My point is that the grounds on which Cyttorak is given the win is rather farfetched because Cyttorak has done nothing of importance.
Did this comparison happen on panel?
I assume your talking about Tom Brevoort, with the scan Colossus have presented on your mind. Let me just ask randomly into the internet, Who on earth would believe the guy if he said Terrax was above the Silver Surfer?
Secondly on what grounds are he actually giving the statement, is he familiar with the characters that are being discussed?
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Last edited by Utrigita on Mar 26th, 2011 at 06:05 PM
From what I understood, the Gaea thing wasn't an upgrade in the power sense but more of Hercules being "enlightened". At least, that's my interpretation of it.
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from mythology.
when marvel first began skyfathers WERE the true cosmics and odin was considered a peer of galactus. according to myth, it was skyfathers and their fathers who created the universe. doesn't get more 'cosmic'. marvel later f'd things up by continually adding to its list of ludicrous cosmics and downgrading skyfathers without any actual logical reasoning. one time odin is peer to galactus, next moment everyone is supposed to assume galactus and his ilk>>>>>>>>>>>>all skyfathers. now THAT is crap.
uh, yeah?
your point is..... ridiculous, to be kind. gaea IS the mother, but again, what proof that she is more powerful than odin? the title 'elder god' is simply that--status. again, it may well be true that she is more powerful, but we tend to use feats here, as opposed to simple hearsay. and i've yet to see scans that would support the idea that JUST because someone is an 'elder god' that they are NECESSARILY more powerful than someone like odin. i'm more than willing to say they are--but not based on the weak forum-speak reasoning i continually see dished out around here.
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yeah, i was just going to look. i didn't recall gaea actually GRANTING power. i'm not exactly sure WHERE the power came from tbh. anyone else have thoughts or proof to help answer the question?
i dont think anyone here is saying the title elder god makes you more powerful than odin or zeus
(although legion had to reset to universe to kill a few of the much weaker ones)
just the most powerful of them. i have pointed out the feats
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If i remember correctily Jugs was given Cyttorak hell in his own realm and this is the only combat showing we have on Cyttorak. So Zeus should be able to give Cyttorak hell
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that's what i thought too then someone said that was just a human form and he's really formless or something. something else i'd like to see proof of.
for someone so uber, i've seen juggs battle him physically, the hammer cancel his spell and namor break the bands..... but we are to just ASSUME he's so far above someone like odin or zeus?
i'll happily concede the point. all i ask for is some PROOF. not writer-speak or regurgitated forum-speak. on-panel proof. anyone?
If you want to get rid of One Above All, Living Tribunal all the cosmics and have Zeus as the creator of the entire universe then ok.
But Zeus is only a God as seen by humans, he is based around Earth.
Earth is not centre of the universe.
Mythology began when people had no idea of the size of universe. So they assumed that creator of the planet also created the entire universe which to them would only be the sun, planets they can see and distant visible stars.
In marvel Olympians are an Earth pantheon, ONE planet.
In the universe their are billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars and planets.
Marvel royally fxxked up with the whole "Skyfather" wanking. You are now stuck with competing creation stories each of them has to be reconciled with the others or it doesn't make any sense.
Odin claims to have created the Earth and the physical universe from Ymir's corpse. Big problem, Ymir's alive and the universe is older than either of them. Plus you got competing Skyfathers making the same claim!
Whoopsie!
Marvel almost saved itself with the whole Serpent Crown saga. The Demiurge creation story involving the Elder Gods (Set, Oshtur, Gaea, Chthon, etc) and then later the Primordial Gods (Crom, Bor, Ymir, Mitra, etc) and finally the "New" Gods (Odin, Zeus, Vishnu, etc...) actually sort of made some sense and put to rest the competing creation/origin stories.
But Marvel, being Marvel, fugged that up and now here we are.
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..even the outer hells are indifferent matters for they bow only to potent and archaic Nodens.
It's only farfetched if you know nothing about Cyttorak. Or Juggernaut--since with him being a subsidiary all of his feats are creditable to Cyttorak as well. And are using the conventions of battleboards to somehow bias the rest of your perception. There is more to things than feats. Portrayals are important as well.
Question; how will Zeus even hurt Cytorrak when being sent to Oblivion couldn't even kill Juggernaut?
Vishanti are scared of him. Classic Strange, far more powerful than Zeus, was completely powerless against him.
Juggernaut with some time spent in the Crimson Cosmos, was able to fight Nightmare. Who Classic Strange could not defeat and who trapped Eternity. Zom himself invoked Cyttorak's name.
It was a question that I asked Brevoort myself out of curiosity to see Cyttorak's *actual* placement and how it jibed with fan inferred tiers.
And lo and behold, Cyttorak is far more powerful than the conventions of battle boards can allow one to place him.
Your comparison with the hypothetical Surfer/Terrax answer is a faulty/idiotic one. Borderline strawman too. They have actual history together to draw from.
Cyttorak on the other hand has been in like...a dozen comics altogether. That means one cannot simply try to contradict his editorial placement with showings because there is no means to do that. It stands firm until subsequent showings prove it wrong.
With your logic, you could contend that the LT is more powerful than TOAA, as really, what has TOAA ever done? He hardly even has a proper appearance even. We can't even be sure he exists.
Oh. That's easy.
Are you somehow unfamiliar with the fact that he is the Executive Editor of Marvel? And has been working there for decades? And has been reading comics for even longer than that?
Once more; Word of (a) God. That's what Brevoort supplies here. Are you familiar with the phrase? And in the case of Cyttorak and other obscure characters, you cannot contradict editorial placements just by saying 'but they haven't done anything to be put there!' Shut up, don't be pretentious enough to believe your interpretation has more authority than actual authorities.
The proper way to deal with such a situation, is to not even make threads with obscure characters in the first place.
Tom makes excuses for everything and he used to be the editor on Bendis' Avengers run which should tell you he doesn't care about continuity that much. So I wouldn't hold his word to such a high standard even though he is right in this case.
Nightmare would get one shotted by classic Strange and hes never ever beaten Eternity on panel. Hes either trapped him while he was KOed after fighting Dormammu or Eternity has outright stated he let himself get trapped because someone like Nightmare is nothing to him.
How about the fact that Cyttorak has said EXACTLY that while talking to Strange whilst he had Juggernaut bound up and helpless?
Cyttorak has had at least three different appearances that I've seen thus far. And he manifests differently to different people--said on panel. Juggernaut has seen him looking like a demonic version of himself, the depiction used in the OP. And more recently, Juggernaut while hallucinating sees Cyttorak again but this time he looked like a more evil version of Dormammu.
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he said it? i don't recall that. guess i could check myself. your nightmare argument re:juggs is not very strong though. nightmare has been notoriously inconsistent. nightmare had to banish hulk from is realm iirc.
and classic strange is most certainly not more powerful than zeus. with prep and loads of his artifacts he might be able to compete. but straight up? not even close. classic strange wasn't even as powerful as loki, let alone a skyfather.
Classic Strange surprised the LT thats not really a feat but considering in the same storyline the LT tried to kill Strange again and failed its more in line with him consistently defying him.
Classic Strange is most definitely above Zeus leonidas. Hes stronger then certain abstracts and can take the powers from Skyfathers. theres no reason to assume Zeus wouldn't get stomped just like all the other lords of chaos.
And Yes Juggernaut did stalemate Nightmare in his realm which would put Cttorak way above most abstracts
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Mar 26th, 2011 05:54 PM
