Lord Mar-vell vs Molecule Man

Originally posted by zopzop

Mr. M, my friend, you ignored the most important part of my post.

Originally posted by zopzop

The reason why he wasn't "depowered" was because he NEVER
had his full post retcon power to begin with. He only had the sliver he
hid, then reclaimed, inside Marsha.

Owen Reece,
because he was a mortal/human being who's essence was merged with a CCU,
can call upon any imagination to come true.

The portion Owen took back from Marsha was all he needed
to install in him the potential for omnipotence.

As Kubik stated: "Theoretically our powers should be equal"

That right there tells us this "never had his full power" or "sliver"
argument doesn't relate here.

Kubik continues
and adds that Owen's potential is far greater than any mere omnipotent as himself,
due to said reason I mentioned
which is basically because he's a human with CCU power inside him.

Long live humans. 🙂

Originally posted by zopzop

How does one explain his "power up" and win vs Beyonder (an
almost FULL Cube Being) then subsequent depowerment and
humiliation vs Sentry?

His "depowerment" was courtesy of himself after the Beyonder fight.

btw. He wasn't humiliated by Sentry, in fact, exploded Sentry on 3 separate occasions,
before Sentry caught Owen distracted stopping a bomb coming at
em he thought was a nuke.

Why is this being overlooked as well?

Originally posted by zopzop

If anything his fight with Sentry is consistent with his loses vs
Klaw and Aaron. His fight vs the Beyonder is the anomaly.

Vs Klaw and Aaron ... Owen could not control organic Molecules or warp space-time.

-----------------------------------

Vs Beyonder ... Owen (as MM) could control organic Molecules & warp space-time.

----------------------------------

Vs Sentry ... Owen could control organic Molecules but could not warp space-time.

----------------------------------

Conclusion:

While Owen was more powerful vs Sentry, than Klaw or Aaron,
Owen was no where near as powerful when he took on Sentry than
when he battled Beyonder.

1. Owen (control over organic & in-organic molecules ... able to warp space-time)

2. Owen (control over organic & in-organic molecules)

3. Owen (control over in-organic molecules only)

-----------------------------------

Sentry, after getting effortlessly owned defeated a distracted #2 Owen.

Which is still major upgrade points for Sentry.

^^^ ++++++++

Proof for my post above!

++++++++++++

On Panel:

How Owen got his "power up"

------------------------------------

On Panel:

This is why Owen Reece's unlimited side is far more powerful than a Cube being:

------------------------------------

On Panel:

At the end of the Beyonder fight, Owen Reece takes over his unlimited side
and de-powers himself again by burying his unlimited side within his sub-conscious.

This is why when he confronts Sentry,
he's not at the same power-level as when he battled Beyonder. 🙂

-------------------------

Owen Reece, fully unleashed, destroys Mar-vell and Sentry together imo.

++++++++++

Ok, so we probably wanna see how Owen lost to Klaw and Aaron.

Yes, we know Owen was de-powered, but still we're interested.

++++++++++

De-powered (can't control organic molecules or warp space-time) Owen Reece

loses to Klaw due to jobbing:

... hey there, I took away your blaster but still,
be my guest and please hit me while I stand here in glory.

------------------------------------------------

De-powered (can't control organic molecules or warp space-time) Owen Reece

loses to Aaron due to ridiculous jobbing: (on a cartoon scale)

If yall actually read the scans you'll notice ...

Owen was clowning around the entire fight, and jobbing into a loss,
even telling Aaron his weakness concerning organic molecules,
even waiting for Aaron to attack to show off by re-directing what
Aaron threw at em.

For jobbing and waiting like an idiot for Aaron to attack he lost.

------------------------------------------------

I'm assuming yall know the Sentry fiasco so I won't disssect that any further,
except to add,
that Owen wanted to fail according to the friends he created,
who were an image of his sub-conscious.

I'm not conclusively sayin he gave Sentry the win, but it's possible he eased his own demise.

After all, all he kept saying through out his appearances was that he wanted to be left alone.
and either he wanted everyone else to go away, or he wanted to go away.

Just sayin.

owen at his best wins

owen at jobber lvls loses

very simple friends

current reece doesn't have death's power to stop mar-vell

mr. m would u agree death>eternity or they =

Originally posted by guy222

mr. m would u agree death>eternity or they =

Abraxas (destruction)

Eternity/Infinity = Death/Oblivion ... balanced by Galactus' existence.

Necessity - Eternity /Infinity
Equity - Galactus
Vengeance - Death /Oblivion

Entropy (death-re-birth of space-time)

---------------------------------

Eternity/Infinity are responsible for doing more though.

As space (Infinity) expands with time (Eternity) the landscape for reality is set.

For universes to properly function within this cosmic landscape of reality (space-time)
Eternity/infinity are complimented by other abstract concepts.
The most important below them would be Lord Chaos & Master Order,
who also represent a balance, that is,
"the balance of opposite forces" between the chaos & order within universes.

This is what's required to maintain a functioning universe.

Mistress Love and Master Hate are the emotional balance within universes.

Then there's the Universe's (or Eternity's) children,
who play a role to maintain properly functioning life within reality:

(in no particular order)

The Phoenix Force, the Celestials, the Makers, the Anomaly, Origin, Unbeing,

Empathy, Eulogy, Expediency, Entropy, Epiphany, Enmity & Epoch

---------------------------

That's about it from what I know.

Mr. M, I have those issues. You are telling me Owen with a SLIVER of the power he had post retcon was > than his "full" pre retcon self? Never! Think about what that implies if true.

The writer of that issue was an idiot. And later writers took care of that stupidity (his loss and death at the hands of Sentry).

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
^ 👆 Again, depowered Owen.

... now you're just being completely ignorant after being corrected with context several times.

One good showing against a character who's far beyond most characters (particularly Lord Mar-Vell). One loss against someone with a higher raw level of matter manipulation. Reality check: Lord Mar-Vell didn't display any matter manipulation close to even what Owen displayed during Dark Avengers. Sentry at his peak fights Photon Genis-Vell toe-to-toe in energy manipulation and Thor toe-to-toe physically. So just because you don't think it's a good showing is practically meaningless. Particularly when you keep acting like current Molecule Man had bad showings in two meaningless fights where he's 1) mind-controlled and 2) depowered.

I'm curious... Him having molecular control limitations... doesn't have a thing to do with being mind raped. His mind IS that vulnerable.. with molecular limitations or without.

Originally posted by zopzop

Mr. M, I have those issues.

You are telling me Owen with a SLIVER of the power he had post retcon was > than his "full" pre retcon self?

Never! Think about what that implies if true.

zop, how did you imagine this in any of my posts?

"Pre-retcon" Owen Reece has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

Originally posted by zopzop

The writer of that issue was an idiot.
And later writers took care of that stupidity
(his loss and death at the hands of Sentry).

I'm confident I laid out all the sound reasons that address your good questions.

Anything further is simply not wanting to accept the on panel facts,
which I presented and evidently corroborates everything I posted,
in this case, no one can debate you out of believing what you do.

Peace & Loves though 🙂

Originally posted by Mr Master

Originally posted by Mr Master
😐

zop, how did you imagine this in any of my posts?

"Pre-retcon" Owen Reece has nothing to do with anything I wrote.

I disagree.

I'm confident I laid out all the sound reasons that address your good questions.

Anything further is simply not wanting to accept the on panel facts,
which I presented and evidently corroborates everything I posted,
in this case, no one can debate you out of believing what you do.

Peace & Loves though 🙂

No, I understand it's not what you wrote Mr. M but in one of those scans (the one in the fight vs the Beyonder), Owen says he's far more powerful now than when Beyonder bested him during Secret Wars (I'm assuming the writer meant Secret Wars II and not I but you never know with these guys). This is an impossibility. He only had a sliver of his POST retcon power he hid inside Marsha. How the hell could he be more powerful than when he fought the Beyonder during Secret War II when he has his "full" pre retcon power? This is why I say the fight he had vs Beyonder was pure PIS/CIS and is the anomaly in his post retcon appearances.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

I'm curious... Him having molecular control limitations... doesn't
have a thing to do with being mind raped. His mind IS that
vulnerable.. with molecular limitations or without.

He does this via brain molecules.

That past weakness may be gone. He's still a depressed man though. 🙁

Originally posted by zopzop

No, I understand it's not what you wrote Mr. M but in one of those
scans (the one in the fight vs the Beyonder), Owen says he's far more
powerful now than when Beyonder bested him during Secret Wars
(I'm assuming the writer meant Secret Wars II and not I but you
never know with these guys). This is an impossibility. He only had a
sliver of his POST retcon power he hid inside Marsha. How the hell
could he be more powerful than when he fought the Beyonder during
Secret War II when he has his "full" pre retcon power?

Remember, just cause parts of Secret Wars were retconned,
the event still took place,
and Beyonder did indeed defeat Owen in SSII.

Molecule Man is saying he's surpassed the level he was at
when he fought Beyonder in SSII.

Which is true, in SSII, Beyonder beat Owen, in this fight,
Owen beats Beyonder.

His statement is 100% accurate
and does not disrupt retconned continuity in the slightest.

** Lastly forget about the "sliver" argument as it does not pertain to Owen,
since he's a human being that so called "sliver" you've dubbed is enough
for him to acquire greater potential than Kubik can dream of.

That aside, the writers aren't even considering this "sliver" notion
cause Kubik outright said "theoretically our powers should be equal"
signifying that Owen's normal level should be that of a Cube being like himself.

He surpasses this level because he's a human being with CCU power,
unlike Kubik/Kosmos who are embodiments of pure energy/power,
without their power, their non-existent, while without power,
Owen's life-force continues.

This makes all the difference.

I suppose it's like a CCU in the hands of a sentient being. Anything is possible.

We already know a CCU > Cube being

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I'm curious... Him having molecular control limitations... doesn't have a thing to do with being mind raped. His mind IS that vulnerable.. with molecular limitations or without.

again

Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually I'm sure the writer is taking into account the retcon.

Remember, just cause parts of Secret Wars were retconned,
the event still took place,
and Beyonder did indeed defeat Owen in SSII.

Molecule Man is saying he's surpassed the level he was at
when he fought Beyonder in SSII.

Which is true, in SSII, Beyonder beat Owen, in this fight,
Owen beats Beyonder.

His statement is 100% accurate
and does not disrupt retconned continuity in the slightest.

** Lastly forget about the "sliver" argument as it does not pertain to Owen,
since he's a human being that so called "sliver" you've dubbed is enough
for him to acquire greater potential than Kubik can dream of.

That aside, the writers aren't even considering this "sliver" notion
cause Kubik outright said "theoretically our powers should be equal"
signifying that Owen's normal level should be that of a Cube being like himself.

He surpasses this level because he's a human being with CCU power,
unlike Kubik/Kosmos who are embodiments of pure energy/power,
without their power, their non-existent, while without power,
Owen's life-force continues.

This makes all the difference.

I suppose it's like a CCU in the hands of a sentient being. Anything is possible.

We already know a CCU > Cube being

And this is why I say it's impossible, Mr. M. On panel we know he only had a fraction of his post retcon power, how is it possible for him to be MORE powerful than when he had his full pre retcon power?

And Kubik's comment "theoretically we should be equal" just makes it worse. How would they be "theoretically" equal? Kubik is a full Cube Being, MM had a sliver of his power he hid inside Marsha before he formed a full Cube Being with Beyonder.

Post Retcon (FF 319?) :
Beyonder - a little more than half a Cube Being
Molecule Man - a little less than half a Cube Being
They form almost a full Cube Being - Kosmos (MM secretly hid a sliver of his power in Marsha)

Post Retcon (FF Annual 24?)
MM comes back and reclaims the sliver of his power he hid inside Marsha

There is NO way they could even be "theoretical" equals.

EDITED -
Typo

Originally posted by Mr Master
He's still a depressed man though. 🙁

EDIT: On second thought that would be awesome you would be constantly high on your powers.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi

again

Owen displaying mind-raping ability:

Quite efficiently too. He had Osbourn juggling different realities in his head.

---------------------------------------------

While Owen is mind-raping Orbourn,
he simultaneously teleports away to where Sentry reforms and explodes him for a second time.

---------------------------------------------

Owen proceeds to kill the other Dark Avengers one by one ...

... and the incredible thing is, he was still mind-raping Osbourn simultaneously all along:

---------------------------------------------

Owen even had a long conversation with Victoria Hand before Owen stopped mind-rape of Osbourn.

---------------------------------------------

That's very impressive imo.

Originally posted by zopzop
Owen says he's far more powerful now than when Beyonder bested him during Secret Wars (I'm assuming the writer meant Secret Wars II and not I but you never know with these guys). This is an impossibility. He only had a sliver of his POST retcon power he hid inside Marsha. How the hell could he be more powerful than when he fought the Beyonder during Secret War II when he has his "full" pre retcon power?

That said, Owen>>.5 of a CCU. I think that's the point they were trying to make. /shrug

^^ 👆 ... Kosmos became a full Cube being when Owen was separated from it.

Marvel isn't taking into account the portion Owen extracted.

I never heard that mentioned, or even alluded to anywhere as a relevance.

Originally posted by zopzop

And this is why I say it's impossible, Mr. M. On panel we know
he only had a fraction of his post retcon power, how is it possible
for him to be MORE powerful than when he had his full pre retcon
power?

And Kubik's comment "theoretically we should be equal" just makes
it worse. How would they be "theoretically" equal? Kubik is a full
Cube Being, MM had a sliver of his power he hid inside Marsha
before he formed a full Cube Being with Beyonder.

Post Retcon (FF 319?) :
Beyonder - a little more than half a Cube Being
Molecule Man - a little less than half a Cube Being
They form almost a full Cube Being - Kosmos (MM secretly hid a
sliver of his power in Marsha)

Post Retcon (FF Annual 24?)
MM comes back and reclaims the sliver of his power he hid inside
Marsha

There is NO way they could even be "theoretical" equals.

The thing is though,
Marvel isn't taking into account the "portion" Owen retrieved as
making him less powerful than when he had "more" of the CCU portion.

Evidently, it makes no difference.

To Marvel, and to us now since this is their company,
Owen has Cosmic Containment Unit power within him,
whatever the amount, because he's human,
and because he was "thrusting his limitations back for months"
his potential surpassed that of a Cube being by far.

Evidently, those are the facts.

Mar-Vell turns into Marsha and beats the bejimmies out of Molecule Man

Originally posted by Galan007
Because thanks to the retcon, Beyonder=half of a CCU. He was never more than that (even in Secret Wars.)

And the crazy thing is Owen has less power than that! He only had the sliver of power he had post retcon that he stored inside Marsha.

So Owen with a SLIVER of his post retcon power (little less than half a cube being) >>>>> Beyonder (a little less than a FULL Cube Being, missing only the sliver of power that Molecule Man hid inside Marsha)?

Worse, according to Kubik that issue :

MM with a sliver of his post retcon power is theoretically equal to Kubik.

That entire story was one big clusterf--k.

Originally posted by Mr Master
^^ 👆 ... and Kosmos became a full Cube being when Owen was separated from it.

Marvel isn't taking into account the portion Owen extracted.

I never heard that mentioned, or even alluded to anywhere as a relevance.

I see where you're coming from and in a perfect world order
of one's design you'd probably be right.

The thing is though,
Marvel isn't taking into account the "portion" Owen retrieved as
making him less powerful than when he had "more" of the CCU portion.

Evidently, it makes no difference.

To Marvel, and to us now since this is their company,
Owen has Cosmic Containment Unit power within him,
whatever the amount, becuase he's human,
and because he was thrusting his limitations back for months"
his potential surpassed that of a Cube being by far.

Evidently, those are the facts.

Even assuming Marvel (more likely that one writer) didn't take the "sliver" thing into account, how do you explain his subsequent pwnage by Sentry?

Again, no matter how you look at it, it's his fight with Beyonder that's the anomaly, not his other fights with Klaw/Aaron/Sentry.