Trials: Sidious and Dooku

Welcome to the Trials: Sidious and Dooku thread. Here, we will discuss which of whom is more powerful. The noble and talented Count Dooku of Serenno, or his master, the manipulating and enigmatic Sidious, aka Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine.

Throughout the versus threads, there is a schism between those who believe Sidious is stronger, such as myself, and those who disagree, such as Sorgo. I finally figured there ought to be a thread about it, as the argument has seeped into various other threads, which is partially credited to myself, unfortunately.

Now why would this not belong in the versus forum, you ask? Because, first and foremost, there are ways to defeat an opponent who is even more powerful than yourself, through the usage of 'quick thinking' or intellect. Such as Obi-Wan Kenobi against Anakin Skywalker. So, we are not comparing, necessarily, who would win in a duel, but who is more powerful.

Please, when you post, be sure to support your opinion with evidence. Do not simply state "Dooku/Sidious is more powerful than Dooku/Sidious."

Sidious -

Sidious has been identified, by the official website and Lucas himself, as the most powerful practitioner of the Dark Side in the movies. The site, even mentions him as the most powerful 'in modern times'. So, I guess it is without argument that Sidious is undoubtably the more powerful Sith. And yet even this is not enough to quell the non-believers who assume Dooku is stronger.

Many believe that Dooku is stronger simply because he bested Mace in times previous to The Phantom Menace, and Mace happened to defeat Sidious in Revenge of the Sith. Thusly, it is assumed, Dooku must be stronger. But is that really so ?

Both Dooku 'and' Mace would have had a lot of time to improve upon their skills. It isn't set in concrete that Dooku even progressed more. It is likely, considering that Dooku was already well on his way (if he had not already) mastered Makashi during this time. Now. The website isn't even specific on the terms of the defeat. As Nai or Faunus pointed out, Dooku and Windu could've sparred, and the score have been dead even, 5-5 - and the website 'still' could've worded that Dooku beat Mace, simply because he did, even in this instance. Dooku 'BEAT' Mace 5 times, and Mace beat Dooku five times as well.

Also, compare the fights. I will not argue that Mace didn't beat Sidious legitimately. But is that really how Sidious normally fights? Just with his saber ability? No. In the duel against Mace, he didn't use his Force powers until he was in a position that they could be negated by Mace's lightsaber. Would the fight have gone differently if Sidious used his Force powers (which we can assume is greater than Mace's own) ? Perhaps so.

But that is speculation.

So. We enter the only other duel that Sidious engaged in, which was the one where he fought Yoda in the Senate Arena. All of the known sources that we have, including the site and novels, indicate that the battle was a stalemate, with Sidious coming out the victor simply because his goals were realized. The website states that 'the Emperor was too powerful for Yoda to defeat'. Lucas didn't comment on the victor during the duel. He never indicated either beat the other.

But let us analyze:

Sidious is the only person in the PT to ever put Yoda significantly to the test. He is, in fact, the only enemy Yoda has faced in modern times that has actually landed an immense and significant blow to Yoda.

a) Sidious electrocuted Yoda with lightning shortly after Yoda defeated the Red Guard.

b) Sidious disarmed Yoda when they landed on the same pod.

The ROTS original script states that Yoda disarmed Sidious. Yet curiously enough, we never see it happen - and again - Lucas doesn't comment on it. The original script, of any movie, is only valid if the same scenes are depicted during the movie itself. Honestly. What good is a script that does not convey the same scenes that the movie does ? No good, in fact.

Now. Sidious simply could've de-activated the saber and switched to ranged assaults, considering that he was unable to find an advantage against Yoda in saber-to-saber battle. It is highly possible that this happened, considering that Sidious is a much more capable Force user than saber combatant.

As for the duel itself. We see Sidious flee when Yoda pushes him across the room. The blow is enough to make Sidious fear for his life, and he attempts to flee. His confidence is obviously bolstered. But 'fear' is a fickle thing. They say that dogs are at their most dangerous when they are cornered. Perhaps this is the same for Sidious. Simply because one has fear of another does not make them powerless.

When Sidious ignited his blade, Yoda flew into the air, over Sidious's head and lashed out twice. Both were blocked by Sidious. Yoda flipped against the chancellor's podium and went back over Sidious, landing in front of him. Sidious's blade was aimed at Yoda's. They both charged again. The stances of offensive and defensive past between both of them. A few times, Yoda lashed out with his blade, only to be parried or blocked by Sidious. Then, Sidious would lash out, and hit nothing but Yoda's blade, or air.

The fight proceeded to the Senate Arena. While they were on the Chancellor's pod, both moved about. Sidious started off in the seat, slashing about as Yoda avoided his blows. Yoda then landed and forced Sidious below, where he would try to strike at the Dark Lord, only to be blocked again, and the stances to be exchanged once more. As they rose, neither was besting the other. Yoda and Sidious kept exchanging the offensive and defensive positions regularly.

Sidious and Yoda also moved quicker. And, according to Lucas, it was 'designed' to be that way. Not because of a stuntman and CGI. Lucas purposely intended for this fight to be even quicker than the one against Dooku and Yoda, implying that both deeply desired to kill the other.

When we returned to the duel, Yoda was dodging pods left and right. Sidious was stationary on an activated pod, and was chucking, according to Lucas, 'handfuls' of pods at Yoda, who dodged and scrambled up all of them. Yoda had no real defense against Sidious, and tried desperately to return the battle to melee combat, igniting his saber twice. However. Sidious threw one of the pods, and Yoda caught it. He held it suspended in mid-air as Sidious cackled. Yoda then tossed it back. Sidious stood still for a moment, and inclined his head, and it finally registered that Yoda finally chucked one back. He jumped from the pod he was on, and fell to a pod several stories below.

He looked around for Yoda, who landed beside him on the pod's edge. Yoda gripped his saber and ignited it. Sidious reached an arm out and blasted the saber from his hands, sending it to the floor below. Sidious then blasted the lightning in a continuous flow. Yoda kept it at bay, but was forced to remain stationary. Sidious moved closer, only a few feet away from Yoda now. Sidious cackled evilly, and Yoda leaned back, pain and effort etched on his face.

But then, he turned back around and glared full of determination at Sidious, who saw what Yoda was going to do, and his eyes widened in fear and shock.

A blast ripped Yoda and Sidious apart. Sidious flipped over backwards, but caught the end of a pod. Yoda was sent flying down to the floor below. And as he moved to get up, he heard Sidious's devious cackle echo around the room.

Yoda knew then that he had failed. His saber was destroyed and it took immense effort to stop the lightning. He had no offensive Force powers, and no saber. In melee combat or in Force combat, the odds were stacked against him, so he fled.

Victor: A stalemate at best. But if one were to get technical, Sidious.

I really dont see how people could believe Dooku is stronger, Dooku pretty much admits it himself that Sidious is stronger in the ROTS novel and in Dark Rendevous.

Indeed. I could argue a lot on this:

a) Dooku NEVER disarmed Yoda, or even landed a blow on him, but Sidious did.

b) Dooku FEARED Sidious and was in AWE of him. Please cite the novels of Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil (both canon).

c) Dooku RARELY got the advantage during his saber duel with Yoda, even though Yoda had no desire to harm him; at least not on the level he did with Sidious.

d) Dooku is NOT the more powerful Sith.

e) Dooku tried to CONVERT Anakin to the Dark Side during the assault on Invisible Hand. Perhaps he needed Anakin to kill Sidious ?

---

In the Force, there's nothing that indicates the Count as being superior. He's not the stronger Sith. He's done nothing that Sidious hasn't done with the Force. And as for saber skills, I could see him being his slight superior or equal. But most around here deem it otherwise.

---

Conclusion: I myself believed Dooku was vastly superior to Sidious in saber dueling, and that Yoda was just the victim of bad luck. But my opinion has been changed, ever so slightly. Do I believe Sidious could beat Yoda any day of the week? HELL no. But do I believe he holds an EXCELLENT chance? Yes.

And do I believe Dooku is capable of defeating Sidious ? I sure do. Do remember. There are ways to defeat more powerful opponents. But do I think Sidious has a greater chance ? Yes.

DR and LoE are canon? 😕

Point A through point D are all valid, though C is a little flakey, but E...well...Dooku knew that the plan was to convert Anakin, or something along those lines.

No such thing as luck, remember? 😉

Originally posted by Escape81
Indeed. I could argue a lot on this:

a) Dooku NEVER disarmed Yoda, or even landed a blow on him, but Sidious did.

b) Dooku FEARED Sidious and was in AWE of him. Please cite the novels of Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil (both canon).

c) Dooku RARELY got the advantage during his saber duel with Yoda, even though Yoda had no desire to harm him; at least not on the level he did with Sidious.

d) Dooku is NOT the more powerful Sith.

e) Dooku tried to CONVERT Anakin to the Dark Side during the assault on Invisible Hand. Perhaps he needed Anakin to kill Sidious ?

---

In the Force, there's nothing that indicates the Count as being superior. He's not the stronger Sith. He's done nothing that Sidious hasn't done with the Force. And as for saber skills, I could see him being his slight superior or equal. But most around here deem it otherwise.

---

Conclusion: I myself believed Dooku was vastly superior to Sidious in saber dueling, and that Yoda was just the victim of bad luck. But my opinion has been changed, ever so slightly. Do I believe Sidious could beat Yoda any day of the week? HELL no. But do I believe he holds an EXCELLENT chance? Yes.

And do I believe Dooku is capable of defeating Sidious ? I sure do. Do remember. There are ways to defeat more powerful opponents. But do I think Sidious has a greater chance ? Yes.

Lol your good man, Im learning alot from your technique.

Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious -

[B]Sidious has been identified, by the official website and Lucas himself, as the most powerful practitioner of the Dark Side in the movies. The site, even mentions him as the most powerful 'in modern times'. So, I guess it is without argument that Sidious is undoubtably the more powerful Sith. And yet even this is not enough to quell the non-believers who assume Dooku is stronger.

Although the Databank can be incorrect or misleading at times, Sidious is the most Dark side practitioner of his time, but this will not make him more powerful than Dooku.

Because: There is a divine between the most power user of the Dark side and the most power user of the Force itself.

Sure Sidious was a Dark side master, but does this truly make him stronger in the Force than Dooku? No.

Many believe that Dooku is stronger simply because he bested Mace in times previous to The Phantom Menace, and Mace happened to defeat Sidious in Revenge of the Sith. Thusly, it is assumed, Dooku must be stronger. But is that really so ?

Many believe that Sidious is stronger simply because he beholds the rank of "Master" and Dooku holds the Rank of "Apprentice". In time we have seen that the Apprentice will sooner or later pass the Master in power or try to take over, but it was somewhat different in Sidious and Dooku's situation?

Both Dooku 'and' Mace would have had a lot of time to improve upon their skills. It isn't set in concrete that Dooku even progressed more. It is likely, considering that Dooku was already well on his way (if he had not already) mastered Makashi during this time. Now. The website isn't even specific on the terms of the defeat. As Nai or Faunus pointed out, Dooku and Windu could've sparred, and the score have been dead even, 5-5 - and the website 'still' could've worded that Dooku beat Mace, simply because he did, even in this instance. Dooku 'BEAT' Mace 5 times, and Mace beat Dooku five times as well.

Hmm... Alot of people assume that because Mace was younger and more able, he may have surpassed Dooku because apparently, he is younger and has a bigger Margin to gain Experience. HUH?

Dooku still remains to have three decades of Experience over Mace, new found darkened powers and probably a deadly new Experience with Makashi, considering he does not have to hold his emotions back with the Form any longer. Why would the Database say that Dooku won if they tied during the fight? Doesn't make clear sense at all.

Also, compare the fights. I will not argue that Mace didn't beat Sidious legitimately. But is that really how Sidious normally fights? Just with his saber ability? No. In the duel against Mace, he didn't use his Force powers until he was in a position that they could be negated by Mace's lightsaber. Would the fight have gone differently if Sidious used his Force powers (which we can assume is greater than Mace's own) ? Perhaps so.

Don't need to reply. Not here to talk of Mace.

But that is speculation. [/B]

Sidious has been identified, by the official website and Lucas himself, as the most powerful practitioner of the Dark Side in the movies. The site, even mentions him as the most powerful 'in modern times'. So, I guess it is without argument that Sidious is undoubtably the more powerful Sith. And yet even this is not enough to quell the non-believers who assume Dooku is stronger.

Although the Databank can be incorrect or misleading at times, Sidious is the most Dark side practitioner of his time, but this will not make him more powerful than Dooku.

Because: There is a divine between the most power user of the Dark side and the most power user of the Force itself.

Sure Sidious was a Dark side master, but does this truly make him stronger in the Force than Dooku? No.

Many believe that Dooku is stronger simply because he bested Mace in times previous to The Phantom Menace, and Mace happened to defeat Sidious in Revenge of the Sith. Thusly, it is assumed, Dooku must be stronger. But is that really so ?

Many believe that Sidious is stronger simply because he beholds the rank of "Master" and Dooku holds the Rank of "Apprentice". In time we have seen that the Apprentice will sooner or later pass the Master in power or try to take over, but it was somewhat different in Sidious and Dooku's situation?

Both Dooku 'and' Mace would have had a lot of time to improve upon their skills. It isn't set in concrete that Dooku even progressed more. It is likely, considering that Dooku was already well on his way (if he had not already) mastered Makashi during this time. Now. The website isn't even specific on the terms of the defeat. As Nai or Faunus pointed out, Dooku and Windu could've sparred, and the score have been dead even, 5-5 - and the website 'still' could've worded that Dooku beat Mace, simply because he did, even in this instance. Dooku 'BEAT' Mace 5 times, and Mace beat Dooku five times as well.

Hmm... Alot of people assume that because Mace was younger and more able, he may have surpassed Dooku because apparently, he is younger and has a bigger Margin to gain Experience. HUH?

Dooku still remains to have three decades of Experience over Mace, new found darkened powers and probably a deadly new Experience with Makashi, considering he does not have to hold his emotions back with the Form any longer. Why would the Database say that Dooku won if they tied during the fight? Doesn't make clear sense at all.

Also, compare the fights. I will not argue that Mace didn't beat Sidious legitimately. But is that really how Sidious normally fights? Just with his saber ability? No. In the duel against Mace, he didn't use his Force powers until he was in a position that they could be negated by Mace's lightsaber. Would the fight have gone differently if Sidious used his Force powers (which we can assume is greater than Mace's own) ? Perhaps so.

Don't need to reply. Not here to talk of Mace.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I really dont see how people could believe Dooku is stronger, Dooku pretty much admits it himself that Sidious is stronger in the ROTS novel and in Dark Rendevous.

Novels? Disregarded. Especially the ROTS Novel.

a) Dooku NEVER disarmed Yoda, or even landed a blow on him, but Sidious did.

Dooku would wipe the floor with Kenobi. Anakin killed Dooku, yet Kenobi killed Anakin.

Different opponents fight differently with each other. Saying that just because Yoda beat Sidious and Dooku didn't means that Sidious could defeat Dooku is overboard with ridiculous favor. I disregard A.

b) Dooku FEARED Sidious and was in AWE of him. Please cite the novels of Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil (both canon).

Novels are not Canon. Either way, Sidious still feared Dooku snatching his position.

Dooku RARELY got the advantage during his saber duel with Yoda, even though Yoda had no desire to harm him; at least not on the level he did with Sidious.

No proof that Yoda didn't want Dooku dead. Yoda was grunting and try to get past Dooku's defense.

d) Dooku is NOT the more powerful Sith.

But he is the better Lightsaber duelist and possibly the better Force User.

e) Dooku tried to CONVERT Anakin to the Dark Side during the assault on Invisible Hand. Perhaps he needed Anakin to kill Sidious ?

Perhaps Sidious needed Anakin to kill Dooku because he could not do it on his own, hmm? Sidious is known to do things like that.

---

In the Force, there's nothing that indicates the Count as being superior. He's not the stronger Sith. He's done nothing that Sidious hasn't done with the Force. And as for saber skills, I could see him being his slight superior or equal. But most around here deem it otherwise.

Dooku virtually Mastered his Form of ONE VS ONE Dueling and was one of the best Lightsaber duelists around. Pretending to be a Politician didn't require Palpatine much Lightsaber practice. Sidious was damned good, but he was defeatable as we saw, and wasn't able to kill Yoda with his Lightsaber, let alone the force. Nor was he able to best Mace until Sidious' little helper came along to give Sidious the nudge he needed.

---

There are ways to defeat more powerful opponents.

Then Sidious could indeed defeat Dooku. 😛

You know, the back and forth between you two spans multiple threads. Before it becomes a Dooku bashing campaign, I suggest the two of you reconsider continuing this inane discussion. There is no conclusive answer to who is more powerful, or better, or any other subjective, unproven answer you might have.

A better question would be to say which one people prefer. At least then everyone can be right and content.

I personally think that Dooku doesn't really has to be incredibly good in the force to be good in dueling with his style. Sidious however really does.. And for what? His fighting style is only speedy and unpredictable, any good jedi with a cool head can probably overpower Sidious eventually just like what happened to Qui-Gon. It's just the speed they need to watch out for.

Which is why, Ianus, I want it to end here.

---

a) So is saying that Dooku could best Sidious.

b) Either way, Dooku still feared Sidious enough not to do it when the man was 'shackled' to a chair. Kinda odd, don't you think?

c) Oh, yes. Well, lol, if that had been the case, Yoda would've chucked the debris at Count Dooku earlier in the duel. Now, say what you will, we ALL know Yoda wanted to kill Sidious. It isn't so decided with dear Count Dooku.

d) Lmao. I just gave you proof that Sidious had more times on the offensive than Dooku did against Yoda, and whereas Count Dooku struggled to rip a generator from the ceiling, Sidious managed to rip three Senate pods at a time from the moorings and chuck them like paperwads. So, please. Give me some PROOF. Dooku'd be lucky to be considered the EQUAL of Sidious in Force powers.

e) Not really. How so? Sidious could kill Vader, we've seen that. But he'd be out an apprentice if he did; so there'd be no guartentee Luke would have joined them. No. Sidious tries to turn an apprentice because it is conveniant. We 'know' that. But we do not for Dooku.

No. Yoda is better. Yoda is the best duelist. Dooku would probably be second. Or Mace. And, like I said, Sidious kept up for Yoda, so they are all much closer than you'd think.

f) Again. Dooku is weaker than Sidious in the Force, and we know he could probably keep up for him for a while in sabers. And should the fight come down to a Force battle, I don't see your beloved Count walking away.

Conclusion: Kinda feels like I'm on a Dooku smear campaign. But this is simply to combat the immense fanboyism of several people around here, though I won't point any fingers. You can accuse me of fanboyism, but it isn't true. If you'd look around the forums, I'll gladly tell you when Sidious and Yoda both get owned, defeated, or stalemated.

But this is sad. Sidious has sunk so low that Count Dooku could beat him in sabers (believable) and in the FORCE (UN-believable). Say what you will.

Lucas and the websites say he's the more powerful Sith. And if Dooku were a superior Force user, he'd have the title, not Sidious. Just as if Dooku were the more powerful Force user than Yoda, he'd have been the better Jedi. Which he wasn't.

Dooku is a big NUMBER 2 to both Sidious and Yoda in the Sith and Jedi respective departments. It's time for you all to offer some proof, Sorgo, as to why he is the BETTER Force user when clearly he's not cited as such.

Perhaps the only reason that Sidious was cornerd by mace was because Sidious wanted Anakin to be there to Betray mace and Pledge himself to Sidious. I realy do beleive that a simple Force Push could have pushed mace back enough for Sidious to get up and i beleive he could have killed both Anakin and mace if Anakin had chosen not to come or to help mace kill him. However this is all just speculation.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I really dont see how people could believe Dooku is stronger, Dooku pretty much admits it himself that Sidious is stronger in the ROTS novel and in Dark Rendevous.

Now I still don't see why people thought Dooku was stronger then Sidious but the dark lord of the sith (Sidious) is stronger (maybe by a lot or not by much) then Dooku

I think that Sidous was the more powerful Force-user. Dooku is the better swordsman and could beat him if circumstances were right, but he's not more powerful.

Consider; Kenobi easily blocked Dooku's lighening. It took considerable effort for Mace to block Sidious's (true, it was from point-blank range).

Indeed; not to mention when Kenobi blocked it, he did so with one hand and with ease. And he and Dooku were roughly ten or so feet apart. But then you compare this to Mace, who is a supremely superior Jedi when compared to Kenobi, and who may very well be on Dooku's own level. He struggled immensely to hold the lightning at bay. Not to mention that when it finally did strike - it sent him into such spasms that he was flung out the window - and far beyond anything Dooku sent Anakin to.

No. It's a supreme stretch saying Dooku is the more powerful Force user.

Dooku

1) Tyranus possesses a more powerful and dangerous lightsaber form

Sidious

1) Why didnt Dooku overthrow him when he had the chance? Was he scared?
2) He had a genius plan to seduce young Skywalker and he tricked his apprentice to die.
3) More experience with Dark Side and more powerful Sith Lightning and other Force abilities

a) So is saying that Dooku could best Sidious.

Matter of opinion on clear perspective.

b) Either way, Dooku still feared Sidious enough not to do it when the man was 'shackled' to a chair. Kinda odd, don't you think?

I refuse to repeat myself when this has been explained to you before.

Sidious feared Dooku's intentions of killing him and taking over correct? And you said that just because Sidious fears Dooku's intention doesn't mean he fears him, correct? Well, since Sidious fears Dooku may have taken over his position and killed him, Dooku feared that if he did not please his Master, he would be killed. Dooku feared Sidious' "Intention" on killing him if he did not please him, so does this mean (According to the fact from you that if you fear an Intention, you do not fear an entity) that Dooku feared Sidious' intention and not him? Or does it go the other way around because it's in Sidious' shoes now? No, I don't think it does, does it?

c) Oh, yes. Well, lol, if that had been the case, Yoda would've chucked the debris at Count Dooku earlier in the duel. Now, say what you will, we ALL know Yoda wanted to kill Sidious. It isn't so decided with dear Count Dooku.

And Count Dooku would not have able to counter the debris and he would have died. The end.

^ I do not think so.

d) Lmao. I just gave you proof that Sidious had more times on the offensive than Dooku did against Yoda, and whereas Count Dooku struggled to rip a generator from the ceiling, Sidious managed to rip three Senate pods at a time from the moorings and chuck them like paperwads. So, please. Give me some PROOF. Dooku'd be lucky to be considered the EQUAL of Sidious in Force powers.

Give me proof the Pods weighed more than the Moorings. Or is it "Obvious"?

Stop using the f*cking Criss Cross Analogies! FOR F*CKS SAKE! Just because Sidious can defeat Yoda and Yoda can defeat Dooku does not mean Sidious could waste Dooku. Besides, Sidious didn't even win the damn fight!

e) Not really. How so? Sidious could kill Vader, we've seen that. But he'd be out an apprentice if he did; so there'd be no guartentee Luke would have joined them. No. Sidious tries to turn an apprentice because it is conveniant. We 'know' that. But we do not for Dooku.

We have also seen that Vader can kill Sidious... Because he did!

You mention how Dooku didn't kill a shackled man. How come (If Sidious is more powerful)just straight up f*cking kick the shit out of Dooku? DARK SIDE POINTS FOR ANAKIN? I don't think so! He could have used any of the 200+ Jedi around, which is what he did.

No. Yoda is better. Yoda is the best duelist. Dooku would probably be second. Or Mace. And, like I said, Sidious kept up for Yoda, so they are all much closer than you'd think.

Anakin is more powerful than Kenobi, yet Kenobi dropped his ass.

AND LIKE I SAID different opponents fight differently with each other. Stop the Criss-Cross Analogies BULLSHIT!

f) Again. Dooku is weaker than Sidious in the Force, and we know he could probably keep up for him for a while in sabers. And should the fight come down to a Force battle, I don't see your beloved Count walking away.

Why the f*ck do you speak for everyone? Not everyone thinks he is the Superior Force User, because Me and a few Others (Ianus and Nai) Have seen that Dooku may actually be stronger than Sidious in the Force.

Conclusion: Kinda feels like I'm on a Dooku smear campaign. But this is simply to combat the immense fanboyism of several people around here, though I won't point any fingers. You can accuse me of fanboyism, but it isn't true. If you'd look around the forums, I'll gladly tell you when Sidious and Yoda both get owned, defeated, or stalemated.

Ah, Escape, even Fanboys know their limit. For example, I know Yoda could probably hand Dooku's ass to him. Just because you say that Sidious can be defeat doesn't mean you're not a Fanboy. I have seen in different threads your praise and approval of Sidious and how powerful and smart he is. DO NOT deny that you are not at least 10% leaning towards a Sidious fanboyism.

But this is sad. Sidious has sunk so low that Count Dooku could beat him in sabers (believable) and in the FORCE (UN-believable). Say what you will.

Why not? Apprentices have been known to be stronger than their Masters.

Lucas and the websites say he's the more powerful Sith. And if Dooku were a superior Force user, he'd have the title, not Sidious. Just as if Dooku were the more powerful Force user than Yoda, he'd have been the better Jedi. Which he wasn't.

1. Send me a link saying he is the more powerful Sith than Dooku, please.

2. That he is the more powerful "Sith", not the more powerful Force Utilizer.

Dooku is a big NUMBER 2 to both Sidious and Yoda in the Sith and Jedi respective departments. It's time for you all to offer some proof, Sorgo, as to why he is the BETTER Force user when clearly he's not cited as such.

You have no proof that Sidious is better than Dooku.

All you have is Opinions and Hypocrisy. Why do ask proof when you provide none, Escape?

Clearly not? More than one person has seen Dooku display his Force, arguing it is more powerful than Palpatine's, and these people aren't Fanboys like me.