Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

==================================================




This thread concerns the arc titled: "Here Comes Tomorrow" 

which took place in New X-Men across four issues: #151 - 154.

The arc officially began in the last two pages of #150. (150 years in the future)



The purpose of this discussion is to finalize debates
that have literally been going on for years,
it will center around Jean Grey, 

but the arc alone forces several disputes about the events that took place withIN,

and even raises controversy concerning its very canonicity.



With MY courteous Opinion!!!


I will present all the relevant scans/info from the arc, 

plus various relevant scans/info from the preceding arc which conflicts with HCT,

in addition, 

I will also bring forth scans/info from Jean Grey's participation
in her following arc as well,
which again, conflicts with the nature of HCT.



Finally, besides On Panel evidence, 

I will also use info from official Handbooks,
and official Marvel sponsored sites,

that relate to HCT directly or in one form or another,

and I will ultimately display what unofficial sources have to say about HCT.



I want to use every source possible that has indulged in HCT,

this way we get a strict but also broad view from all corners.

(basically I don't want to leave one stone unturned)




==================================================




The three main questions that we will inquire about are:



1. Where did "Here Comes Tomorrow" take place, 

was it in 616, was it in an Alternate Future reality,
or was it an imaginary story?


2. What version of Jean Grey was involved in HCT,

was it 616 Jean Grey, 

or was it an Alternate Jean that later became the so-called "White Crown" Phoenix,

or does it even matter since it's an imaginary story?



3. Is Here Comes Tomorrow even canon, to 616, or to Alternate Realities, or at all?



==================================================





Ok, now that I got the introduction out of the way,

here's the WARNING approved by Badabing. (Moderator)



Anyone, no exception including myself, 

decides to enter this thread in order to insult anyone,
gets Reported
no questions asked, insult again,
get Reported again, 


Anyone, tries to post some sanctimonious babble
trying to demean the understanding of another poster, gets Reported

no questions asked, and so on, and so on like stated above.



Anyone, tries to fallaciously claim that I hate Phoenix, 

because I'm respectfully opening a dialogue concerning this arc,

or decides to suggest that someone else hates Phoenix 

because they agree with what they perceive to be valid/logical evidence/sense,

gets Reported
no questions asked, and so on like stated above.

Badabing has also made it official,
said reasons for Reporting will not just be overlooked,
said Posts, that force said Reports, will be DELETED.
This way,
all who are of spite mind
and wish to have their insults or what have you read,
will be sorely disappointed.



Everyone is free to participate and post their own opinions based on the evidence,

everyone is free to post their own evidence,
and formulate an opinion from there,

everyone is free to ask for more material evidence if necessary,
and if applicable,

everyone is encouraged to submit their two cents, 

but please read over the material meticulously, or present your own material, 

and give a reason (if you can) what your opinion is based on.




Those are the rules concerning warnings that pertain to this thread,

the other KMC rules, of course also apply.




==================================================




That's all ... let's get started.

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Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

===========================================


First I hope yall don't think I'm placing Phoenix below Universal status,
because I'm not.
Pheonix has always been an absolute Universal power,
this I know and agree with.

There is one fact that can't be escaped,
of all the Universal powers I have studied,
Phoenix is the one that has the most low showings,
and frankly, hardly any high showings at all,
is it because the Phoenix has many inherent weaknesses, besides its great power,
or is it because it's one of the cosmics that deals most with heroes
and thus pis must revolve around it? ... I don't know, but it's a fact nonetheless.

..................................................................................................

Now, onto the debate:

..................................................................................................


From my perspective, ( I have two of them)
based on what I read On Panel and Bios and other sources:

Reality 15104 (HCT) is a possible Future of 616. (No Future is definite in Marvel)
It was always 15104 ... and it was never 616,
just like none of the other possible 616 Futures are not either.


The low down:

Scott decides to leave the X-Men and Emma, ultimately he dies,
and "Here Comes Tomorrow" is created 150 years in the future after his decision.

Jean amputated the Future of Reality 15104
in order to disinfect said Future from Sublime,
the Future was never discarded,
we know this because Jean has it in her hands as soon as she enters the WHR.

Now this act damaged the Future she amputated,
Jean then Repaired This amputated Future withIN the WHR atomically.

Then Reality 15104 (yes, a Universe) itself manifested in her hands,
but, though it was a functioning Universe, it was wounded.

Why?

Because it's Future was still the same (without Sublime though)
that Future being the finality of "Here Comes Tomorrow"
(like Wolverine's future-self and others who died)

So, in order to "Heal" (change) the outcome of Reality 15104,
Jean (withIN the WHR) changed Scott's mind about the X-Men and Emma on 616,
thus, This possible Future (Reality 15104) is altered.

I will submit, I have no idea whether or not 15104 is still in existence,
with happy alternate X-Men running around.

Or, 15104 was completely nullified by the alteration.

There's indications that point in both directions,
but one of the Two, did occur.

This is IMO. .... based on all the facts I've complied.

..................................................................................................


My second perspective imo, gives HCT some substance and reason to have been,
because if we seriously combine Jean's timetabled history according to canon appearances,
HCT, makes no sense at all, which of course, I'll prove with reputable sources.


Everything above still applies, only the so called White Crown Phoenix from HCT,
was possibly never 616 Jean, and was perhaps indeed an alternate Jean Grey,
Reality 15104 Jean Grey to be exact.

That creates a paradox of sorts into the picture,
if it was not 616 Jean,
then why did she travel back in time into 616 before Scott made his decision,
to change his mind in order to alter Reality 15104?

It's an honest and sensible question.

But one answer would be,
this future Jean Grey's reality's (15104) existence depends on Scott's decision,
so it's logical for her to enter the point where Scott makes his decision,
in order to make the changes in Scott's mind which hence alter it's (15104) demise.

This is how many beings from the future have altered their own Alternate Realities,
by going back in time into 616, making a change,
and thus warping their own future Timelines that depend on 616.
I'll be presenting about 6 examples later on.

Another answer would be,
this is 616 Jean after all,
who existed in this alternate future Timeline for the brief period it existed,
she became the "White Crown" Phoenix, (solely withIN the HCT story)
and in order to nullify this alternate Timeline, herself and the entire event all together,
she went back into 616, changed Scott's mind,
therefore ensuring HCT would never come to pass, in any sense of the word,
therefore nullifying everything that had to do with HCT, including herself.
Because remember, if Scott doesn't make that decision,
none of this would have ever happened,
including Jean waking up in this future and having to do what she did.


===========================================



.... Now for the On Panel, official handbook supported reasons/allusions below. .....

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Location: somewhere within time & space

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

__________________

Last edited by Mr Master on Jul 28th, 2008 at 12:55 AM

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

..........................................................................................


Reality 15104 manifested in Jean's hands.

Jean has no idea what it is, or what to do with it:


(please log in to view the image)

Jean:

"Did I have to fix something that was dying? ... WHAT IS IT?"

The Force:

"A badly wounded orphan universe ... Phoenix work."


It was a broken Timeline,
because the effects of Sublime's actions had already taken place.


..................................................................................................


Ok ... so what does that mean? (Jean asks too, with Reality 15104 in her hands)

(please log in to view the image)

Jean:

"But ... but WHAT's THAT supposed to mean?"

Jean is told what that means:

Force:

"That Henry's (Beast) heart is broken ...
that Scott succumbs to loneliness and doubt"

Jean:

"Are these words FROM the FUTURE?" ....


Actually it's obviously the explanation that lead to HCT.

..................................................................................................


Henry's frustration lead to him unwittingly absorbing Sublime,

and Scott's loneliness (no Emma) and doubt (leaving the X-Men)

was what literally created "Here Comes Tomorrow"

..................................................................................................


Quentin tells Jean how to make Reality 15104 grow a new Future:

(please log in to view the image)

"to REPLACE the one you just cut away" (amputated)

..................................................................................................


Because as we Know it was Reality 15104's Future she cut away:

(please log in to view the image)

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed the Alternate Future ... OF ... Reality - 15104"




..................................................................................................

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Location: Ireland.

Moderator

__________________

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__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

..................................................................................................


Notice the official "Here Comes Tomorrow" Bio literally states ...

... IT WAS Scott's decision that Altered Reality 15104 ...

(please log in to view the image)

"Letting go of Cyclops and willing him to live ...

In the modern era of Earth-616 ...

Cyclops took up the responsibility of running the X Institute ...

unknowingly ensuring that at least One apocalyptic Future ...

would Not come to fruition" ...


.................................................................................


And cats got her manipulating the atoms of 616 ...

What?

To change Scott's mind? ... I disagree.


Grant Morrison Editor's themselves told us what happened EXACTLY!!!!

.................................................................................


Again ... According to the Editors:

(please log in to view the image)

"It was Scott's decision to walk away from Emma
that set the apocalyptic events of 'Here Comes Tomorrow' in motion
(Scott inadvertantly Created Reality 15104 withy a decision)

and Jean made sure that Future would never take place"

HOW WILL Jean Do This?

(what I've always said)

"By making him stay with Emma instead" ....


.................................................................................

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

.................................................................................


Also,
I just noticed something that continues to cement my opinion as a probable fact!

Notice this yall:

.................................................................................


We know ... Jean damaged Reality 15104's Future by amputating said Future right:

(please log in to view the image)

"In ONE Future, Phoenix severed/B] the Alternate Future ... [B]OF ... Reality - 15104"

.................................................................................


Jean did this in order to disinfect the Future of Sublime right:

[i](please log in to view the image)

"She then extracted Sublime's essence from the Beast's body,
disinfecting the entire Future Reality" (15104)

.................................................................................


As you continue to read this, we SEE the SAME Future Reality Jean disinfected,
is the SAME Future Reality she repaired atomically,
which is the Future of Reality 15104 which this Jean healed,
by going to the Past and forcing Scott to change his mind. (As I presented - above postS)


It never changes from 15104 to 616 ... that's a misinterpretation imo.

Yall CAN READ it for yourselves right there.

.................................................................................


Reality 15104's Future gets "amputated/disinfected" and "damaged"

(please log in to view the image)

.................................................................................


Reality 15104's Future gets Repaired atomically withIN the WHR (Hospital for Timelines)

(please log in to view the image)

"Hospital White Hot"


(please log in to view the image)

"Telekinetic control of all those atoms at once ian't as easy as it sounds,

not even for a White Phoenix of the Crown"

.................................................................................


Now Reality 15104 itself appears on the scene:

(and it's the SAME Reality to the very end in her hand) ... I NEVER saw a switch!!!!

(please log in to view the image)

(please log in to view the image)


The ONLY Reality that was "disinfected" ...

(by amputating it's Future)

.................................................................................


The ONLY Reality Jean heals "symbolically" (like the Official Bio states)

(by reaching into the Past and changing Scott's mind) ... like Morrison corroborates.


.................................................................................


As we can see,

Jean never discarded the Future, she only repaired it atomically,
Reality 15104 was still the same possible "horrific Future" even after it's Future "Repair"
but by Scott changing his mind,
Reality 15104 either continues a separate existence from the one stained with Sublime,
or simply ceases to exist,
since it was Scott's decision in the first place that literally Created it.

.................................................................................


Imagine the Prime Reality, foundation of the Omniverse, core of the Multiverse,
as some cheesy "orphan universe" stranded from the Multiverse.
That's crazy yall, and basically impossible.

Or better yet,
imagine the Prime Reality just being left to DIE, like Quentin suggested doing.

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

.............................................................................


This is what Morrison thought of that Reality, through the eyes of Quintin:

(please log in to view the image)

"If it was me, I'd just let it die"

.............................................................................


If that was 616,
what Quintin is daring to state is:

"if it was me, I'd just let ALL of Marvel die" ...

.............................................................................

WHY?

.............................................................................


616 dies, everything dies:


.....................................................................................................


Uatu and the Watcher realized
that nanoseconds after the 616 Reality dies,
the Omniverse will die:

(please log in to view the image)

"After my last report however, we were forced to reinspect our fundamental principles.

We concluded that the destruction of This Universe,
while still bounded by the speed of light,
would occur within an expanding simultaneity, which would,
paratemporally, have begun immediately following the initial
nanoseconds of This Universe.

And then it would Expand outward from This Universe ...
we call it 616 ... to engulf All Others ... "


..................................................................................


Dr Stange is confused with the Uatu's explanation,
so Uatu tells him in plain engilsh the fact concerning the significance
of the 616 Reality:

(please log in to view the image)

Dr Strange says,

"I do not understand ... please explain more simply"


Uatu explains more simply,

"If your World Dies now, Stephen, it will take Everything with it.

Not only This Universe (616) but All the Other UniverseS as well.

Everything there is, will End.

Or rather put it even more simply, Everything will never have been"

..................................................................................

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

__________________

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

........................................................................................


Let's entertain the thought that 616 Jean/Phoenix was canon to HCT.

By entertaining the thought that Jean/Phoenix became this "White Crown" person.

What was 616 Jean doing in a "Phoenix Egg" on the Moon 150 years in the Future,
when prior to that,
she had MERGED with the PF,
and was supposed to be in the White Hot Room finding her pieces?

........................................................................................


(Phoenix Force bio - official Marvel Handbook - X-Men - 2005 excerpt)

(please log in to view the image)

"The Force ... Jean ... merged fully,
returning to the WHR, the Force set out to find its other pieces"


........................................................................................


(Jean Grey bio - official Marvel Handbook - Mutant X Files - 2008)


(please log in to view the image)

"The Force it's prime host ... merged fully with Jean,
Jean & the Force returned to the WHR"


........................................................................................


On Panel verification:


(please log in to view the image)

"Afterwards, in the White Hot Room ... when all our pieces are back together"


........................................................................................


Indeed, ultimately in Endsong,
Jean merged with the Force returns to the WHR to find their pieces:


(please log in to view the image)

........................................................................................


Next time we see Jean On Panel is during,
"What If - X-Men - Rise and Fall of the Shi'Ar Empire."

Guess what,
Jean is the embodiment of the Phoenix Force,
just like the story ended in Endsong:

(please log in to view the image)


........................................................................................


So .. with that PROVEN!!!!!


What is Jean Grey,
NOT merged with the PF,
doing in an Egg, 150 years in the Future?

(please log in to view the image)



........................................................................................


Logical explanation?


No mention of any White Crown Phoenix in ANY of Phoenix's bios,
no mention of Here Comes Tomorrow EVER taking place in 616 Jean's history,
and on panel the contradictions are overwhelming if it had been 616 Jean.

So, like Here Comes Tomorrow's Jean's bio states,
that Jean Grey was Reality 115104 Phoenix.


........................................................................................


Here Comes Tomorrow?

... HCT has nothing do to with 616 Jean,
616 Jean was in a grave, DEAD!
HCT has nothing to do with the Phoenix Force of the 616 Universe,
the 616 Phoenix Force was still healing (incubating in fact) in the WHR,
which means it was completely in-affective.


........................................................................................

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Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

........................................................................................


One more thing, cause I wanna cover all corners and possibilities,
and show that the above contradictions are the tip of the iceberg.

........................................................................................


Endsong is the following arc,
for 616 Jean Grey's continuity proceeding the "Planet X" arc,
where she was killed by Xorn.

At the end of Endsong, after Jean merges with the Phoenix Force,
Jean appears in her White suit:

(150 Years prior to HCT)

(please log in to view the image)

........................................................................................


How then again, after Jean appears 150 years supposedly AFTER this merger,
does Phoenix appear in another suit in HCT?



Here it is on fire in HCT:

(please log in to view the image)




Here it is without the flames in HCT:

(please log in to view the image)




Yet strangely enough,
later on in the HCT arc, when this Jean becomes the White Crown
Jean appears with the same White suit:

(please log in to view the image)

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........................................................................................


One final void to approach.

........................................................................................


In some thread, this scan was used to canonize HCT by connecting it to Endsong:


(this is from HCT)

(please log in to view the image)

"The Termid species had an inbuilt genetic obsolescence"

........................................................................................


(this is from Endsong)

(please log in to view the image)

"Litttle bug people ... a built-in obsolescence"

Hmm ... Seems right, but the poster forgot something,
that Jean clearly points out the number of genetic obsolescences"
she killed,
namely,
"Billions and Billions"

........................................................................................


(this is from the SAME arc: Endsong)


A Shiar Commander says:

(please log in to view the image)

"Phoenix ... comes to purify the Universe ....burning away what doesn't work,
My (family) died with FIVE BILLION others when Phoenix ate D'Bary's Star,
if you want to tell me They were a Genetic Obsolescence ...
that Phoenix was designed to correct? ...

........................................................................................


... No comment, yall decide.

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Last edited by Mr Master on Jul 28th, 2008 at 01:07 AM

Gender: Male
Location: somewhere within time & space

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