Surfer doesn't have to be permanently frozen to be defeated. According to forum rules, incapacitation of more than 10 minutes or such can be counted as defeat too.
Where in the rules is that? Actually looked for it. Couldn't find it.
Also, I already explained this with my "Flash" analogy a few pages back. Time is relative to the observer. What is 1 second to Juggernaut could be years for the Flash. If we were to use this kind of logic, then any fight with Flash would be an "incapacitation" due to the 10 mins (relative to Flash's perception) have elapsed.
Incapacitation (in my belief) would require that 10 minutes pass between both characters wherein one is rendered completely helpless or at least 10 minutes would have passed to an outside observer.
The danger of allowing this kind of logic is that ANY person can simply say "character X can time stop, thus, he can beat 10000000000x of any other character without even touching the other because he can maintain his "time stop" for about <insert forum approved time here>. I just find that grossly silly and would be a HUGE loophole for the forums in case it is allowed.
Also, it's arguable that a "time stop" would hold Surfer for long as he has his own time senses/manipulation "feats", tho, nowhere as good as WR's.
You just stated that the feat "happened in limbo." You neglected to mention that the only reason WR was 'struggling' in that panel is because he was stopping time across the entire fraggin dimension at the time. Like I said: this perceived deception on your end probably wasn't intentional(given your cool demeanor, I doubt it was) but you have to admit: from my point of view, it looked pretty damn suspicious at first. Apologies if it wasn't.
Oh and fyi, WR doesn't have to stop time indefinitely around Surfer to constitute a forum win-- just long enough for Surfer to be considered 'incapacitated'(which has been defined loosely as: "a reasonable amount of time" by Bada in the past.) If he can halt time across an entire limbo dimension for a whole issue, he can certainly stop time around Surfer alone for a reasonable(key word) amount of time. If need be, I can post more scans of WR stopping time on a large scale(for extended periods of time) to help concrete my case.
Well, I didn't know about the whole "limbo dimension", kinda hard to get that with just 2 pages of said "feat". I DID say (or at least strongly alluded to it) I was getting my info from scans due to not having any comics with WR appearances on hand.
I try to approach things as logically as possible and (outside of h1 or ppl who outright flame me for no reason) I give the people I debate as much respect as possible in order to understand, learn and integrate new debating techniques and logical approaches. Tho, granted, I'm not perfect.
To clarify, I've already stated that I feel like Time Stop is the best strat WR has going for him in this fight. And IF it is viable as a legal forum win, then it's a good chance that this (and any matchup featuring Waverider, Zoom, Odin and Keeper) would be pretty much one sided even against a limitless number of equally-powered opponents. A huge exploitable loophole, IMO.
That is why I dislike the whole "I can stop time thus I can win against any opponent (and any number of said opponent) without even touching them" way of logic. I've always seen as time being relative to the observer and any kind of fight with a time limit needs to have said time limit pass for both characters within their relative perceptions of time not just for one.
Edit. I strongly doubt "incapacitation" is a 10-count, tho. That would be a KO IMO. :P
Last edited by Nibedicus on Jul 7th, 2013 at 05:57 AM
Time-stopping will always be the go-to forum tactic for ANY character capable of doing so(just look at any thread with The Keeper in it, for example.) And normally, I wouldn't try to blanket a character's specific abilities across the board(I'm not fond of no limits fallacies.) However, in the case of WR, his temporal abilities have proven sufficient to manipulate even the likes of ZH Parallax: http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/161...age_26.jpg.html http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/161...age_27.jpg.html
So I feel confident in assuming that beating a herald-level character via time-manip is well within his power. As I mentioned above: if need be, I can also post several additional scans of WR easily stopping time on a large scale for extended periods of time to help solidify my case..?
Yeah, but I think difference would be that the "time stop" ability used in those arguments were just a form of opening up their opponents to a finishing assault, not using it to create a "forum win via technicality". Or at least it should be.
And as I said, if WR had the "showings" that would allow him to put down the Surfer within the span of his time freeze, then I'm perfectly ok with that.
Well, I'm not arguing against WR being able to pull a time stop against the Surfer, made if perfectly clear that this is indeed, a very viable tactic. No arguments there. So I don't think posting wide-area time freezes would be necessary.
My argument is just that I don't see a "time freeze" as a true "incapacitation". And I also feel that, eventually, the Surfer (due to his "feats") should be able to get out of it. Not quickly, but eventually. I see time freezes as more a form of BFR, if anything, tbh (as the frozen character no longer shares the same "chronal" space within the battlefield as the time freezer) and the rule should be "for as long as the BFR'd individual can return to the battlefield within a reasonable amount of time".
Then again, that line of thought has its own flaws as well.
Last edited by Nibedicus on Jul 7th, 2013 at 06:26 AM
If WR's temporal abilities were powerful enough to manipulate ZH Parallax, they would unquestionably be powerful enough to work on Surfer. If WR's temporal abilities were powerful enough to gesturely stop time around Superman: http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/161..._03-09.jpg.html
They would unquestionably be powerful enough to stop time around Surfer.
And yes, stopping time around an opponent literally defines incapacitation, as they cannot do anything once frozen. An utterly immobilized opponent is an utterly incapacitated opponent. Period/end of story. Having said that, I've provided [a LOT of] evidence to prove my case. You've really provided nothing but personal conjecture on Surfer's behalf. There is no reason at all for me to continue this, tbh... It's obviously going nowhere.
Don't know why you would need to mention temporal abilities when I've already agreed multiple times that WR's time freeze would obviously work on the Surfer. Yes, you provided proof of how WR's temporal abilities would work, it's kinda moot as there was never a contention on this point.
The meaning of incapacitation isn't even in contention either. Tho, I will disagree with yours and point out as I see an "incapacitation" in the forums as "rendering someone helpless" and that WR as more like "stalling the fight" than rendering the Surfer helpless in this scenario. But you are welcome to your opinion on what it means, tho.
But what is really in contention is what "defines" an "incapacitation win" or if such a condition would even be applicable in this case.
Firstly, I've checked the rules over. There is no mention of the "10-count" or "10-minute" rule OR an "incapacitation rule" for that matter. If there was, I must have missed it during my multiple perusals of the rules and would like to be pointed to it, if possible. TBH, I've never really heard of the "incapacitation" win until now.
Secondly, the conditions of a "time stop" is rather unique. As I've mentioned multiple times, it is a generally accepted truth that "time is relative to the observer". You can claim that X amount of time has elapsed wherein Waverider has "held the Surfer". But to be more accurate, only X amount of time has elapsed within the perception of WR, to the Surfer and to the affected environment, no time has passed. Which I would then bring back my Flash analogy, does having time pass a certain way within one character's perception (and not the other) mean that the other character loses?
Furthermore, there is also a slight contention on whether such an attack would be able to hold the Surfer for long.
Surfer has demonstrated the ability to "sense thru time" one example is when he mentioned that he can see thru "past, present and future" as shown in Annihilators #3 (I think it was 3) via his cosmic awareness. He has also demonstrated in more than one occasion the ability to travel thru time or warp time/space and has even managed to fight (unhindered and unaffected by the time dilation found within) from within a black hole. It is my contention that it is within the realm of possibility that the Surfer would eventually sense the "time stop" occurring around him and use the PC to disrupt the energies that WR is using against him or at least shield himself from such a tactic.
One thing I do agree on is that this debate has possibly started to become circular in nature. Fact of the matter is, I feel like you would cling to a winning condition that is not found in the main rules, which would mean that it is more of a "forum understanding" than an actual technical rule (if it's there, I really can't find it, but I could be wrong and would like to withdraw this statement in advance if you happen to point it out ) . And if such a "understanding of the rules" were applied in this specific scenario, it would have dire implications for any debate that includes any kind of time stopper or speedster. Something I don't think I could ever agree to in the spirit of how debates/fights here should work (IMO).
Perhaps if we can possibly agree on one thing: That the Surfer can be frozen by WR but WR cannot or would not KO or hurt the Surfer in this state and agree to disagree on the other aspects, then we can move on to other threads?
Last edited by Nibedicus on Jul 8th, 2013 at 12:02 AM
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Jul 7th, 2013 05:00 AM
Galan is a cruel bastard.
