Wrong again. In the Cosmos in Collision arc, it's Kronos that first introduces us to Infinity. He tells Maelstrom that he's expanding into her (ie he's expanding into infinite space). He doesn't say he's expanding into Eternity. You can look it up yourself.
She's the prime space being, he's the prime time being. She's so closely tied to him because space cannot exist without time.
He couldn't kill Galactus? What issue were you reading. He couldn't summon Galactus' opposite to kill him because the In-betweener himself was the opposite. Galactus was losing the fight, the In-betweener even mentions the fact that Galactus' is weakening and they haven't even reached the place where the In-betweener is strongest (the black hole).
The In-betweener ordering Death around is an awesome feat because supposedly she's greater than his creators! He has a totally unique nature and powerset that weren't duplicated by any of the abstracts there. In fact he was MORE powerful than many of the assembled crew.
PS Where was Anomaly? With his power Maelstrom laughed in the face of Thanos with the IG. Yet he was a no show during this event. So add ANOTHER powerful abstraction to our ever growing list of no shows.
Agamotto isn't a demon like Mephisto or Dormammu. He's not bound to his realm and is free to move between planes of existence at will. He was the Sorcerer Supreme of the Earth dimension for MILLIONS of years. Prove to me he behaves like Mephisto and other demon lords and that he's more powerful in his realm then he is on other planes of existence.
Plus I said VISHANTI not Agamotto by himself. Agamotto solo, stalemated Galactus, imagine if Oshtur and Hoggoth joined him in the battle? They'd be cleaning pieces of Galactus from every nook and cranny in Agamotto's realm.
Not a few days (weeks?) earlier Oblivion was trying to use his lackey, Maelstrom, to one up Infinity and crew. Now he doesn't care that Thanos is about to become the big dog of 616? I call BS.
Yes the IG (Infinity Gauntlet) saga. Not IW (Infinity War) or IC (Infinity Crusade).
What feats does Infinity and Eternity have, in this or any other universe? That's right NOTHING! Or you would have produced universal level destruction feats by them. On panel all we have from Eternity is planetary level destruction. The PF hosts have better showings than that.
"Merely"? Eternity was about to bite it. Read the issue. Phoenix did something Eternity COULD NOT DO, heal himself. Galactus didn't permanently free Eternity from his coma, Phoenix PERMANENTLY cured Eternity. If you don't see the difference I don't know how else to explain it to you.
It got blasted back by "dual Dormammu". The Dormammu from our universe merged with the Dormammu of the GotG universe and became some super being. Being blasted back by that isn't exactly the lowest showing by a cosmic. Unlike Nightmare's pwning of Eternity.
Uhm Thanos had the gauntlet swiped from his body when he took Eternity's place. So it's not like it hasn't happened before. Look at the pic, Magus is stunned and while distracted, Warlock is lunging toward the Gauntlet.
DUDE READ THE ISSUE. Galactus didn't want to kill anyone. He only wanted to separate the PF from it's host and return it to the cosmos. GS provided the issue. When it looked like Rachel might die as a result he didn't care until the stars started to wink out.
He was forced to released her because even as a mere host, she had her role to play in the universe. It's in the very scan YOU posted.
Kubik kept telling him he wasn't who he thought he was (ie an omnipotent being) but merely half a cosmic cube, Beyonder was delusional . The fact that the only beings pictures in his "universe" were earth bound was a clear clue. Thor in the Atlantis Attacks Annual stated that the Beyonder's destruction of a galaxy was a mere illusion and that COMPLETE Cube beings have planetary level reality warping power at best.
Nothing about the Beyonder was as it appeared to be. He thought he destroyed a galaxy to start the "Secret War" but it turned out to be an illusion (see the Thor annual).
He thought he was an omnipotent, but it was an illusion, he was merely half a cosmic cube.
No, read it more closely. "The first, and in many ways, the greatest of the principalities", do you know what that means? This is the "bottom" layer that the Dark Phoenix was placed in.
No an aspect of one being. Dark Phoenix, White Crown Phoenix, etc...
Preying on stars isn't one of the jobs of the PF.
Keep telling yourself that, while GS provided the latest scans showing that PF = Big Bang.
First the argument for infinity... Which you can as easily assume means the entity or the abstract concept of time... Seeing as that is a portion of kronos sphere of influence.. It is a common noun... And the comic
Doesn't say specifically it is the entity..
. I find it extremely interesting that you can dismiss arguments like feats of beyonder due to later retcons.. But in consideration for Phoenix choose to completely ignore twenty years of back and forth revisions to Jean Grey... And the PF.
And again more utter nonsense about what ifs... Seriously....
And when it suits you you call bs (pis) but when it doesn't suit your argument you start deriding other posters?
__________________ Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."
Before attacking me why don't you get your facts straight? Infinity has NEVER been referred to as the abstract concept of time. EVER. That's Eternity, she has been referred to as the abstract concept of SPACE.
Read the Quasar issue yourself. She's NEVER referred to as an abstraction of TIME. Kronos says he's expanding into her (ie infinite space).
The difference is that the Beyonder has been OFFICIALLY retconned. He went from something comparable to TOAA to merely half a cosmic cube.
The fact that Kubik kept TELLING him in the issue that he was mistaken about pretty much everything clues you in.
The fact that Thor in the Atlantis Attacks Annual said that Beyonder's destruction of a galaxy was a mere illusion and that even COMPLETE Cube Beings only have planetary level reality manipulation.
The fact that when Kosmos (ie the complete Beyonder) said she fought the Celestials before, Kubik said no it was an illusion or something to that effect.
The fact that all the worshipers in his "universe" were earth bound.
The fact that Kubik himself has never been shown manipulating anything near universal level of power before or after.
Second, none of the PF's feats have been retconned. If anything they keep making it MORE powerful. GS's latest scans are amazing.
The IGs get their power form the Big Bang. The PF IS THE BIG BANG. Discussion is pretty much over, unless you can produce scans that retconn this info.
First. Only idiots use caps to "yell" a point across.
Actually my facts are straight. I reference Infinity as the name of the entity but also for the fact that some people use the noun as a reference for time.
And the feats were retconned...
And jeans standing to the Phoenix force has been change back and forth over time... If you don't read xmen admit it...
You've provided scans of what to prove your point exactly? Oh wait none. Piggybacking off gs is not a great argument.
And I hadn't started really attacking you personally yet. If I did I would do something stupid like defy forum rules or attack peoples points without evidence... Or completely misread poster comments and interpret whatever the heck I want from the forums... Or he'll even from scans I've never seen...
Oh wait that's you.
__________________ Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."
A) Nice job making it personal, I should report you but what's the point? It's a comics forum. And no you are dead wrong about your "Facts" so far.
B) Which of Jean's feats have been retconned? Her universe destruction feats (at least one of them) was confirmed in a Quasar story arc "Wandering the World's of the What If". I don't care about her standing with the PF, only the universal destruction feats. Those haven't been retconned and one has even been confirmed.
C) Forum rules don't trump actual Marvel info. According to Forum rules What If's don't count. But Marvel itself makes it clear they do. During Eon's funeral, the Time Keepers were there. Their only appearance previous to this was in the What If story arc "Time Quake". The Starbrand made it into our universe when Quasar was chasing the Living Lasrer throughout the What If universes he found himself in.
There's probably more instances but I'm not in the mood to list them.
D) I don't have the issues GS posted scans from. I didn't even know they existed until he posted them. If you or WWK or anyone else has proof disputing them post it.
I don't need scans because anyone with access to the issues I've mentioned can see for themselves that I'm not lying or making it up.
1. I just wanted you to stop your "caps war"
2. Jeans reference to how closely tied she was to the Phoenix force has changed over time.
3. You are on this forum... If you don't like the rules here... Don't post?
4. Quasar went through other universes in his own issues... The reference to what is accomplished by say.. Quasar 616 may not be the same as say quasar 2739 (random number picked) for example in one alternate universe maelstrom had risen to challenge a godlikethanos... Yet in 616 he was defeated by quasar...
The starbrand as referencd in 616 issues is cannon... Trying to say that the quasar or hulk or whatever from the universe the starbrand came from would be the exact same as 616 is not a good argument...
There are what ifs where wolverines hands are cut off (age of apocalypse) and other timelines where massive blood loss can kill wolverine... Yet 616 cannon can show us those examples and wolverine surviving... Don't lend credence to other universes an call them the same feat for the 616 counterpart... It ruins your arguments...
And if I'm wrong I challenge you o post the scan from kronos then since you are the one making the claim about it.
__________________ Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."
1) Ok?
2) No one is discussing how closely she is or isn't related to the PF. This Vs' war was over power. The PF has been shown destroying universes repeatedly in alternate realities (and this destruction has been confirmed by 616 figures : Watcher, Quasar)
3) The rules contradict Official Marvel info, Official Marvel info trumps them
4) He was not defeated by Quasar straight up, he was distracted long enough to allow the Quantum Bands he was wearing to consume him. Even in 616 he withstood Thanos IG blast and laughed in his face after. Thanos had problems "seeing" him in the aftermath, it's as if Maelstrom was beyond his "omniscience". Maelstrom's own bio states he had amassed more power than Thanos with the IG.
The fact that Infinity or Eternity hasn't been shown destroying anything worth while with a display of power is lost on most. I asked him to show me (he didn't have to literally post the scans, he could just have mentioned the issue it occurred in) universal level destruction by anyone not using a plot device (HotI or the UN) and he just kept beating aruond the bush. I gave him examples of the PF destroying universes, twice, using nothing but it's own power.
In 616, the best we've seen from Eternity is planetary level destruction. Jean and Rachel/Necrom have done more.
Thank u for thus most recent post as it appears a lot more diplomatic comparatively. :-)
Off hand the best feat I can think of for eternity or infinity is when magus? with five gems merges two universes but is bested by the entity
Oh my. Haha considering how much of a quasar fan I did forget that maelstrom met with Kronos and had a discussuion with him.
The only problem with abstract feats is thy the more powerful they are the more you have to humble them to make the heroes look better... Just as an example stranger is supposed to be the fourth face of the living tribunal but is bested by several men who's ranks included iceman?...
And I think Jamie Braddock has a similar feat to messing with the universe as Jean does with the timelines although his has to do with reality and not time... And Franklin Richards messed with one in the palms of his hands...
Ok then as a series of semantics you are right that Kronos was most definitely talking about his expanding size and that he would never approach the size of infinity...
__________________ Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."
What issues was the Jamie Braddock and Franklin feats? I know the Celestials have compared Franklin Richards to them in power or something. Which, while impressive, isn't exactly universe shaking.
And if you notice about the Eternity/Infinity "feat" of overtaking the Magus, he was missing the Reality Gem and it threw him. The look of surprise on his face as he realized he'd been had. In that moment of confusion you see Adam Warlock jump at the IG and apparently wrest it from him.
We've seen that merely removing the Gauntlet from the user is enough to depower them from Godhood, like when Nebula snatched it from Thanos hands when he had left his body.
It's not really much of a feat, unless I'm totally misremembering the event but I think I'm not.
Jamie I can't remember entirelyboffhand
Franklin was after his future self
Came back and gave him back his powers... And u say him laying under his sheets playing with a universe
The feat of the ig itself taking eternities mantle is pretty large... Course defeating all the other abstracts at will isn't a bad showing for the ig... It's just that a five gem ig was still very powerful
I don't think it was the removal of the gauntlet but nebula reversing the events of te ascension of thanks that stripped him of his power... Also later it is reeled that thanks gave up the power possibly due a subconscious desire of not feeling worthy of it...
The eternity infinity feat is simply the most powerful one I can think of... It isn't meant to meant they are all powerful just that a short time before they defeat magus he effortlessly mergedntwo universes together... Something the cosmic egg needed hours ondo... A
__________________ Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."
Wait I think I know the Jamie event you are referring too. I think it happened during Excalibur's Cross Time Caper story arc. Ugh now I need to find that issue too But I seem to remember it was only city wide. In fact someone posted scans of that and debated it on this very forum. Now do find that too
Do you have the Franklin incident issue? I know for sure I don't have it but I can google info on it and see if Marvel Digital has the issue. My friend has a sub and I'll ask him if I can log on and check it out.
But the IG failed completely against Maelstrom/Anomaly. Is Anomaly even a major abstraction?
No, I'm almost 100% positive that simply removing it depowers you. Remember Adam's first plan was having the Surfer swipe the Gauntlet from Thanos' hands.
When Nebula removed the Gauntlet from Thanos' body, the look of fear on his face (in his abstract form) was very real. Unless I'm mistaken as soon as she swiped it and put it on, Thanos was forcibly returned to his body.
Yes but even in alternate universes they haven't been shown doing much of anything. The planet busting incident I'm referring to happened during the Marvel : The End arc. They were literally going to remake the universe anyway so why not have Eternity's blast do more than planetary level damage?
I have the infinity gauntlet stuff somewhere as well as the fantastic four issue I believe. I'm not so much into posting as I like reading here nowadays but i remember the context was that franklins future self came intorhe past and then left... As for the actual thanos event and thanos losing his abstract nature that I'd have to find. Hrmm... Do i really want to pull my hard drie out of storage
__________________ Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."
The seventh gem just appeared out of nowhere for that Ultraforce crossover and since that awful story it has been ignored. However the 616 gem was destroyed and the essence split amongst the others.
As for alternate reality IG's who's to say there ever was an Ego gem. They are after all alternate realities.
To be honest none of this has any real relevance to the debate at hand
Where was LT when the M'kraan crystal destroyed the previous multiverse that Galactus came from as shown and referred to in X-men Adventures?
Where was LT and the others when the M'kraan crystal again threatened the current multiverse? It was only Phoenix that stopped this multiversal threat.
It goes both ways, you know this we've discussed this many a time before, its a redundant point, stop bringing it up with different posters.
The Phoenix Force cant be killed. Distracted hosts have been, its firebird avatar has been shattered but thats all, doesnt take away from the full Phoenix Force
Many times in this thread now i have referred to how Jean Grey destroyed a timeline. Not a mere universe which is a reality in a specific point in time, but a timeline. All on panel and all referred to in the handbooks. This point is dead, do not bring it up again.
It was a crappy, desperate point to begin with given that Jean manipulated the atoms of the entire universe in her palm. How ridiculous to doubt that if she could do that and exercise so much control over a universes matter that she couldnt simply blow one apart which would require significantly less power and skill.
Unless a universe shares the same characteristics as the main ones(i.e has abstracts and is derived from the Big Bang) then it is deemed a pocket universe by Marvel as it is formed from already existing matter and energy borrowed from the multiverse and is generally smaller in scale.
Post retcon Beyonder is classed as a minor omnipotent so it stands to reason that any reality he could create would be smaller in scale than one derived from the Big Bang. All i saw in that issue was a planet
Oh please. He started with the power source of the universe, the stars which he called the "greatest of principalities". Your biased perspective no doubt caused you to overlook that. It makes sense to start from the source and go on to all that follows.
With regards to the I Being it has been retconned as ive shown in this thread, so your reference is irrelevant.
With regards to Sisneg he merely absorbed and expelled energies that were already there, he never created anything new, that doesnt place him on a greater footing than the Phoenix or make him a universal creator.
The Alien Entity went back in time and triggered the Big Bang as stated. He never created it.
Genis blew up the universe triggering a Big Bang, he never created anything new, it was triggered with matter and energies that were already there, matter and energies greater than him
No ones arguing that Phoenix is the creator, thats what you cant seem to grasp. We're just saying that while Phoenix itself may have been created by TOAA. It is the very energies of creation that the universe derives from, that the abstracts derive from. As the Big Bang it brought into being the concepts that give the abstracts meaning and allows them to existence.
The Phoenix Force isnt a concept. Learn about the characters you are debating. It is life force. The abstracts are concepts who tap into universal energies, they are NOT the energies themselves.
Jeans relationship with the Force has been changed back and forth over time, but the Phoenixes feats and its very nature within existence has been quite consistent throughout just about the entirety of its existence.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 30th, 2010 04:05 AM
But I seem to remember it was only city wide. In fact someone posted scans of that and debated it on this very forum. Now do find that too 
