She forced Supes to enter a berserker rage state that he would never enter without said manipulation: (please log in to view the image)
^^That Supes=/=standard Supes. Unarguable.
And WW #219 was obviously released after Dianna/Zoom's battle in WW #214, thus is entirely irrelevant to Dianna's comment regarding Zoom's punching power.
This all depends on if SBP is time trapper also as was shown in one time line.
If it was the TT version of prime he stomps as his time manipulation / control is leagues above Zoom and all Zooms speed advantage would be gone.
Zoom appears to control S but to a significant degree (which is nuts)at first which implied that the speed force is an emergent phenomenon that came from S. Later on it seems like it was changed so S was not allowed to trump the speed force and so S became the emergent phenomenon. So as it stands now in an overall showing Zoom is on the level of lets say two flashes. But prime was intended to be a universal changer. It took the at least 3 flashes going suicidal to imprison prime since prime has no link to the speed force but the alternate regime of regular physics that he was using to counter the speed force users! So after that there were problems with the speed force so it was obvious in direct conflict with the Laws of the speed force that a being like prime be placed in which he did with out any physical damage. But speed force users were sacrificed if I remember correctly. So prime would win 6 or 7 out of 10 because zoom was written down ridiculous because he would have been unbeatable if kept at his original showing... He has since be altered to the the point of superman hitting him, having to rely on the speed force to travel through time etc! This is his character now at most a team buster never a pre-crisis kryptonian universal threat. Zoom and Wally beat Clark decisively but pre-crisis Prime is beyond what they have become overall.
...
No I didn't. I asked when Zoom has ever hit that hard before. I asked where the feats are that back up Zoom hitting that hard. I asked you to post a scan explaining why this is the only time he hit this hard. I didn't ask why he doesn't hit that hard, I asked why he only has one goddamned showing to back that up, and on panel reasons.
You chose to make up your own reason instead. I asked for proof, not "Galan proof". But I guess this gives you a reason to conveniently ignore the question.
Good for Wally. You want to know the difference between Zoom and Wally though? Wally has actually damaged and put down Superman level beings. Wally actually has scenes where he goes all out. We've seen Wally all out. We've seen his limits. We have a basis.
What you're trying to mislead everyone with Zoom is that he holds back all the time, and therefore all he can do is better, not the same, not lower, only better. You're creating a false representation of Zoom. One apparently never seen in comics according to you.
And that showing of power is backed up by absolutely no feat ever from him. It's like saying everytime Thor hits on the forum he's going to hit hard enough to rival the big bang. Or it's like saying Prime's durability is always at destroyed universe surviving levels. Never mind any feat where he gets hurt by less. Because that's the logic we apply to Zoom apparently. It wasn't pis, it was powerset!
But yes, I'm lowballing. I'm lowballing his highest feat. I'm lowballing feats you used as high feats. Does that make sense to you? Hell, I'm lowballing because I'm pointing out that every feat he has besides the Wonder Woman one has him hitting at a questionable level. Which is strangely backed up by the scan blitz you attempt at the end of your argument. So no, I'm the one that's lowballing... because everyone knows if a guy only has ONE feat that completely surpass every other feat he has in punching power, that is the one to use.
Like I stated at the start of this, you are blatantly highballing. You are clinging to one feat like crazy. But even using this feat, he failed to KO Wonder Woman... but I'm not allowed to point that out? I'm not allowed to point out him failing to KO Wonder Woman might directly equate into his inability to KO a VASTLY SUPERIOR being? How is this even logic? And how do you keep glossing over the fact that Zoom has never even come close to putting down a Superman level being?
Zoom hit "harder" than Superman in the same fight he failed to KO a blind Wonder Woman. And that sounds about right to you apparently. Let's say Zoom hits that hard in every fight.
And every single one of them is still standing. Every one of them. Bad. Every one of them he felt didn't contribute. Unharmed.
But you expect me to believe he only activates "Superman mode" just for villains or Wonder Woman level people? Again, you're making shit completely up. You have literally no basis except for the absolute defense of a PIS feat, and even then you have no basis. Your assumptions are completely off. Zoom doesn't activate "Superman mode" only for some occasions, he activates it under a writer who gave him a really high feat. That's it.
His methodology won't change based on what we've seen of Zoom. Galan Zoom might change, but not comic Zoom, at least not based on any sort of comic.
Does that sound like he's pulling punches to you? No, he's hitting them hard and basically saying they'll only be better if they can survive the beating.
Her dialogue made no sense is what I'm saying. I know you don't actually want to discuss the difference between Superman's punches and the one appearance of Zoom, but at least don't put words in my mouth.
But if "Lying to herself" means she thinks Zoom's punches hurt more than her getting bones broken, then yes, she was lying to herself. In fact, I think it's literally impossible for a punch that causes no damage to hurt more than a broken bone, unless it hits the liver, but I digress.
He punched a wall that Kal-L failed to retcon, and what he punched in the Phantom Zone is anyone's guess. However, all we're led to believe he has to do is just hit something really hard. He could hit the Earth, but possibly retconning Zoom, and destroying the planet would hinder Zoom too much... so I take it he won't do that. Zoom is fast after all.
So, Diana was actually saying "I've been hit by Superman, except the times when he actually hurt me, and this hurts more"? Or maybe she was saying "I've been hit by Superman, and this hurts more than that... outside the times he hit me the hardest he's ever hit me."
Seems about right following the logic going on here. If we don't count Sacrifice, "Doomsday" Superman was one of the more recent fights.
And he wasn't amped when he was "Doomsday", he was just really pissed off.
But basically, we just ignore the times he actually gave her a beating? Sure.
So yeah, I get that we just ignore how Zoom's attacks work then? All the after images in the attacks? All the rest of his history. Him hitting an amazon with a single looking punch and landing 200 punches? But yes, let's just assume he landed 7 attacks, because Zoom is definitely a single puncher... do you even read Zoom?
Though, 7 Superman level strikes on a blind Wonder Woman... Still.
I see butthurt has changed its meaning to mean anyone who disagrees with you.
But you did say that. The Superman level punches go against Zoom's entire history, and you choose to factor those in. You choose to ignore all of Zoom's lesser feats in history to account for "Superman level". You are no better than someone using one single low feat that goes against entire histories and using that as your main argument.
You are highballing. You are using a PIS feat, etc. You are constantly ignoring every other feat of Zoom in favor of one. And when I point out those other feats (which conveniently you've used in your favor) you say I'm lowballing. I'm factoring in history to say how hard Zoom should hit. You are using one feat.
Let's get a list of what you've posted as high feats and used in your favor, and all the "low feats" where he hit not-Superman level:
You posted him hitting the Rogues to relatively no effect.
You posted him blitzing Batman and Superman, and causing no damage.
You posted repeated showings of him hitting the Flashes and causing minimal damage. Hell, you've posted extended beatings of the Flashes where he doesn't cause a lot of damage.
And you expect me to just sit there and think the guy should hit Superman level? You get shocked that I'd point out in your own scans that he wasn't hitting hard at all? How dare I lowball, right?
Maybe I should go in the Galan school of thought where one feat that goes against every other feat is the absolute feat. Zoom doesn't hit hard in EVERY appearance? Well, that doesn't count because he hit hard in this ONE appearance.
The equivalent of this would be Hulk saying he's been hit by Thor, but Spider-Man's punches hurt more. Yup, Spider-Man always hits harder than Thor. It's just that he was uh... holding back?
Yes, this is a simple case of me simply not liking something Galan.
As opposed to a blatant pis feat.
But I've asked you before if you could post anything to back it up, because for all my sexy-ness, I'm open minded. If you could have posted anything else to back it up, then maybe it would have just been me not liking it. But you failed. You utterly failed to back it up. And then you danced around the issue with words like "lowballing" "Butthurt" "stop arguing" and "Jizzload".
But apparently I'm just supposed to accept a highballed feat with no problem in an issue where he again, failed to KO a blind Wonder Woman. You can spout lowballing all you want, but you can't deny how questionable that is.
Again, I've apparently low balled from the feats every Zoom fan uses in Zoom threads. Things like him hitting Superman level (blatant pis). Him hitting a billion times in a second (where he failed to cause any damage to Power Girl). The Hal, GL, Batman, Superman fight (where again, he failed to cause damage), and more. And whenever he got tagged during those fights. Hell, one of your favorite feats apparently is when he takes Kal-L's punch. Where he gets hit by a slower, weaker being than Prime.
Because low balling is apparently using the full story. But I forgot you're actually only supposed to take the highs out of those feats and ignore the details.
Zoom can hit a billion times in a second... a billion Superman level punches though!
This is the logic we're supposed to employ as opposed to actually looking at the issues he accomplished these in. It's tiring, and I've seen it time and time again. No one apparently has an issue with it, but it's so crazily dumb it's ridiculous. Where is the line drawn? When is the time that pointing out context isn't seen as lowballing? Why can't I point out that when he did those feats, he did no damage with them? Why is that lowballing?
And again, pointing out his complete and utter lack of stopping power is lowballing. Hilarious
There's also the part where you admit you're lowballing Prime. So there's a mighty difference right there.
And Connor hits way harder than Zoom. Fancy that.
They do not always slap Prime around. Hell, I posted him seemingly to one shot two of them while casually brushing them off in the post right under mine. It took pretty much every Flash in existence to trap Prime in the Speedforce... which he got out. And it took Bart being faster than he's ever gone before.
And with the full Speedforce the Flashes are pretty much just as fast as Zoom. Whereas Bart had the full Speedforce when he cheapshotted Prime at the end of IC and Prime easily got away from him, with only a little bit of blood. Which means he should be able to move.
The mindset however is another issue, but all that means is that he wouldn't stay still and take Zoom's pitter patter punches.
I've never denied Zoom's speed. In fact, I outright stated he would blitz the hell out of Prime initially. However, he's also been tagged a lot by Flash, he's also been tagged a lot by heroes. He can be faster than anyone, but he's never been fast enough to not actually get hit. Which is a major flaw.
I've already explained all of those, and you've failed to do nothing but just say I'm using low feats. He's fast, I never denied that. But his punches are weak, and he gets tagged a lot in comics. That's not lowballing, that's forming an average out of comics.
But anyway, he also took one shot from Diana and got back in the fight. Once he really really got hit, he was done. Him taking one punch from Superman doesn't override his WW fight. As much as you think one single feat beats all other feats. It just doesn't work that way.
Again with the "lowballing". Broken record.
Also, I uh... told you exactly how Prime would win right below that post. Prime will eventually tag him while Zoom ineffectually hits him for a while.
But it's funny again that you start this up, when I'm the one in the first place who asked how Zoom will win. I'm the one who asked when the hell Zoom has ever even finish a durable opponent... a question that you just danced around repeatedly in your ballet shoes and skirt and never once tried to answer it.
So, you're saying all the scans you posted (that unintelligibly had Zoom getting tagged a lot) don't actually matter and Zoom will do better guaranteed? What's the point of trying to find the best Zoom feats you can when you ignore them the second they're questioned?
And apparently we're under the assumption that Zoom wasn't actually going that fast when he was put up against Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Batman? When he blitzed Superman he wasn't actually trying to go that fast? When he didn't want to be caught and shook out of WW's lasso/Hal's chain, he wasn't actually going that fast? I already got out of it that you think he was severely holding back his Superman level punches, but this is just delicious.
It's basically:
"Look how fast Zoom is going!!!"
*point out him getting caught*
"Well... he wasn't going that fast. In the forum you see, he'll be way faster"
Has I not pointed out him getting tagged, I wonder if you would have went into the "Prime will be these guys compared to Zoom" approach. Likely, likely.
I wonder how many times Zoom has to be tagged in the scans you post for you to start considering that maybe he isn't untouchable. Every comic he appears in?
Basically, he appears really fast when he's actually fighting heroes, and someone eventually touches him because he can't put them away super quick. The really fast part? Awesome. The getting touched part? Lowballing PIS.
Yeah, he can. And he's tagged the Flashes twice out of what, 4 fights? The one where he fought full Bart was two punches long and Prime didn't even try to retaliate, and the other one where he fought "The Speedforce itself is amped" Bart, Bart never came anyway close to him. So there's your reason.
Tell me again why Zoom has never put down a durable opponent?
Than anyone "you posted" tagging Zoom? Yes. Faster than Kal-L, a Blind Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman's lasso, Hal, etc. Yes.
If you think you can apply it to your current posts? Then no. Prime isn't faster than the Flashes, but he's fast enough to tag them, as evidenced by the times he uh... tagged them.
Funny thing about most of the scans you posted is that most of the times the Flashes aren't actually fighting him.
The Bart feat is good.
Wally and Jay weren't even hitting him. They were trying to absorb his kinetic energy, and were just spinning around him. And then he grabbed Jay and tripped Wally all while they were dumbfounded that it didn't work. He may be faster than them, but that set almost proves nothing except his kinetic energy can't be sapped.
The blocking feat is good. Although that set once against shows that his stopping power isn't very good. And it would be a terrible idea to use against Prime. Blocking punches that is.
Outside the first part, Flash wasn't even trying to fight Zoom. And Zoom was beating on Flash and failed to put him down. Again shows his lack of stopping power.
He hit Flash while Flash was turning around and then grabbed him from behind. Quick, but he used the element of surprise.
"Nearly stopped"
Superman was a statue because he was just flying around doing Superman stuff. Are we under the impression that Superman's superspeed perceptions would have him still being a statue if he knew there was actually danger going on? We've actually seen Superman be a statue to Flash until he knows bad shit is actually happening, and then, while still being slower, he is somewhat on par.
It's a different story when Superman is actually in a fight, compared to Superman sitting there masturbating.
Always operates... those are humans. Just because he operates that way to humans, that doesn't mean he always operates that way to anyone. Especially considering he was speaking to Linda.
Already answered the Rogues part.
Do you not know how to read? Or are you just purposefully misinterpreting what I said in an attempt to make me look dumb?
In the same post you quoted I stated Prime will get hit a lot. I'm not saying he simply walks up to Zoom and hits him once. I'm saying Zoom will ineffectually wail on Prime for a while, and eventually eat a hit that puts him down. It might take a while, but based on everything you've shown me thus far, it seems likely. Zoom's a lot faster than Prime, but he's not untouchable to even people slower than Prime.
Zoom doesn't hit hard enough to stop him, as evidenced by your complete inability to show him stopping anyone with any sort of decent durability. As evidenced by you thinking I'm lowballing his speed, and attempting to scan blitz me, yet you can't back up his stopping power in the least.
And if Zoom doesn't hit hard enough to stop him, that leaves a long fight on his hands. Logic dictates that the longer it goes on, the sloppier Zoom gets. Logic dictates that Zoom's been hit before by slower people, and Prime can hit Flashes in a full blitz. And logic dictates Zoom's durability isn't enough to withstand a full shot by Prime and stay awake.
Put all that together, and eventually Prime should win.
That's Wally keeping up with Zoom without any amps. That's Zoom actually trying to get as much speed as he can traveling going under lightspeed apparently. And most importantly of all, that is a Wally that needed Bart, Jay, himself and pretty much every other Flash in existence to trap Prime in the speedforce. And they all got tagged against Prime.
And he was able to get away from Bart with the entire Speedforce.
So really, there's no reason Zoom should be untouchable. Especially since we know Prime can travel lightspeed and react to the Wally that kept up with Zoom. And also take out Bart and Jay with a rush.
Probably some other things I could have added, meh... Zoom loses.
Good lord, you put a LOT of words in my mouth with your posts. It's like you already have your mind made up that I've said certain things(even though I never did), and are arguing 'points' which were never once mentioned by me. Ever.
Example:
"Zoom can hit a billion times in a second... a billion Superman level punches though!"
You realize I never once said that, right? So far YOU are the only person who has even brought that up(you've brought it up several times, in fact)... Yet you're acting like I'm the one who's arguing it. Crikey.
Also, your contention that Zoom has a 'glass jaw' is complete BS. Dianna's punches have bloodied up Superman and the like(just like they did to Zoom.) Flash's punches have bloodied up Superman and the like(just like they did to Zoom.) Kal's punches rocked the shit out of Superman(they didn't really affect Zoom.) Etc.
But those facts, just like everything else I've mentioned on Zoom's behalf, probably don't matter, right? We'll go ahead and find a way to low-ball a bit more, right?
You having qualms with those feats doesn't make them any less canon. Also, unless Prime now possesses Wally-speed, I'm not sure why you even bothered posting that scene? Wally=/=Prime.
Anyhow, Wally even mentions the fact that he required an amp just to contend with n00b Zoom the first time: http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums...-Scanned-10.jpg
...So I'm not sure how he was "barely keeping up" with him in that scene..?
Bran makes massive posts to break down and segment. Sometimes when I debate him it's like..."ok what can I combine together and address all
at once or should I just skip this rebuttal altoghther". If you're not careful, you will easily exceed your post character limit..
Just to be clear, as far as the confrontations between Prime and the Flashes go, they aren't as bad as some make it seem. Same with Conner who got his sh!t pushed in...with and without help.
It took like 5 flashes just to team up and bfr Prime. IIRC Jay got one shotted by HV in the process. To go along with countering a team of Flashes with multiple punches, Max even indicated that absorption of the speed force wouldn't be enough to match Prime's speed. Those would be no doubt "good showings" from Bart against Prime despite Prime obviously being able to contend with premier speedsters, even in tandem.
Although I guess not answering anything and poking at minor issues in my post don't count as being on subject... I guess? I mean, actually proving Zoom's stopping power might have been on subject...
Although I guess this is your way to continue the debate without actually addressing anything important.
I'll put my dick in your mouth
That's 15 words I put in your mouth (even though I said that's the logic we're supposed to employ, not that you yourself said it)
But that's exactly what you're (or at least others have) arguing when you say he can hit with Superman level punches, how he always holds back, and how quick he is. Where am I supposed to go from there?
Should I assume you think he can only do one thing at a time? He can only throw one Superman punch at a time. He can only hit like a fly when he throws many punches?
What you're implying when you put it all together is that you know, put it all together.
"Zoom is so fast and can hit so many times. He can also throw Superman level punches.
And Zoom is traveling faster than Flash when Flash hits him. It's unlikely the full effects of speed are felt when both are moving at such high speeds. Maybe if he was standing still.
Though I have my issues with Flash's power too. Also scans of Flash bloodying up Superman?
He hit Zoom once in a series of confusing after images. Like I said, it's almost the same as when WW hit him initially. But when she actually connected with him, he was stunned as shit.
And... are you implying Zoom is anywhere near Superman's durability? I'm not saying he's street level, but he's certainly not WW durability... someone who Prime knocked out when he was weaker. Which makes him pretty much glass against Prime.
Go ahead and ignore every point but figure out a way to argue more.
It doesn't make them less canon, but it brings out questions about the initial speed being displayed in his first appearance. Obviously.
Wally was a little girl the first time around. His next set of appearances with Zoom had him being a lot more confident, and not being so in the dark.
Because Wally's speed alone wasn't enough to take out Prime. Wally's speed wasn't enough to not get hit by Prime. If Wally is only slightly under Zoom, then it stands to contention Zoom won't turn him into a statue.
Because he became a better Flash. Wally went through a lot of shit in 20 issues. He might think he wasn't more powerful, but he obviously was and he was pissed off at Zoom making him watch his wife miscarry so many times.
And this was the same Wally who took on Prime with Bart and Jay, and a bunch of other Flashes.
In what world is 100 thousand miles a second near light speed?
And in what world is shrugging off a push when you're only going slightly slower supposed to be a good feat?
And since this is the only part where you address speed... here is Bizarro grabbing Zoom after barely losing a race to him: http://i43.tinypic.com/2ci7bpl.png
Zoom is utterly unhittable
However, I will say this. Zoom's first appearance in a bubble makes him twice as formidable as he turned out to be. Maybe he would make Prime a literal statue using those appearances, maybe he would. But that would also be Zoom lacking power...
But unfortunately for Zoom, his other appearances go against this without directly contradicting his first appearances (except maybe that Superman statue one, although that has an explanation).
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