Simple, Supes can have his high end feats, but outside of feats that come about about due to his specific powerset, we can safely assume Cap can replicate them due to his status. His appearances are few, and often as a supporting character, thus using his 'screentime' on big plot-driven feats is not efficient use of it, why do so when they can simply reiterate his status as Supes' true equal in a single panel?
Like Jake said putting Cap as equal to Supes is in no way low balling Supes, rather, its parameterizing Cap.
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Last edited by CosmicComet on Apr 18th, 2011 at 01:15 AM
There was a statement in the arc where Eclipso possessed Superman, and there was one in an older book where Marvel stated that Superman is faster, iirc. Yes, I know it was Earth 5 Captain Marvel; I was being facecious, more commenting on the "they're always portrayed as equals" thing rather than actually considering it as evidence.
Was talking about him throwing the fight in Superman/Batman, but Hawkman was there too, and we don't know what happened after that specifically.
They've been stated as relative equals, and are quite comparable. I just don't consider it outside the realm of possibility, given Superman's somewhat dynamic powerset, to put himself ahead of Billy.
Honest question: Going purely by feats, would you say that they're equal, in the same relative ball-park, or that one was superior to the other?
DC doesn't so much portray them as equals, rather just plays lip service to it anymore. Sure, they're in the same relative level (I'd put him closest to Clark out of anyone, for example), but a gap still exists, imo.
Billy has plenty of appearances, enough to get an idea of how powerful he is. Are you honestly saying that Billy could replicate every feat of strength or durability Superman has simply because Superman (like he has for half the League) has talked him up?
it's not stupidity, and Superman has done the exact same thing to people.
Superman gets elbowed out of nowhere; that's a cheap shot. Then, Superman puts his hand on Hercules' shoulder, and Hercules punches him through a wall. Are you honestly going to tell me that the fact that Superman didn't get back before KC Superman put Hercules down means that Herc beat Superman in a fight?
Which Eclipso possessed fight? Marvel's fought him twice while Superman's been possessed by Eclipso. There's also been mention in books where the two switched bodies and Superman remarked while he lost his vision and hearing based powers, he was still as fast and as strong as ever. And there was also the time where Superman was rocked by how much power Captain Marvel possesses when they shared a single body.
Concerning non-canon or non-mainstream Superman/Captain Marvel parallels, we have Kingdom Come, Justice, a huge wealth of the pre-crisis stories in which Superman only beats Captain Marvel because Marvel's power wanes while he's outside of Earth-S's native dimension. I think there's more evidence to show them being equals than Superman being clearly dominant than him, in any case.
I think Superman has the ability to amp more readily and easily than Marvel can and is overall more versatile, but the advantages Marvel does have and brings to the table evens the playing field.
Honestly? I would say they're portrayed as equals (with either one of them having several advantages over the other as far as their entire powerset/characterization goes) over all when they're directly compared to one another.
Yes, but the strength of Hercules doesn't normally stack with the strength of Atlas, like in the aforementioned arm-wrestling example. That was Captain Marvel, needing further amping in order to match the second weakest Superman in post-Crisis history, and there's no dancing around that, I'm sorry to say.
Post the specific increases in power that Captain Marvel has experienced, and let us compare. We both know you have no case, but if it makes you feel better, go.
Here's the correct route - if Captain Marvel didn't have the direct comparisons with Superman, would you be able to prove that he is as powerful as Superman?
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The Strength of Hercules stacks with the Power of Zeus, which in turn stacks with the Speed of Mercury and Stamina of Atlas and provides the extra "oomf" to the rest of Marvel's powers as the primary catalyst to them. All of his powers work together as part of a system. Not liking the fact that Captain Marvel shows that he's equal to Superman doesn't change that, I'm sorry to say. Making excuses for Superman or claiming "it's company policy for Captain Marvel to be at his level" and claiming "fanboy writers" want Captain Marvel at that level (which is...ironic, all things considered) doesn't help your argument, but you've since dropped that stance apparently as it paints your whole argument in a light that doesn't shine all that well.
Two examples specifically include when Marvel assumed the role of the Keeper of the Rock of Eternity and again when he ascended to Lord Marvel, becoming every bit as powerful as Shazam was. And the natural growth and experience he's had through the years and learning how better to tap into and control his powers. Trying to discredit them or ignore Captain Marvel's multiple instances of directly proving himself to be Superman's equal or peer doesn't make them non-existent nor does it somehow prove anything outside of "I don't like that Captain Marvel is on that level, so I'm going to complain about it".
Yes. The stamina of Atlas. Not the strength of Atlas. Only on that ocassion, Captain Marvel was abnormally using Atlas for strength - amping beyond his normal levels, and still, he could only match one of the weakest Superman.
"[...] and I'm thinking you can't beat the strength of Heracles and Atlas combined."
If this can't sink in the third time, then I'll consider it purposely trolling, and act accordingly.
Really now, Jake? What do those later versions of Marvel have to do with the versions that Superman has confronted - through different prior eras, and with Superman being at different powerlevels - and Marvel still inexplicably, within continuity, stalemating him?
Do I need to draw you a chart?
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In which world are the upgrades you mentioned relevant to the discussion at hand? Bizarro world?
I know your lack of arguments must be angering, but putting your fingers in your ear and going "SHUT UP CAPTAIN MARVEL HATER.DONT IGNORE WHATS ON PAGE" , when I'm explicitly not doing that, is considered trolling, no matter how coherent you may write it.
I'm not the one needing to 'get over it'.
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Last edited by Philosophía on Apr 18th, 2011 at 03:55 PM
Clark and Billy are basically equals for the most part. Superman will always "shine" more, but that comes with the territory when you're talking about DC comics.
I could believe Superman having a marginal stat edge but the difference would be minor. I mean to the point it'd be more or less a stalemate in something like a contest of strength.
I treat Captain Marvel as basically Superman +. The notion pisses off Superfags to no end though.
I think having the two of them on the same planet is silly. They're both supposed to be the ultimate superhero from what I understand. That can't happen in a shared Universe. This is an iffy subject of discussion.
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Last edited by Rage.Of.Olympus on Apr 18th, 2011 at 04:47 PM
So, no rebuttal about the Power of Zeus being the primary and arguably most potent and important aspect of Captain Marvel's powerset as well as the contributing factor to amplifying Cap's physical attributes across the board? Didn't think. Cap didn't need to "stack" Atlas and Hercules' strength to stalemate Superman arm wrestling for hours on end, either. Nor did such a technique was worth bringing up in virtually every encounter between the two before and since. Superman nearly losing his load after experiencing the Power of Shazam first hand doesn't help your case, either.
You asked for upgrades, I gave them to you. Essentially, you disagree with Cap's portrayal as Superman's equal, something DC has stuck to consistently for decades, post and pre-Crisis. That's fine, disagree with the portrayal, but don't try to write it off because you dislike it. And don't try to label "company policy" or "fanboys" as the cause for such things, especially when you know deep down if I or anyone were to say "Superman is only portrayed as good as he is because of company policy and fanboy DC writers" you would call that person out. You've done it before, Phil, so using that same kind of arguement for why it's nonsensical or otherwise invalide for CM to be = to Superman is hilarious and hypocritical.
Lol? Is that supposed to be funny? I'm not trolling this thread nor am I accusing you of trolling, even with "coherent" writing. I'm being quite rational by looking at what DC provides as as proof between the two characters and looking at their established history/showings/comparison/etc between them. Don't accuse me of trolling or try to snidely insinuate anything about my reading comprehension.
Yes, you do. DC thinks they're equals. Superman thinks they're equals. Comics shows them as equals. That's really it.
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