Ares had assimilated his body INSIDE the body of masterson, of course he was hit by the lightning.
Hera appeared after Crystal was seen looking for him. That's not a proof he wasn't KOED.
That wasn't my point.
While the other was actively resisting? Herc effortlessly lifted his hands in the air and slammed them twice on ground. I see that as Herc lifting his arms twice and slamming them down.
He assumed it, later Thor himself said that he had been bestowed by his strength. Nah, those are because he was a mortal in a god's body. No. Heimdall had banished Thor deep inside Masterson's subconscious when he and Thor were merged, so Masterson was the only personality in their merged bodies.
You think Ares was hurt by the lightning as well and that he recovered before Masterson with no other factors? Your Thor hate is legitimately clouding your judgement. Thunderstrike alone has been shown to have greater resistance against lightning then Hercules (Don't remember if he was mortal or immortal but my point stands).
Ares became some sort of spirit and entered Eric's body. Why would he have been hurt significantly by Eric's lightning? How does this make sense when his ENTIRE plan is to have Hercules kill Eric while Ares was in his body? It was the shock of lightning that exercised him from Eric's body, not the damage as only the thunder god can wield the power of Mjolnir. Yup, Hercules somehow straight up enduring lightning better then Thor is a stupid argument in light of everything.
This entire scene together would take only moments. If he heard the conversation how is it NOT prove that he was conscious? What does Crystal "looking after him" even mean? Do you think she broke some salt capsules under his nose or something?
Yes, it is. Do you not understand the meaning of leverage? Hercules could literally force most of his upper body on the equivalent of Eric's forearm and biceps. HUGE difference in applicable force. Hercules EFFORTLESSLY slammed his hands down twice on the ground? It didn't look like to you that he it required a great deal of effort in these panels?
So now Hercules slammed his arm down, FORCED Eric's arm all the way over his head, just so he can slam it back up? Why do you always have to go to stupid extremes?
And why is that not applicable? This was Eric after a very long stint in his career as Thor. Lol, your dishonesty is outstanding. Thor says he bestowed upon him great strength but in that very panel says Eric's arm and hammer pale before his: (please log in to view the image)
There was an Asgardian enchantment or something in the hammer that gave him the body of Thor. That is why he could still become Thor after they had been separated.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Mar 4th, 2014 at 05:38 PM
Yes, as Hercules points out that the shock of lightning casted him out. And Herc was legitimately shown as better resistance than masterson here.
Not spirit, he assimilated his body with Masterson. That's how he was possessing people back in the day. Yeah, he got shocked but didn't took the lightning. Do you even hear how stupid that sounds. That's what happened. Thor got one upped.
Where he was shown sprawled out unmoving while Herc was already moving. How does that proves your argument?
It could've been anything, the scene was clear in showing that Herc recovered earlier. You dissecting it wouldn't change that.
That's not what happens in comics most of the time. Leverage is relevant but only when its specified that a character is getting overpowered by bad leverage. Herc didn't tell that he got a leverage advantage on Eric, quite opposite actually.
Or do you prefer that Eric was shown stronger by forcing his arm upwards there? Why do you always go against what actually happened on panel when it suits you?
He was still plagued by self doubt. Eric directly points out that he was bragging. Just before that Eric stated that they both wield EXACT same power and a mad, bloodlusted Thor was unable to overpower him.
As pointed out by many, Thor went mad around that time so anything he says about his strength and power should be taken with a grain of salt. Not for you perhaps, right?
I'm not either, I just wrestled in high school. I don't see why artists shouldn't be expected to do a little research of things like anatomy and the fighting styles of the characters they're portraying, to be honest.
Though the art is so ugly that I can't with a straight face imply that they would be capable of doing so.
So you think Ares displayed better lightning durability then Masterson straight up? And no mind control or whatever was in the works? That he endured a lightning bolt that could have potentially been fatal to Hercules just as well as he did?
Lol, thanks for invalidating your entire argument. I've learned it doesn't particularly matter what the person I'm debating thinks, as long as everyone else knows its bullshit.
Also, your shit still doesn't make sense as the entire point of the encounter makes it clear that Ares is not physically affected by the damage Masterson endures.
What are you talking about? He turned ghostly and possessed (The actual word used) Masterson or whatever. What does assimilated even mean? That his body was part of Masterson's? How does that even make sense if he wanted Hercules to kill Eric?
Yes, the shock of the lightning bolt freed him. He just wasn't hit by the actual lightning, there is a vast difference as he was possessing Eric who was hit. This isn't rocket science.
That he was at best down for a second or more then Hercules despite having been mind controlled by Ares.
Basically, I have no answer but I like it so I'm sticking with it? What do you think Crystal bending over Masterson -for a panel- changed as he heard the argument with Hera/Hercules right afterward?
You want to give Hercules the strength advantage because he forced Eric's arm down, if you want to micro-analyze, don't complain when others do the same. From that position, Hercules has a HUGE advantage in applicable force.
And using your own logic, when a character is straight up overpowered, it's often made very clear who was stronger or at least even hinted at.
I prefer you stop being stupid and we can forget analyzing 3 panels like retards but that isn't likely to happen. So yes, if Hercules was stronger because he forced Masterson's arm down a few inches, then Masterson is stronger still, by a much larger degree I might add, because he forced it back up from an incredibly disadvantageous position.
That wasn't self-doubt or him whining, that was an estimated guess of how they match up. Throughout the fight, he was commenting on Thor's advantages, because they were in fact advantages that Thor had. This was Masterson at the end of his career as Thor when he became a FAR more competent warrior and so on (As noted by Heimdall and others). Nothing about his fight with Thor indicated that he was losing confidence again, he was just as aggressive.
And in the same fight, he said that Thor had the strength advantage. Not only does there not need to be a contradiction (Overall power is different from strength), why the hell would you give something he shouts out in the heat of battle against an opponent precedence over an assessment he makes to himself?
Probably on average, sure, but Thor based on sheer will power alone would tank attacks that buckle Masterson. We have plenty of examples indicating that he is no Thor.
And why does this matter? Eric = Thor in lightning resistance so that means Hercules > Thor in lightning resistance or something? If so, that's pretty faulty reasoning based on the circumstances alone and that Masterson is no Thor. On his bad days. It would explain your crazy obtuseness in this discussion however.
And as I said, it turns out his body was actually an enchantment on Mjolnir or whatever.
Not that this matters, so I'll stop with this avenue of discussion.
No, not for me, because while Thor was enraged while fighting Masterson (Because he hit Sif), he was still very much sane and in this issue, he was just the same Thor. In the next few issues, he starts getting progressively more violent, getting into fights and so on, but it's not until later on that he becomes insane or delusional. Although why would you not take his own word about his power? Blood and Thunder was proved that he was stronger then most people imagined.
Simply put, the Madness arc started when Starlin came on. This was still DeFalco writing, before any hints of insanity were even mentioned.
Anyways, stick on topic, this is an irrelevant tangent.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Mar 5th, 2014 at 08:31 PM
And why is that so ludicrous? You think Thunderstrike having better resistance than Hercules is fine but this isn't? GTFO with your BS.
Who died and made you king here? I am stating what happened on panel, you're just BSing your way out of it. "LOLZ, ares showed better resistance. That can't happen." Give me a reason why that invalidates anything at all?
Despite Hercules saying he was freed by Masterson due to the shock and he's lying face down? Oh rage.
Who the **** knows? If he turned ghostly then why was his body freed from Masterson due to the shock?
Tell me, does that somehow made sense in your mind? How the **** did he get shocked when he was ghostly and didn't even get attacked by the lightning?
Again with this? The mental control didn't decrease his durability. If that had happened to Herc, you'd be crowing how Thor outperformed him.
That he recovered later than Herc?
Who is micro-analyzing? The guy who is basically saying what happened on panel or the guy who is trying to actually micro-analyze the showing by using leverages and what not?
Heh, and Hercules is stronger than bot Thor and Iron man, right?
Of course it was. He was doubting himself because he was comparing himself to thor to get Sif. Heh, only you could find advantages for Thor where none exist. No, he was again doubting himself.
He assumed. Later he stated quite opposite. How the **** is Masterson weaker but equally powerful as Thor? God damn it rage.
Where Eric flat out stated why that happened as Thor is a warrior born with centuries of experience?
Who cares? He showed that he could take shots as well as Thor in direct comparison.
No. Its just to show that Herc can take lightning as well as Thor. Your paranoia knows no bounds.
Scan stating so please.
Or not.
We have different meanings of being the same Thor apparently. Where his equal BRB pushed his shit in when he stopped holding back?
Not true. He beat BRB pretty savagely in 461 who worried that he was going insane.
You don't think Ares having better lightning resistance then Thor is incredibly ludicrous? Or him recovering at the same time from an attack that might have been fatal to Hercules? What the hell is wrong with you? Do you not understand that to come to the conclusions you are, you'd have to also ignore pretty much everything we know about the respective character when there are perfectly reasonable explanations in the comic?
Thunderstrike having better resistance against LIGHTNING specifically, not anything else. Which based on their respective domains does make sense. Not to mention this was mortal Hercules (I think).
Why are you saying if? That's what happened. He turned ghostly and as we know, doing damage to Eric did not physically affect his body. He was still possessing Eric's body and was expelled not unlike demons or whatever often are in fiction.
Eric getting hit by LIGHTNING was enough of a SHOCK to expell him out. I don't mean shock as in he literally got subjected to bolts of electricity. I mean shock as in a large scare/surprise that unsettled him etc. Words have multiple meanings man.
I didn't say it would decrease his durability. I did point out that it was a necessary factor in his recovery time.
To determine Hercules overpowering Masterson you would have to micro-analyze because you're basing it on him moving his arm a few inches. Hercules and Thor are equal not clones, they often have back and forth fights as you yourself noted. Which is why Hercules moving it down and then Eric moving it back up is just par for the course.
Why are you trying to bait me to go off on a tangent about an irrelevant scan? Nowhere was it hinted, much less made clear, that Hercules was stronger then Thor. And as someone who has read the era, under that writer, his stance was pretty clear on that.
Doubt would be Masterson saying he doesn't think he can do this. Not accurate assessments of Thor having a strength advantage, being a battle hardened warrior who can dance around him etc. Besides, at this point into his Thor career, he had come into his own and was very confident. Not to mention he was being compelled into a rage.
There is a difference. We're discussing a comic where Masterson was stated to have the power of Thor but Ares was able to possess him solely because he wasn't a true immortal and was far more vulnerable to certain attacks. On the surface that is also a contradiction but it doesn't have to be if you use even a modicum of intelligence.
That's not what he said at all. He "flat out stated" that even with the hammer he still would not have the advantage because Thor's a warrior born: http://postimg.org/image/rcypzx7i5/
Not that Thor lifted him up over his head and tossed in a contest of strength because of his experience.
What? If anything, most indirect comparisons indicate that Masterson CANNOT take shots as well as Thor. Did you read DeFalco's run?
Sure, if we ignore the context of Eric Masterson incident and the fact that Eric is no Thor.
It is the same Thor. No Madness was hinted on until the next issue and that in itself took a while as the Valkyrie slowly corrupted Thor's mind.
Why is this a relevant reply when discussing the accuracy of Thor's words in the same issue? Can you please stick on topic and stop posting red herrings?
Which was written by Starlin and Marz. They came on at #460 (DeFalco's last was #459) and immediately started hinting at Thor having somewhat of an anger problem that had been increasingly growing for a while since his return (A lot of violent bar fights during the time passed between issues and so on).
The comic we're discussing is #459 by DeFalco when Thor was perfectly sane. Which is why referencing Blood and Thunder is not relevant at all.
What the scan shows. Iron Man asked Thor to help restrain Hercules. He flings them away as they attempt to do so.
Let me guess? Hercules conclusively overpowered Thor (Although we know how restraining works at times) and even temporarily knocked him out because he was gone for two panels?
No, just like you don't think Thunderstrike having better resistance than Herc is ludicrous. When it was specifically stated and you're injecting your own fantasies? Nope.
I would've to see the scene to gauge that feat.
Nope, its your interpretation and it doesn't fits with how Ares functions.
See what I meant by microanalyzing.
Really? Where was that implied?
Heh, but Thor managing to flip Masterson off is a sign of superiority?
But Defalco was writing Thor as stronger than Masterson, right?
Pretty lame excuses if you ask me. Masterson was doubting himself pretty hard in that issue.
Because his mind was vulnerable, his body was as powerful as Thor. Its not the first time it has happened, Red Norvell had the same problem and he beat Thor's ass in the ground
Funny that Masterson wrestled mjolnir from Thor in the very same panel and he declared that Thor is a warrior born while he was flying.
That's not true. He also KOED ulik in four punches while he was pressed when Thor couldn't do that in like a dozen mjolnir shots just two issue ago. Guess he was stronger
Thor is no Eric either.
Nope, it was revealed that the separation from Eric was what triggered the madness.
What? Thor said that Eric's arm and hammer pales against his arm and hammer. Now mjolnir>mjolnir?
Oh sorry, forgot it was Starlin.
SMH.
Nope. They were restraining him as he flung them away.
Nope, he overpowered Thor and Iron man together. You were very quick to show Thor breaking off from Herc's grip as to how he's superior but now making excuses where Herc legitimately looked stronger than Thor?
Really, a week later and all you've done is just repeat the same predictable crap as usual? I almost missed this post too. I wish I would have now.
Anyways, I don't even remember what my original point was anymore so I'll just leave it at this unless you have some new insight outside of what's already been said? If not let me summarize: Eric Masterson is not relevant at all to Thor (The writer has flat out stated that he's no Thor) as has been continuously proven. At his very best, I think he was, or close enough not to matter except against the real Thor, but we're discussing a scenario where he was mind controlled.
And Hercules would lose here.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Mar 12th, 2014 at 07:34 PM
In denial about what? I thought the post was more recent, but it was 4, not that it matters.
No he didn't. Hercules was going insane and Iron Man/Thor tried to restrain a friend. As we know, someone much weaker can restrain someone and even beings much stronger can fail to do so. I'm guessing it's because they're trying to hold back an opponent without damaging them. And Thor was just grabbing his arm as Hercules burst out.
In about two issues later, under the same writer, they both fought the First Man and we saw how they fared respectively. Also, stop trying to illicit a reaction from me, you're not very good at it.
Blood Oath was chronologically their second fight btw. Either Thor got better at hand to hand or Hercules got worse, either way, it's not relevant anymore.
I don't even know what you're talking about here. Do you mean I'm wrong because I said you replied a week later instead of 4 days?
I don't just look at the pretty pictures. Based on what Iron Man is saying, Thor was just starting to restrain Hercules as he went berserk. Not that it matters, as we know flinging someone away, particularly when they are attempting to restrain you peacefully, doesn't require equal strength, much less superior.
Actually, good point, I'd forgotten about the Marvel Team-Up reference. It said in the caption box that in the morning, he moved Manhattan or whatever in the Spider-Man team up but how does that change the huge disparity?
That is a HUGE difference in comparison. I just read the comic and at no point was it specifically said he was much weaker or anything of the sort. At best you can assume he wasn't quite at 100% but like I said, that doesn't not change the disparity. Although I'm sure that if the tables were reversed, you wouldn't give Thor such benefit of the doubt.
Anyways, my point for bringing this up is because you're arguing this writer had Hercules overpower Iron Man/Thor at the same time. For anyone who has read Conway's run on Thor, it's pretty clear that Hercules is at best Thor's equal and there are times, such as against the Destroyer, that Thor has flat out looked better.
It's good to put things into perspective like that.
No, the most recent telling would be the fight under Pak not that it changes anything. Chronologically it is their second fight which changes things drastically and makes it irrelevant to current standings. Normally I'd be more lenient but I've seen you use similar logic when it favors you.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Mar 13th, 2014 at 07:29 PM
Same as half power Thor struggling with a tractor. Silver age goofiness. Herc wasn't at his best as Thor notes.
Herc was never down as he himself says and he was fighting as Sif says to Thor off panel.
Is it? Armak was overpowering Thor as well. So full power Thor would struggle with two tractors? Why not? If Thor hadn't been at 100% I'd give him same treatment.
And here Herc looked better than Thor.
It is?
Its the only fight where a result was made, Herc would choke out Thor in h2h. Thor has no such showings against Herc in h2h so the edge would go to Herc. Its like saying Let the battle begin doesn't matter since its a past story and Thor has stalemated Hulk after that.
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