Originally posted by h1a8Nah, you decide what the writer means all the time changing the standards from thread to thread.
That's irrelevant. This isn't real life. It's all about what the writer WANTS TO BE TRUE. He basically wanted Superman to do the same thing as Reeve Superman did. Therefore, Cavil Superman did.
Originally posted by h1a8
That's irrelevant. This isn't real life. It's all about what the writer WANTS TO BE TRUE. He basically wanted Superman to do the same thing as Reeve Superman did. Therefore, Cavil Superman did.
The Writer means jack here.
On Screen Feats only. Not what you think the writer imagines in his head.
Originally posted by h1a8
That's irrelevant. This isn't real life. It's all about what the writer WANTS TO BE TRUE. He basically wanted Superman to do the same thing as Reeve Superman did. Therefore, Cavil Superman did.
Prove that was the writer intended for Cavil Superman to have performed the feat.
Since h1 likes to point out his old computation of the Leviathan punch using nothing but his assumed values, I hereby present a corrected version using corrected values (using the calculation methodology he provided of F=MA) using timestamped evidence-based research instead of h1 biased-math.
As a comparison, here is h1's math and evidence-methodology (aka. practically none):
Originally posted by h1a8
I mathematically proved that the leviathan punch was under 200 tons of force. That's assuming the leviathan weighed 1000 tons.[B]For those who are not adept in physics, here you go.
Note: The Leviathan is probably somewhere between 200-500 tons. Let’s just say 1000 tons for the sake of argument. That way, no one should have a problem.How much force does it take to stop a 1000ton object moving at 20m/s in 10 seconds?
Force = change in momentum/ change in time
= (1000ton * 20m/s) /(10s)
= (907185kg * 20m/s) /(10s)
= 1.81e6 N
= 204 tons of forceSo assuming Hulk wasn’t bracing (allowing the concrete to supply the pushing or stopping force) then its a 204 ton feat at the most.
But the reality is that the concrete was supplying the majority of the stopping force as Hulk’s arm was extended through the majority of the feat (he did give a little push here and there though). So the feat is significantly less than 204 tons.
[/B]
NOTE: I am not a physicist so anyone with a correction (except h1 since I don't trust you and you'll just lie, obfuscate or try to muddy the waters whenever you can), feel free to chime in.
I've edited the below quotes of mine to make them a bit more to-the-point rather than include parts where I was reminding h1 why I don't particularly trust his math. Also added further corrections, clarifications and updates to values on the post.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
The sudden deceleration occured exactly 1:17-1:18 wheras the Leviathan was moving at 20 m/s (value provided by h1) prior to it and suddenly slowed to (based on Hulk's starting distance and distance traveled from 1:18-1:28) around 1 m/s (this number will be further corrected below).
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Actually, reviewing the video and running it over and over again, (using the signpost and car as frames of reference @ 1:19-1:20) it looks closer to about 4m/s within the first 2 seconds then drops off to 1m/s @ 1:20 and beyond.Basis: Car is about 5m in length. Hulk started at 1m behind car and street sign was around 1 car length @ 1:18 and ended at around a little less than 2 car lengths @ 1:20 behind the sign. Speed drastically drops off at 1:20 til full stop while the Leviathan's tail gets whipped into the air. This is the low end.
If we use Hulk as the basis (who is around 2.5 meters in height, according to some numbers), the lamp post is about under 3 hulk distance, 2.8 it looks like from the lamp post. Seems to be a discrepancy of about 33% give or take.
Have been trying to get the right velocity of the Leviathan. Funny enough the 20 m/s guesstimatge isn't so far off.
At exactly 0:59, Iron Man was chased by the Leviathan down a street and crossed (what looks like) about 6 car lengths (30m) from 0:59-1:00.
So a range from 20-30 m/s (can actually go higher than 30m/s since the Leviathan looks like it crossed an intersection with a gap larger than 2 car lengths) is as close as I can get it from the video.
So ending velocity of 4-6m/s from 20m/s-30m/s.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Edit. From the top view @ 1:22 it actually looks like 1 (so 4-5m not 6) car's distance is the more accurate measurement based on Hulk's position relative to the street sign.
So breaking it down:
Assumption: Leviathan weighs in at 1000 tons. If you disagree with this weight multiple the below answer by the % you think the actual weight weighs in relation to the assumed weight.
Thus, a computation using extracted evidence-based values covered by time-stamps (see above for details):
Starting speed (0:59-1:00): 30m/s
Time (1:17-1:18): 1 second*
Ending speed (1:19-1:20, 1:22): 5m/s
*-this is a lowball value as punches tend to last a lot shorter than a second, so value below can go much higher depending on how long a punch would last. Someone feel free to provide me with punch-physics/data.
F=MA
=(1000 tons) * (5 m/s-30 m/s)/(1s)
=(907185kg *25m/s)/(1s)
=22,679,625 kgm/s^2
=2,312.68 ton-force
NOTE: Value can go down slightly (percentile) depending on how heavy the Leviathan is and how fast it was going. Value can go up greatly (multiplicative) based on the time a punch manages to transfer its energy and the physics behind it relative to the 1 second I used.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Since h1 likes to point out his old computation of the Leviathan punch using nothing but his assumed values, I hereby present a corrected version using corrected values (using the calculation methodology he provided of F=MA) using timestamped evidence-based research instead of h1 biased-math.As a comparison, here is h1's math and evidence-methodology (aka. practically none):
NOTE: I am not a physicist so anyone with a correction (except h1 since I don't trust you and you'll just lie, obfuscate or try to muddy the waters whenever you can), feel free to chime in.
I've edited the below quotes of mine to make them a bit more to-the-point rather than include parts where I was reminding h1 why I don't particularly trust his math. Also added further corrections, clarifications and updates to values on the post.
So breaking it down:
Assumption: Leviathan weighs in at 1000 tons. If you disagree with this weight multiple the below answer by the % you think the actual weight weighs in relation to the assumed weight.
Thus, a computation using extracted evidence-based values covered by time-stamps (see above for details):
Starting speed (0:59-1:00): 30m/s
Time (1:17-1:18): 1 second*
Ending speed (1:19-1:20, 1:22): 5m/s*-this is a lowball value as punches tend to last a lot shorter than a second, so value below can go much higher depending on how long a punch would last. Someone feel free to provide me with punch-physics/data.
F=MA
=(1000 tons) * (5 m/s-30 m/s)/(1s)
=(907185kg *25m/s)/(1s)
=22,679,625 kgm/s^2
[b]=2,312.68 ton-forceNOTE: Value can go down slightly (percentile) depending on how heavy the Leviathan is and how fast it was going. Value can go up greatly (multiplicative) based on the time a punch manages to transfer its energy and the physics behind it relative to the 1 second I used. [/B]
I believe this is correct.
You can calculate the feat by using both Time and Distance.
I applied the distance variable instead of the Time variable since i consider it a more accurate one.
According to my calculations the feat should range between 2000tons - 2500 tons depending on the distance you use.
The fact that both yours and my calculations both reside arround the same numbers point at the fact that H1 should have made an error somewhere....
Bellow i post my calculations.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
[B] Okay I will show you how it's done H1.First of all you clearly forgot about deceleration which plays an important role here.
Force Formula: F = m * a where Force = mass * acceleration
Now we need to find acceleration therefore we use the formula:
Vf^2 = Vi2 + 2AX where Vf = Final Velocity , Vi= Initial Velocity, A = Acceleration and X = distance
We know that Vf = 0 because the leviathan stopped. Vi= 20m/s and distance = 8m (If you look at the scene, you'll notice that the Leviathan stopped very quickly. At a distance of approx 8m.)
If we manipulate the formula you end up with:
A = [- (Vi)^2]/ [2(X)]
A = [ - (20m/s)^2] / [2(8)]
A = -25m/s2*Note that we have a negative value for Acceleration which translates into deceleration**
Now we substitute into the formula for Force:
F = m * a
F = 907185kg * -25m/s2
F = -22679625 NewtonsThe negative means that you require 22679625 newtons to stop such an object.
22679625 Newtons = 2312678.12 Kg or 2549.29 Tons
Hulk applied 2500 tons of strength in one arm to stop 1000 ton Leviathan moving at 20m/s over 8 meters.
Damn long time i don't do physics 😂 [/B]
Well, we know h1 used Ton-force over 10 seconds. Which is change in momentum with relation to time in tons. And if you multiply the value he presented over the time he provided (10 seconds) you'll get a similar answer (2k tons).
Essentially, (IMO) he deceptively used the 10 second divisor to try and lowball the "feat" hoping no one will notice.
I do feel the "stop distance" methodology would misrepresent what was happening here tho because the factors affecting the Leviathan's stoppage came in 2 instances:
>Initial sudden deceleration during the punch from 1:17-1:18.
>Slower deceleration due to gravity/friction from 1:19 onwards.
Essentially, the punch didn't fully stop the Leviathan on its own, it just greatly decelerated its speed.
Also, I would like to reiterate that a "punch" isn't slow application of energy over time/distance. It is a sudden burst of energy over a very short time. So we need to apply it at point of contact and nothing else.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Well, we know h1 used Ton-force over 10 seconds. Which is change in momentum with relation to time in tons. And if you multiply the value he presented over the time he provided (10 seconds) you'll get a similar answer (2k tons).Essentially, (IMO) he deceptively used the 10 second divisor to try and lowball the "feat" hoping no one will notice.
Aye.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Well, we know h1 used Ton-force over 10 seconds. Which is change in momentum with relation to time in tons. And if you multiply the value he presented over the time he provided (10 seconds) you'll get a similar answer (2k tons).Essentially, (IMO) he deceptively used the 10 second divisor to try and lowball the "feat" hoping no one will notice.
Also we are excluding the fact that the floor/cement bellow Hulk was crumbling.
Should the ground be strong enough, it's possible Hulk would have stopped it quicker.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Did an edit above on why I think the portion of the "feat" where the Leviathan touched the ground should be ignored entirely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYYwayKbs-M&index=3&list=PL2RwxNNlDTeZ4zFljWNn8UOxQbrFgq10J
Check from minute 1:02. Hulk's strength is clear.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Since h1 likes to point out his old computation of the Leviathan punch using nothing but his assumed values, I hereby present a corrected version using corrected values (using the calculation methodology he provided of F=MA) using timestamped evidence-based research instead of h1 biased-math.As a comparison, here is h1's math and evidence-methodology (aka. practically none):
NOTE: I am not a physicist so anyone with a correction (except h1 since I don't trust you and you'll just lie, obfuscate or try to muddy the waters whenever you can), feel free to chime in.
I've edited the below quotes of mine to make them a bit more to-the-point rather than include parts where I was reminding h1 why I don't particularly trust his math. Also added further corrections, clarifications and updates to values on the post.
So breaking it down:
Assumption: Leviathan weighs in at 1000 tons. If you disagree with this weight multiple the below answer by the % you think the actual weight weighs in relation to the assumed weight.
Thus, a computation using extracted evidence-based values covered by time-stamps (see above for details):
Starting speed (0:59-1:00): 30m/s
Time (1:17-1:18): 1 second*
Ending speed (1:19-1:20, 1:22): 5m/s*-this is a lowball value as punches tend to last a lot shorter than a second, so value below can go much higher depending on how long a punch would last. Someone feel free to provide me with punch-physics/data.
F=MA
=(1000 tons) * (5 m/s-30 m/s)/(1s)
=(907185kg *25m/s)/(1s)
=22,679,625 kgm/s^2
[b]=2,312.68 ton-forceNOTE: Value can go down slightly (percentile) depending on how heavy the Leviathan is and how fast it was going. Value can go up greatly (multiplicative) based on the time a punch manages to transfer its energy and the physics behind it relative to the 1 second I used. [/B]
There is a contradiction when using your speed estimate along with the time and distance we observe.
Thus we must rule one of them out.
Speed should be rule out because the speed at the time of impact is an assumption, whereas the time and distance of the stoppage is observed during the scene and can be measured.
Calculations
Time t= 10s, Distance d = 15-20m (NOT 8m), Initial Velocity Vo = Unknown, and Final Velocity Vf = 0 (although Hulk never completely stopped it)
We have the following system of equations
1) Vf = Vo + a*t.
2) d = Vo*t + 1/2a*t^2
I'll use the larger estimate of d since that gives the greatest acceleration and hence greatest force.
Plugging in the values gives
1) 0 = Vo + 10a
2) 20 = 10Vo + 50a
Solving 1) for Vo and substituting into 2) yields a = -0.4m/s^2
1000tons = 910000kg
So the average stopping force is F = 910000*(-0.4)N = 41 tons of force.
Originally posted by h1a8
Distance d = 15-20m (NOT 8m)
Are you ****ing kidding me!? That is not even near 15m!!! 10meters would be a max!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amVfFRNmDE4
Minute 0:53 Hulk hits the Leviathan a bit infront the blue sign. Minute 0:57 Hulk stops moving right infront the white car and a bit behind the blue sign.
That is NOWHERE near 15 m!!!! PLEASE RECONSIDER YOUR WORDS.
Originally posted by h1a8
There is a contradiction when using your speed estimate along with the time and distance we observe.Thus we must rule one of them out.
Speed should be rule out because the speed at the time of impact is an assumption, whereas the time and distance of the stoppage is observed during the scene and can be measured.Calculations
Time t= 10s, Distance d = 15-20m (NOT 8m), Initial Velocity Vo = Unknown, and Final Velocity Vf = 0 (although Hulk never completely stopped it)We have the following system of equations
1) Vf = Vo + a*t.
2) d = Vo*t + 1/2a*t^2I'll use the larger estimate of d since that gives the greatest acceleration and hence greatest force.
Plugging in the values gives
1) 0 = Vo + 10a
2) 20 = 10Vo + 50aSolving 1) for Vo and substituting into 2) yields a = -0.4m/s^2
1000tons = 910000kg
So the average stopping force is F = 910000*(-0.4)N = 41 tons of force.
Furthermore, Hulk stopped moving in minute 0:57!!! Which means he was able to contain the force in 4s in contrast to the 10s you claimed!
Clearly Mr. H1 your calculations are ERRONEOUS.
Originally posted by h1a8
There is a contradiction when using your speed estimate along with the time and distance we observe.Thus we must rule one of them out.
Speed should be rule out because the speed at the time of impact is an assumption, whereas the time and distance of the stoppage is observed during the scene and can be measured.Calculations
Time t= 10s, Distance d = 15-20m (NOT 8m), Initial Velocity Vo = Unknown, and Final Velocity Vf = 0 (although Hulk never completely stopped it)We have the following system of equations
1) Vf = Vo + a*t.
2) d = Vo*t + 1/2a*t^2I'll use the larger estimate of d since that gives the greatest acceleration and hence greatest force.
Plugging in the values gives
1) 0 = Vo + 10a
2) 20 = 10Vo + 50aSolving 1) for Vo and substituting into 2) yields a = -0.4m/s^2
1000tons = 910000kg
So the average stopping force is F = 910000*(-0.4)N = 41 tons of force.
Provide the contradiction on my speed estimation with logic supported via timestamps.
Stopping distance is irrelevant. The punch did not fully stop the Leviathan and we do not calculate past the initial point of contact.
Time is not 10 seconds. This is not a constant application of force. This is a single application of energy within a sudden point of contact only. Do you have any idea what a punch is?
You are just trying to distribute the energy over a long period/distance so that you can diminish it. Obviously.
And btw, your distance is wrong. I have proven it via timestamps that it IS around 8m, nowhere near 15-20. My evidence is there while you just threw around assumptions. But it is irrelevant as we don’t use stopping distance as it has no bearing on this calculation.
It is interesting that you touted your original computation for pages and pages as gospel truth and now that I have disproven it, you try to move to another flawed computation in an attempt to fool people.
No one is fooled.
I challenge you to a BZ. Meet me there and prove the above numbers you presented as correct. Let’s find some judges who are unbiased and familiar with physics as I don’t wish to waste my time explaining to you for 20 pages why the above computation is wrong.
You win, I leave the forums for 6 months. You lose, You leave the forums for 6 months. These forums can do without your dishonesty for a while.
Originally posted by Josh_AlexanderWrong. The leviathan started somewhere at the red car in the previous scene. You see Hulk gets pushed by by about 3m before the next scene starts. Leviathan traveled about 3.5 car lengths. A small car is about 4.5m long.
Are you ****ing kidding me!? That is not even near 15m!!! 10meters would be a max!!!!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amVfFRNmDE4
Minute 0:53 Hulk hits the Leviathan a bit infront the blue sign. Minute 0:57 Hulk stops moving right infront the white car and a bit behind the blue sign.
That is NOWHERE near 15 m!!!! PLEASE RECONSIDER YOUR WORDS.
Basically more than 1 car length in front of the pole and about 2 car lengths behind the pole.
Note : The larger the distance then the greater the force, since 10 seconds is fixed.
Originally posted by h1a8'
Wrong. The leviathan started somewhere at the red car in the previous scene. You see Hulk gets pushed by by about 3m before the next scene starts. Leviathan traveled about 3.5 car lengths. A small car is about 4.5m long.Basically more than 1 car length in front of the pole and about 2 car lengths behind the pole.
Note : The larger the distance then the greater the force, since 10 seconds is fixed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amVfFRNmDE4
Minute 0:58. You have an air view of the scene.
You can clearly see a car on flames. The distance from that car to the pole is 1 car distance MAX! Again, the pole was right behind the red car! 1 car MAX.
2 cars = 8m.
@nibedicus
I calculated the AVERAGE FORCE needed to stop the Leviathan in 10s over that distance.
A car is 4.5m in length. Hulk was pushed back about 3.5 car lengths. I can easily battelzone you on that.
But note:
The greater the distance then the greater the force needed. So a distance of 8m would produce a smaller force which would go against you. So we can use 8m if you like.
The initial punch did almost nothing in stopping the momentum. Hulk just knocked its head down to the ground. So that single application of force is not very impressive.
Originally posted by h1a8
@nibedicus
I calculated the AVERAGE FORCE needed to stop the Leviathan in 10s over that distance.A car is 4.5m in length. Hulk was pushed back about 3.5 car lengths. I can easily battelzone you on that.
But note:
The greater the distance then the greater the force needed. So a distance of 8m would produce a smaller force which would go against you. So we can use 8m if you like.The initial punch did almost nothing in stopping the momentum. Hulk just knocked its head down to the ground. So that single application of force is not very impressive.
Quit weaseling. BZ me on your computation right now. Loser leaves 6 months. Come on.
Fine, I'll BZ you on the distance traveled as shown. No "off-screen travel" BS. The distance Hulk is shown is within below 2 or slightly above. Loser leaves 6 months. You said you could prove it so let's go.