The question here is:
Can Juggs be stopped by physical force?
Now King Thor, Odin, and RKT can remove the enchantment and then stop him. But using only force and assuming the ground is unbreakable I would say that Juggs can't be stopped. Tripping Juggs like what what Hulk did doesn't count right?
Juggernaut CAN be forced with pure physical force alone ....the only PROBLEM is that it requires the person doing so to exert more force than that of bestowed upon Marko by Cyttorak.
that is the entire problem there.
What I would like to see is Juggernaut vs SMP, with the objective being for SMP to stop him.
In such a case I believe SMP could stop Jugz in his tracks (we have to assume that the piece of earth they are doing this on will not quake and tear apart ....assume that it is an area comprised of rigged adamantium) based on SMP's past strength feats (ranging from direct feats like moving planets, to more obtuse ones like breaking through dimensions and even snatching Mxy from a higher dimension).
In terms of force SMP can do it, and thus it is possible to stop Juggernaut .....it is just that EXTREMELY FEW characters can do it.
what was Onslaught tapping into then?
he KO'd Juggernaut.
simple answer, yes Juggernaut CAN be stopped physically. in fact so can Cyttorak. neither possesses infinite power, like say a Beyonder, nor can consume infinite energies to increase their powers indefinitely (like Galactus, Celestials - Hyperspace (?)).
the people who keep shouting "nothing can stop the juggernaut" or "he can't be physically hurt" never seem to pay any mind to the fact that juggernaut gets 'his' powers from a being who himself is NOT omnipotent. that one fact should make this argument redundant.
oh and War Hulk wasn't tapping into anything Hulk couldn't, Hulk was the nexus of realities before and after pawning juggernaut. the Celestial tech merely redirected those energies. also, War Hulk wasn't capable of the infinite amping thing that regular Hulk does, iirc.
Just because Juggernaut was stop doesn't mean he can be beaten he still indestructible durability and immeasuable stamina where Hulk's durability might be at that level but I doubt his stamina is.
yup WWH Hulk stopped him, causing the mansion's foundations to become unstable.
no, +because+ juggernaut can be and has been stopped, he clearly does not command overpowering force. he can be and has been pawned too.
there is no "indestructible" to juggernaut's powerset, merely a very high durability level.
Hulk's durability is beyond anything the juggernaut could affect. it's established that his durability, speed, stamina, resistance to TP etc all +increase+ along with his strength. and since he +cannot+ suffer fatigue, he is totally immune to poisons remember, he will only get stronger, better, fitter as he exerts himself.
no they don't "also show ...", really shoddy logic there .
the tech, according to Apocalypse himself, was meant to feed off the energies Hulk generated, the nexus energies. it harnessed those energies that's all.
remember, the Celestial tech analysed Hulk and posited that he may have sufficient energies to cause The Celestials problems. which is the very reason why Apocalypse got a hold of him in the first place.
and moreover, I seem to recall that Hulk couldn't amp his strength during that period. remember also, that Hulk - during WWH - without the Celestial tech matched and stopped juggernaut without even exerting himself, in far quicker time than War Hulk did. that it had the same effect that a godblast had when it stopped juggernaut. it caused the foundations to give way (or rather, in this instance, to begin to give way) because the juggernaut could not move forward.
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Last edited by janus77 on Feb 28th, 2008 at 02:58 PM
Look at SMP ....the dude is a bl@@dy beast! Pwning everyone and everything, ranging from entire planets, to legions of Green Lanterns, to dimensional barriers.
Hombre even broke into the 5th dimension and kidnapped Mxy of all people, and then proceeded to torture the poor chap!
Now, SMP is nigh invulnerable, he is nigh unstoppable, and the guy has basically been kicking butt and taking names since he first cried in a comic book cover!
But he is NOT invulnerable, and he is NOT unstoppable. It is just that his levels are SO HIGH that he might as well be invulnerable and unstoppable ....but he is not. If he continues mucking about at the same rate he is doing now, he will run into some chap who will basically break his will, break his back, and break his streak!
Same thing with the Juggernaut.
What powers him is the demon/god/entity/whatever called Cyttorak!
The thing is, Cyttorak is extremely powerful, but he is NOT omnipotent. This is not a version of the Spectre with full clearance from the Presence ....this is more akin to Hawk and Dove who are powered by a Lord of Chaos and a Lord of Order respectively.
Actually that is the best way to look at Juggernaut ....if he was in DC he would be powered by either a Lord of Chaos or a Lord of Order.
Now, such lords can be quite powerful (think of Nabu, the most powerful Lord of Order), and their powers are EXTREME ....but they are NOT omnipotent!
Same thing with Cyttorak in Marvel ....he is NOT all-powerful. He just happens to be exceedingly powerful.
And there is a MAJOR difference between being all-powerful, and being super-duper-fragilistic-expialidocious powerful!
Back to SMP .....his levels of power are extremely high, but he is not unstoppable.
Going to the Lord of Chaos and Order .....they are really potent, and their avatars (e.e.g Hawk and Dove, and even Dr. Fate) are very powerful. But they can be destroyed ......let alone their avatars .....as happened when Spectre killed the Lord of Chaos and the Lord of Order that powered Hawk and Dove in one shot, and Hawk and Dove ended up powerless.
Jumping over to Nabu .....his levels of power are insane, and looking at Dr. Fate he is basically Superman strong, fast, and resilient .....and with an @$$ load of magical power, the magical experience of Nabu himself, and a Universe existing within his helmet (well, before Spectre burnt it out). But Nabu is NOT omnipotent.
Now, going to Cyttorak ....he is another exceedingly powerful entity (although now in Marvel), and his powers are prodigious (as can be seen in the Juggernaut, or in the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak that Dr. Strange keeps pulling out every now and then). However, he is NOT omnipotent ....
Whcih brings me full circle to Juggernaut .....he is only unstoppable AS LONG AS the power that is opposing him (physical or otherwise) is LESS THAN THAT of Cyttorak. The moment whatever is opposing him is putting forth more horsepower than Cyttorak, then Juggernaut WILL BE stopped.
A volkswaggen will seem unstoppable to a bunch of beavers (since the little creaures cannot match the horsepower of the engine, but put that same car against a tractor and the picture suddenly changes. Suddenly the car seems puny and useless against superior might, because it is now facing something that is more powerful than its engine.
Juggernaut is NOT invulnerable, and he is NOT unstoppable. He just appears to be because most of his opponents are weaker than he (and Cyttorak) is.
Let him cross over to the DCU and face up against SMP after one of his planet-busting, Lantern crushing jounts
^^ Co-signed, all that Apocalypse's tech did was tap into Hulk's energies in a more direct manner. In other words, instead of Hulk tapping into his power source subconsciously, it directly tapped into whatever power source Hulk was using and used it.
It's kind of like the equivilant to using the power gem - most users of it simply tap into it's powers subconsciously, but when Thanos found out how to use it's full abilities he was able to do outlandish feats such as smash Captain America's shield with a single punch, etc.. Same principle here - Celestial tech allowed Hulk to tap into this field of energy directly instead of having to amp up subconsciously over time.
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Feb 27th, 2008 10:21 PM
hmm Hals ring can contain a planet destroying blast so i say he stops at Hal.
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