Its not like phoenix has suddenly gotten power over them its how it was in the beginning, before the retcon and now its the case again. Even during the retcon, when phoenix was just another cosmic entity, it still had power over beings like galactus as was shown during the retcon era and also during that timethe phoenix forec was shown to be AT LEAST on a par with the likes of eternity in comics such as Xmen Forever. So there has been no massive power increase at all. I kinda like the idea of a human evolving into something greater than the abstracts as their ultimate potential. I think phoenix is a good concept. The abstracts arent perfect and lack that which makes phoenix perfect for jump-starting creation. As stated in 'The End'. A human touch. Insider knowledge basically.
no pheonix was BELOW abstracts like eternity death etc, but now shes way above them, remember, that abstracts cant create a universe and jean did that. and the very idea of the pheonix is based on chinese, eastern mithology, n it was supposed to be the embodiement of desire and all life yet unborn, hence it should not be o par with major concepts such as death, eternity and infinty, which form the basics of the universe, and pf should not be the force that created the abstracts and should not work on multiversal level, thas why i hate this new ultra powerful pheonix. besides im sick of jean grey and the pheonix anyway,
In the early 90's, there was a piece that explained Phoenix as an entity without much consciousness until she was approached by the three wizards Feron, Necrom and Merlyn and eventually bonded in particular to Feron himself (Necrom scared it away when he tried to steal the power and injured her, causing her to flee). This White Crown is a newer concept that was not prevelent before, considering Oblivion and Galactus (at different times) showed her ignorance about herself before.
Im a phoenix fan remember you dont need to tell me what its the embodiment of or remind me its retcon power level. Youre very wrong im afraid. The retcon phoenix still had multiversal power. Its retcon origin (which is now void) had it as the sentient psychic energy of all beings in existence. It was still said to be the entity that ended the universe in the natural scheme of things and was still said to be the first spark of life. The retcon phoenix connected all the alternate universes together by projecting a doorway throug the entire multiverse. The retcon phoenix still bested Galactus more than once with no trouble and the retcon phoenix was said by eternity in Xmen forever to be the assurance of life after death. It was the force that would ultimately consume the likes of him and then create a new life. This was retcon phoenix. There has been no massive power upgrade. It status and origins have just been changed. As i said before retcon phoenix was shown to be at least on Eternitys level. At least. The original Phoenix and the one what is current continuity is above LT.
When Galactus fought Pho , He said that the force had it's limits.
Again this got confirmed by Pho her self.
As for The new Phoenix she is defiantly above Eternity.
LT is still the man - like I said before X-men contradicts other marvel comics who states otherwise.
Phoenix has never been not acknowledged by entities, or LT
As for being multiversal doesn’t have much meaning: death has power over death of the multiverse: but that concept has been owned by other being before.
If she did create everything wouldn’t they ask for help, or even mention her?
Retcon Phoenix was still said by eternity himself to be the fire that consumed the universe and started it again. Retcon Phoenix joint all of the alternate universes of the multiverse together. Retcon Phoenix punked galactus on more than one occassion. In my opinion that places retcon phoenix at least on par with eternity but more than likely above it.
Youre disagreeing because in one battle galactus said you draw on near limitless power? Thats ridiculous KG because even beings like LT has limits. The only being we assume doesnt is TOAA. Terms like limitless and invulnerable are thrown around in comics. Galactus said Phoenix has near limitless power and he was right for retcon phoenix, he was using the term literally. galactus is said to have limitless power but you know thats untrue, he has fluctuating power levels and phoenix is more than a match for him.
"LT is still the man - like I said before X-men contradicts other marvel comics who states otherwise.
Phoenix has never been not acknowledged by entities, or LT "
LT is still the man youre quite right. He guards the multiverse, which the primal force of creation created and is one with. The primal force of creation is second only to TOAA as stated and that has never been retconned. The retcon made phoenix into a separate cosmic entity which wasnt actually THE primal force of creation but was a part of the process. That could explain why during the retcon period things such as the infinity being sprouted up out of nowhere but who knows. The phoenix now actually IS THE primal force of creation and as such is above LT. Phoenix is ignored in the comics but that doesnt say anything about its power, because beings which are featured as obstacles for the new cosmic flavour of the month you know would get laughed off by phoenix. Its sad but its slowly changing as writers are starting to realise that the phoenix situation is here to stay. i mean as you saw for yourself kg phoenix was accredited for the creation of the universes in FF.
are you saying that pheonix force is above the tribunal, i dont believe that, and anyway, the primal force of creation bullshit might be true at the universe level but not at the multiverse level, the multiverse was not made by the pheonix force, it was made by the INFINITE BEING when it commited suicide, so dont start shootin off and saying that pheonix force is the force that created the multiverse because that was the infinite being.
Eternity, Galactus (full power), Celestials, even cubes have limitless power it’s been stated by marvel time after time.
Limitless power doesn't mean you can't be beaten(and limitless power does not equal God).
As for she created everything and the FF issue. It's is still an assumption (could be rite , but we don’t know yet).
And the when jean talked to Eternity - She wasn’t going to create a new Universe. Humans will become (eternity and the cycle goes on- Phoenix is the process that helps this cause)
- So maybe the force(is the big bang of universe that help each universe , get into another?)
FF (Reed) say Phoenix Force = Big Bang = Universe --- Not multiversal. (If you want to use that)
Big Bang = Creation of the Universe - other comic had different theory for the creation of Universe.
ya marvel keeps bring creation - But creation could mean the Universe as well - doesn't have to multiversal.
Do you have actually proof to where it says she created the Multiverse?
Being a multiversal being doesn’t mean it created the multiverse
Nah thats the retcon origin which has now been made made void. Basically those wizards were looking for a power source to join the universes of the multiverse together. They found that in Phoenix. That origin got scrapped
The white crown phoenix is far from a new concept. Its an old concept of Chris C's from back in 1980. If you want evidence check out classic Xmen, issues 8, 42 and 43. Its just been cemented as continuity again by Grant M on New Xmen and endsong.
Actually that was Merlyn with the matrix that made the connection of universes. Necrom was power hungry (he extracted a part of Phoenix for anti-Phoenix) and Feron saw the Phoenix as a spiritual kin. They each had a different purpose when the entity was first confronted.
I'm not completely sure what you mean by classic, unless it's those comics that rereleased the older Uncanny comics. I'm estimating this 42 and 43 is revolving around the Dark Phoenix Saga? I saw no mentioning of a White Crown and Phoenix was considered one character, not a main with avatars beneath it.
I don't see Phoenix as more powerful than LT. Being the spark of life and the bringer of death is just the PF's purpose. LT's purpose is keeping order in the multiverse.
Phoenix = Multiversal life fertilizer, and spark of the fire which burns away old growth and refertilizes the soil to grow life anew.
LT = The Owner of the Farm's Head Farm Hand laying in a canopy wearing overalls and a wifebeater with mustard and ketchup stains on it with a shotgun in one hand and a 6 pack of beer in the other, waiting for a wolf to come on to the Owner's farm and get shot in the damn head for trespassing in the Owner's yard.
Fertilizer isn't more powerful than the Farmer's Head Farm Hand. I'm sure if Jean were to get out of hand and become a universal threat LT would put her over his knee and spank her with his fingerless hands.
I dont need to debate this because its stated in the comics. Have a perusal of this thread for the appropriate comic book references. Primal force of creation is second only to TOAA. end of.
KG Lt is stated as the most powerful in Marvel at the time of the retcon when phoenix was just another cosmic entity, TOAA connection was not being pushed and the phoenix was generally being ignored by anything other than X-related titles.
Before the retcon the primal force of creation is stated as second to TOAa. It is the force that creates everything. It is the force that is linked to TOAA in name and through symbology. The pre retcon phoenix is now the one which has been made current continuity. That is why endsong supported GM's reversions to Chris C's original deas and now FF has mentioned the Phoenix as being responsible for creation. Its slowly happening but other titles are starting to acknowledge phoenix in the hierarchy. Give it time and you'll see.
Retcon happened when 2003(and this is just you guess?)?
- Where did it say she created everything in multiverse?
- Only evidence we have is Reed who says
Phoenix Force = Big Bang = Universe
- Eternity says Phoenix will help guide humans and create big bang.
No where does it say she created everything.
The end: LT was the man and was recognized (that shit is new)
All you basing you theories on is the watcher Words before the original retcon?
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Jun 15th, 2005 03:30 PM
