Hulk is written as a serious character that is like a ticking time bomb. His very existence is tumultuous on Earth. Cain is written as a bit of a buffoon. Like a few ticks up from say, rhino in terms of how he's portrayed. I wouldn't have written him that way because I think there's a lot to work with there. But c'est la vie 🤷
Re: Why is Hulk more of a threat than Juggernaut?
Originally posted by TethAdamTheRock
Hulk destroys things but Juggernaut is evil and his job is to destroy
Juggernaut's focus is extremely localized and limited.
In early years, arguably at the zenith of his power, he wanted little more than revenge against his brother, Professor X, Charles Xavier.
Nothing less, perhaps, but scarcely, if any, more.
"Get Charles."
That was the goal, that was it.
Later he might entertain the idea of a private kingdom, or helping Black Tom Cassidy achieve his ends. No matter. Before he could achieve that, he had to get Charles, the X-Men, and/or some hero or heroes and the X-Men, out the way first. So again we have "Get Charles", or, if you prefer "Get Charles and company". Still local focus. Where he IS interested in anything, it is ownership or control. Not destroying what he values. And he tends not to want much, because his own power satisfies much of his needs, and Black Tom generally sees to the rest of his well-being. Juggernaut is only dangerous in limited circumstances. VERY limited circumstances.
Originally posted by dmills
Hulk is written as a serious character that is like a ticking time bomb. His very existence is tumultuous on Earth. Cain is written as a bit of a buffoon. Like a few ticks up from say, rhino in terms of how he's portrayed. I wouldn't have written him that way because I think there's a lot to work with there. But c'est la vie 🤷
That and Juggy is a One Note/Joke Character.
He wasn't for a long time. Juggernaut v. Hulk was a recurring "What If" in comics. Until the early 2000s, suggesting Hulk was definitively above him - let alone others like Thor that he's since matched and/or surpassed - would have been laughable. Even the earliest tiers thread here on KMC (~2005) had Hulk at low herald, and even the Hulk fans were like "yeah, pretty much." I remember a 90s interview with Stan Lee where they asked him about Hulk v. Thor, and while he has to give a somewhat PC answer, he laughed, then his response was basically "I don't know what they're doing with the character now, but when I wrote them, Thor was always the top dog."
But then teenage mentality, WWE-watching, vs. forum reading, Twitter-fight having writers took over the big companies, and Hulk became The People's Champion, through which "smashing" becomes a metaphysical, logic-busting power that trumps any versatility Hulk lacks.
/srug
As was demonstrated during the WWH arc, (full power) Juggernaut can match the strength of a raging Hulk just fine. Therefore, Cain *could* be just as big a threat as Hulk if not bigger.
The difference is that Hulk has control issues whereas Cain does not. Hulk might go "ME SMASH THIS CITY NAO" at a moment's notice if something pisses him off. Cain won't.
Originally posted by Digi
He wasn't for a long time. Juggernaut v. Hulk was a recurring "What If" in comics. Until the early 2000s, suggesting Hulk was definitively above him - let alone others like Thor that he's since matched and/or surpassed - would have been laughable. Even the earliest tiers thread here on KMC (~2005) had Hulk at low herald, and even the Hulk fans were like "yeah, pretty much." I remember a 90s interview with Stan Lee where they asked him about Hulk v. Thor, and while he has to give a somewhat PC answer, he laughed, then his response was basically "I don't know what they're doing with the character now, but when I wrote them, Thor was always the top dog."But then teenage mentality, WWE-watching, vs. forum reading, Twitter-fight having writers took over the big companies, and Hulk became The People's Champion, through which "smashing" becomes a metaphysical, logic-busting power that trumps any versatility Hulk lacks.
/srug
👆
Digi on point.
Originally posted by Digi
He wasn't for a long time. Juggernaut v. Hulk was a recurring "What If" in comics. Until the early 2000s, suggesting Hulk was definitively above him - let alone others like Thor that he's since matched and/or surpassed - would have been laughable. Even the earliest tiers thread here on KMC (~2005) had Hulk at low herald, and even the Hulk fans were like "yeah, pretty much." I remember a 90s interview with Stan Lee where they asked him about Hulk v. Thor, and while he has to give a somewhat PC answer, he laughed, then his response was basically "I don't know what they're doing with the character now, but when I wrote them, Thor was always the top dog."But then teenage mentality, WWE-watching, vs. forum reading, Twitter-fight having writers took over the big companies, and Hulk became The People's Champion, through which "smashing" becomes a metaphysical, logic-busting power that trumps any versatility Hulk lacks.
/srug
Basically the generation of writers that play to Carvers mentality came into power and comics lost most subtlety and depth. Media in general.
Originally posted by Digi
He wasn't for a long time. Juggernaut v. Hulk was a recurring "What If" in comics. Until the early 2000s, suggesting Hulk was definitively above him - let alone others like Thor that he's since matched and/or surpassed - would have been laughable. Even the earliest tiers thread here on KMC (~2005) had Hulk at low herald, and even the Hulk fans were like "yeah, pretty much." I remember a 90s interview with Stan Lee where they asked him about Hulk v. Thor, and while he has to give a somewhat PC answer, he laughed, then his response was basically "I don't know what they're doing with the character now, but when I wrote them, Thor was always the top dog."But then teenage mentality, WWE-watching, vs. forum reading, Twitter-fight having writers took over the big companies, and Hulk became The People's Champion, through which "smashing" becomes a metaphysical, logic-busting power that trumps any versatility Hulk lacks.
/srug
Even in 90s Hulk beat the shit out of Thor in Heroes Reborn. It was retconned by Walt Simonson but still it showed Thor wasn't top dog anymore.
It was also the time where when push come to shove, Hulk broke Onslaught's armor after matching him while Thor was a spectator.
The early forums were heavily biased towards versatility and some still are. It heavily reeks of "author hate" TBH. Comics have always put strength over versatility barring a few exceptions.
Originally posted by krisblaze
Stan said that he always thought Thor was invulnerable and above Hulk tho, and this was from back in the 90s.
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronocomic/entries/scans12/A51_OtherAvengers.jpg
This is from Avengers 51.
What he says and what actually sees print are two different things. And Thor fans have rose colored glasses to what happened in silver age.
Calls of forum bias are a bit unwarranted, because you're referring to hundreds of people from years ago, whose motivations and opinions differed wildly from our own. My only point in mentioning forum opinion was to show that even if you took the upper ranges of the spectrum on Hulk, it was an order of magnitude lower than it is today. I don't care about characters receiving a power-up, but it's somewhat undeniable that a sizable one happened for Hulk.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Uh no? Stan himself didn't write Thor beating Hulk when they fought. It was Jim Shooter who declared Thor as "Marvel's Superman" and thus protected as well. As soon as Shooter left, Thor started declining.Even in 90s Hulk beat the shit out of Thor in Heroes Reborn. It was retconned by Walt Simonson but still it showed Thor wasn't top dog anymore.
It was also the time where when push come to shove, Hulk broke Onslaught's armor after matching him while Thor was a spectator.The early forums were heavily biased towards versatility and some still are. It heavily reeks of "author hate" TBH. Comics have always put strength over versatility barring a few exceptions.
Sure. There aren't exact moments where we can point to as turning points, and Thor's heyday - especially relative to Hulk - was in the 70s and 80s. Stan's words were equivocating somewhat: he's not going to embarrass one of his bigger characters in a head-to-head battle (he knows his audience, and every era had a bit of "vs. forum mentality" in it), but the respect with which Thor was consistently treated placed him firmly higher during Stan's era. The main thrust of my point is that it's been an exceedingly good 10-12 years for Hulk. It's not that he lacked good showings relative to his peers, but they weren't quite as over-the-top and the consistency wasn't there. I mean, we're talking about Juggernaut in this thread, but I can recall a 90s Hulk where Hulk v. Thing would have been a legitimate discussion. But especially the mid to late 90s - with its roided out machismo - was a good tonal fit for the Hulk's persona, so he undoubtedly benefited from it. I think the fact that your primary example was retconned is a good way to show both sides: Hulk wasn't yet where he would be, but that transition (for Thor as well) was starting to take effect.
Taken in context with the OP's question, though, I think my point holds up quite well.
