future with a direct connection to the mainstream, and a Darkseid specified as being less powerful thain the "mainstream" version. However, yes, Rock of Ages makes it pretty clear that alternate versions make of "part" of The New Gods.
"For in the game of Gods, creation itself is the playing feild. Sometimes Darkseid wins, sometimes we win. Each time, the universe is remade, as you have witnessed. In the end, balance is served."
Except that he hasn't ...
I still fail to see what's so impressive about demolishing an "army" of mid levellers. Darkseid scares larger armies of them on a regular basis.
Mordru got owned and imprisoned by Thunderbolt. Later he busted out and T-Bolt was KOed. Looked to me like he caught T-Bolt unawares. T-Bolt likewise owned him (granted, his neck had been slit, but you say that type of thing is trivial to him) in the IC crossover JSA arc.
Dude, Mordru was clearly stunned by physical force in both Princes of Darkness and the JSA IC crossover. Hector got owned by Black Adam and KOed by an energy blast rection from Johnny Sorrow. They can be KOed. Two Macrolatts inhabiting Superman and Nuklon's bodies KOed Kent with one double-punch.
They can transmutate injuries away, but so can Darkseid.
He was owning Superman before WW's interference. There was no "fight" as such between him and WW. She just teleported in by surprise to deflect his beams. Darkseid's owned Superman and one more powerful than him at the same time.
In The Weird's mini, Superman did quite a bit better against The Weird than Kent did. He was also considered more powerful than Kent by the Macrolatts, who inhabited his body instead of Fate's.
And in the same comic, Darkseid crushed his Lantern ring with one hand as it was charging, attempting to attack. He hand no trouble crumbling it in his fingers. Without yellow.
Hector's been owned by Black Adam.
Darkseid easily imprisoned Superman and The Infinity Man. While those are just two, I-M is more powerful than Supes. A much weaker Darkseid also froze the Legion which included 2 top tiers and a bunch of mid levellers almost as numerous as Mordru's team with a hand wave -- while mind controlling Orion, Barda, Firestorm, Lobo, a GL, and a Martian simultaneously. The more powerful "young" Darkseid, closer to current in power, unfroze them all with a hand wave and withstood a blast that went on to kill his older self.
You do realize you're failing to address the context of the scene which I've repeatedly pointed out? He was revelling over a newfound power, and let out the typical "OMG I'm now greater than Darkseid!" that Mantis likewise said in a mirror scenario when he found a GL ring.
We've been over this ...
1. Darkseid's energy powers > all the energy on Apokolips
2. There is ZERO evidence it came from the "assembled power of Apokolips." The only part of the comic that gives us a clear idea of how it was done is when he's about to take out the last sanctuary of The Kilg%re -- and we clearly see he's about to do it with a hand-blast.
It sure looks like the human form avatar he created/inhabited, Dark Side, did exactly that.
... What? He created a Boom Tube capable of returning Apokolips from the size of a planet in our dimension to the size of a galaxy in its own dimension, its proper size. That's a much more impressive size-changing feat.
WTF? He clearly states that in order to get out of Darkseid punishing him. When he sees that Darkseid is angry, he completely ignores that, and shows that he's confident he could destroy his master. This is EXTREMELY straightforward. He says he had a moment of madness when he made the claim to get DS off his back, but when he sees it won't work, he attacks and claims the GL ring will kill Darkseid, and is dumbfounded when he sees it having no effect. It's the exact same thing, and I'm, fairly sure Godfrey would've reacted the same way if he knew Darkseid was watching him.
Kalibak once beleived he had absorbed Darkseid's full power when he was cut off at a small fraction of it. He's also stated it would take a power greater than Darkseid's to defeat him. Virmun Vundabar thought he'd caught Darkseid in a vulnerable moment in the past, and paid for it with his life. This is a running theme.
There is simply no way you can objectively claim Godfrey revelling in a newfound power source is better than The Lords of Chaos not only not objecting when DS says they fear him, but claiming the Lords of Order do too. At best, the statements cancel each other out.
Not necessarily. The New Gods all tap into The Source to some degree, and several comics have portrayed The Source as another name/manifestation of The Presence. It's the degree to which the power can be tapped that counts.
One other thing about Darkseid/Supes ... Notice Superman doing well against Darkseid almost exclusively involves DS ignoring his powers and physically slugging it out. When Mordru stopped using his magics and tried to slug with Powergirl, he got owned.
Since so much of this is distortion I'll just hit a few hot points.
It's not only an alternate future but a pre-Crisis alternate future on top of that. The Mordru of now didn't even exist pre-Crisis, which shows how invalid this is. The current Mordru was only introduced post-Crisis. Things changed. In the present, post-Crisis DCU Mordru's future shows he will be old and mad by the time of the Legion and not be the monster he is now. Old pre-Crisis, alternate reality stories don't mean anything to the here and now mainstream. In the mainstream Mordru could very possibly murder Darkseid.
You're supposing this completely out of nowhere. They fought face-to-face and T-bolt is beaten. Mordru emerges yelling how they don't yet understand his power as a direct referrence to his being able to defeat Thunderbolt. There is no point where T-bolt is shown unawares nor is this the first time Dr.Fate's power has outdone Thunderbolt.
And once again you totally ignore the circumstances to distort what really happened. Mordru was severely weakened when Thunderbolt "owned" him and his powers were out of whack. And funny how you don't say anything about the fact that that really was a sucker shot unlike when Mordru took him down. A sneak attack from behind while Mordru didn't know T-bolt was there. And Mordru still didn't go down despite this sneak attack. He had to be teleported away.
It's one thing to stun Mordru's corporeal body, it's another to do him any effective damage. Because of the nature of his being his body can be physically beaten bloody without any meaningful effect to him. Hector had mental blocks that barred him from accessing the true power until right before Princes of Darkness which was why he couldn't do the same as Mordru and could be KOed by normal attacks. He didn't learn how to make his body immune until around the time of his second fight with Mordru.
You can claim "owned" all you want, but for all this "owning" the Lords took all the punishment in stride and whomped all their opponents in return. Generally speaking, the person who loses is considered the owned one. Not the person who wins.
Darkseid has been nearly eviscerated and fatally ripped up by Doomsday, been on the verge of being killed in his hand-to-hand fight with Orion, been beaten blind and into submission by Superman's fists. He's not like the Lords of Magic no matter how you slice it. Darkseid would and has been severely injured by things that would be inconsequential to Dr.Fate or Mordru.
Everyone with super powers taps into the Source, not just the New Gods. Saying the New Gods tap the Source isn't much of a counter to Dr.Fate being able to directly call upon the power of Jesus Christ.
Last edited by Khem-Adam on Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:43 AM
Either of you have JSA 42? It details Mordru's current past[in vague detail, not really going into many specific instances], dating back to the dawn of time, alongside the other Lords of Order and Chaos.
Mordru as he is now, is actually one of those Lords, having taken over the body of Arion the mage of Atlantis, who was considered the most powerful mage in the DCU, and former ruler of Atlantis.
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Sep 11th, 2006 02:36 PM
Thanx Inhuman!!!
Granted, he did better against The Spectre. But when Darkseid fought The Spectre, he had a host (meaning more focus for divine power) and was pretty much all out like at the end of the Nabu/Spectre fight at the very beginning (due to Apokolips' aura of evil affecting him) Also, while Nabu hung in much longer, he never clearly hurt the Spectre ... Darkseid did.
