Anakin takes Vader after a long fight, and I believe Sidious would take Mace, sure in the film Mace took him down in thd duel but Sidious faked the Force-Duel part of it.
Anakin is more agile and a much more capable lightsaber duelist than Vader is, and would very, very likely overwhelm him in a duel - unless Vader attempted to bring his superior command of the Force to bear against Anakin (which I doubt would happen, given Vader's tendancy to engage in lightsaber duels primarily before using the Force as a "last resort" measure - it was never his weapon of choice), and even then, Anakin's speed and ferocity would probably allow him to close the distance and turn it into a close-combat fight, which Vader wouldn't last long in.
Mace versus Sidious is harder to gauge. Mace defeated Sidious in their duel in RotS, as Darthsith has reminded us. But, an obvious indication of Sidious not giving the duel everything he had is when you compare his fight with Mace to his fight with Yoda - in which the Emperor fights much harder and much smarter (with the Force, too). Mace is the superior lightsaber duelist, armed with Vaapad and Shatterpoint. I don't see the Emperor winning a straight up blade-to-blade fight.
However, Sidious is a considerably stronger Force user than Mace, and normally fights with a bigger dash of self preservations which contributes to cunning and effective (albeit a bit... cowardly?) tactics. I see him beating Mace overall. And, if not, Anakin will manhandle Vader long enough for them to annihilate Mace.
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
Account Restricted
Gideon i agree with you up to a certein point, Yes anakin would > vaders ass in saber combat, and vader wouldnt be stupid enough to go ahead and challenge anakin in a lightsaber match because he knows he will get his ass wiped. It is highly likely he would bring in the command of the force to destroy anakin rather than be a fool to grab a lightsaber and go ahead to face anakin.
He was once anakin, he knows he has no chance against his former self with the lightsaber dueling. And when he knows that, he goes ahead and kills his opponents with the force. One thing to clear up though. Vaders force powers ARE his weapons of choice, we see him do things like that so often in the EU like empire comics
Yeah, and since when was Vader strong enough in the force to be able to easily take out his younger self, without having to engage him in saber combat?
Anakin does things far more impressive with the force than Vader does, such as taking down that giant 100 (? ish) foot statue in the RotS videogame. What's Vader's greatest feat?
A better point, Sith'ari, would be Anakin yelling and collapsing a roof (which nearly killed Count Dooku, if I remember correctly). I don't think what he did in the video game was canon.
Well I would have listed that, but that was an uncontrolled use of the force, he can't actively do that kind of stuff in a battle scenario, whereas the thing he did in the game was quite controlled. And I'm pretty sure it's canon, Advent checked up on it at SW.com, and it seems to be valid.
Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Lifting weights and lifting ass.
Account Restricted
Big deal, size matters not if i recall.
And by the way, canon? i dont think so,the ROTS game strays from the movie greatly, when did anakin ever beat mace in a duel? and when did anakin ever get into a fight before he slaughtered the CIS council? And why did anakin stab instead of behead vount dooku? Btw, the game is full of shit, how the hell can even vader summon lightning? It contradicts every source and it contradicts the movie, And since it contradicts the movie it should be refuted as non-canon as you are so damm fond of speaking of, Sith'ari
Vader has acomplished far more, killing some one a long distance away, taking down tanks the size of an AT-AT, using an entirewaterfall to drown a jedi and he killed 30-40 rebel soldiers in eaw with a simple force wave.
Face it The sithari, you obviously hate vader alot because acstyles pwned you in the vader vs bane thread where he proved vader > bane in saber combat.
Again sith'ari, vader is 80% as powerful as the emperor. His power on the force is obviously powerful enough to surpase every PT character save for mace windu and yoda. Claiming vader is weak would make sidious look weak but only slightly stronger
Last edited by BoratBorat on Jan 4th, 2007 at 10:34 PM
Size does matter, Yoda's full of shit. Unless it's more, or as impressive to pick up an apple and throw it compared to picking up something like an X-Wing.
I also didn't think so previously either before a month or so ago, due to things such as what you list below, however, I researched what I've written previously, and proven otherwise. It is canon, things that are a clear contradiction or for gameplay alone (such as the Force lightning) aren't valid, albeit. Although, what Anakin did with the statue doesn't provide any inconsistencies, from what I gather, so it would thusly be canon. The following two statements are where the conclusion of the Episode III video game being canon is made absolute:
In the same thread, I believe on page 67, Leland Chee also states this in regards to the game's continuity errors:
"Jocasta Nu and Serra Keto deaths are continuity; Cin Drallig's is not (he doesn't even wear the same costume as he does in the movie) nor are any other discpencies between the game and the movie. Some of the "deleted scene" levels from the Trade Federation cruiser levels might fit in. Obviously, the alternate ending is non-continuity."
So, it's quite apparent that if Serra Keto and Jocastu Nu's demises in the game follow continuity, then the game - as a whole - is canon. Anything that doesn't contradict the movie, other materials, or is considered gameplay is non-canon, everything else isn't labeled as such.
Everything you've state below is already addressed with this, so I'm not going to write a response to something unwarranted of one.
"Refuted"? That word doesn't really even make sense in the context of what you meant it as, lol. Perhaps you meant "regarded"?
As for the actual point, contradictions are dealt with case by case to ensure that inconsistencies made by "C"-canon material isn't automatically regarded as a pile of shit, and completely "N"-canon. That usage is always in effect.
Splinter of the Mind's Eye contradicts on a few levels, yet overall it is still canon, same with things like LoE and the Clone Wars microseries, or the novelizations.
I lol'd at that one.
By the way, where does Darth Vader actually do this? Quote, source, and page number. If it's a game, it can be said it's merely gameplay, and since it's not definitive, the feat is irrelevant.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
The thing is that the ROTS game is 100% uncanon. It is completely off from the movies and cannot be used as a source in an argument.
Anyway, I can see Vader taking Anakin in a fight through heavy use of the Force and the fact that his suit is lightsaber resistent, giving him an extra advantage. Mace and Sidious fight for a long time. Mace would lose to Sidious in a full on fight after a time, but it would be a very long time, longer than it will take for Vader to take out Anakin. With Vader's help, Sidious goes down.
__________________ http://darthglentract.tripod.com/index.html Go Jawa's!!
Glentract, no offence, but I'm not seeing Vader take Anakin. Advent's gonna come here any time and crush that argument with her "Anakin-Can-Beat-Vader" bag of tricks, and it's the truth.
Likewise, if Sidious fights against Mace like he did against Yoda... it's not going to be that long of a fight.
Well, I don't imagine Sidious having a bunch of Senate Pods to through at Mace and we've already seen that Mace can defend himself from Sidious' lightning. And if you take the ROTS novel as canon, which appears to me to have become the general mindset, the following quotes support Mace being able to handle Sidious for a very long time, if not defeat him. p.330 - "There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear which gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-
Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow [Palpatine]; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office."
I'll tackle Advent's arguments on Vader when I see them.
__________________ http://darthglentract.tripod.com/index.html Go Jawa's!!
The setting of the fight has not been specified; for all you know, it could be. However, if you'd like to go to the novelization, I would like to point out that your point of "Mace being able to handle Sidious's lightning" is rendered useless as I seem to recall Mace yelling out: "Anakin, he's too strong for me!" during the whole lightning shebang. Then, I'd like to point out Sidious's inferior position, the fact that Mace himself was obviously struggling, and that Sidious "feigned weakness" - meaning he could have kept it up if he chose to do so. The only one who was truly weak in that situation was Mace.
Likewise, that was when Mace submerged himself into Vaapad. The first part of the duel was Sidious dominating the fight. He drove Mace back into the main office (despite Mace's well known aggressive and offensive style of fighting) and the rest of the fight went back and forth.
I agree; Mace + Vaapad + Shatterpoint = Sidious losing in a lightsaber fight. But that he was nearly able to overpower Mace despite an inferior position and being fried in the face would simply to imply that the Force gap between them is considerable, whereas the novelization seemed to indicate that their raw bladework seemed was even so much as it "could go on forever - if Vaapad weren't Mace's only gift."
Anyway, I'll agree that on paper, it may seem like Anakin has a slight edge over Vader, when you take into account all their powers and skill, but, then again, on paper, Anakin would crush Obi Wan into the ground... fast.
What gave Obi the win, then? He knew Anakin, much like Vader does. They both know his strengths and weaknesses. They both know what he is capable of with the force and with a saber. They are both level-headed, while Anakin is brash and arrogant.
Considering the fact that Vader knows everything about Anakin, and, has shown superior force powers, and could use them as a method to take Anakin out, I'd say Vader after a tough fight. He is smart enough to use the force against him.
If Mace can survive long enough against Sidious (he has a good chance, seeing as Sidious tends to take some time to seek out an advantage, and Vader is using the force to overwhelm Anakin, something that might take less time than a lightsaber battle would), then Sidious is double-teamed an loses.
Hey, Glentract, can you read? I know you're supposedly some 1337 math whiz kid, but are you that blind that you cannot see what I've written above your post?
The Episode III game is canon, try again.
"Tackle"? Don't kid yourself, son.
__________________
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent." - Sagacious Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn.
Jan 4th, 2007 02:39 AM
http://darthglentract.tripod.com/index.html Go Jawa's!!
