well i dont remember the exact feat of sentry, but based on what i am reading, sentry actually did it before he got help. so basically he could also do it by himself only with more effort. however, superman 1 million couldnt stop or hold the galaxy and admited its something beyond his powers. suddenly someone arrive and the action is acomplished. therefor, there is a base to contribute sentry his feat, but no real base for 1 million
Last edited by Dareangel on Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:29 AM
also, i would like to address this point of people saying yeah 1 million couldnt stop the galaxy but just because its a galaxy its automatically a galactical level feat for him. i dont understand this logic. 1 million clearly not only failed to stop the galaxy, but he wasnt even able to slow it down. not even a little bit. he simply couldnt do anything. how is it different from regular superman trying to stop the galaxy and failing? how is it different from a meta leveler that would try to do anything in his powers to prevent the outcome but failing? i just cant understand since when failing to do something in such fashion is actually a feat. and if an argument will be made that the fact he was trying to match a galaxy with his powers shows us he knows its within the range of his powers, i will have to disagree. if the galaxies collided, the outcome would be a catastrophy. therefor as a hero, he simply threw out everything he had to try and prevent it. even regular sups would try to do the same. doesnt mean he is on that level. usually we see a character being able to stop or lift something but for a brief period of time while strugling and shaking. in this case, he didnt effect the galaxy. that shows he is by no means on that level or close.
Last edited by Dareangel on Feb 17th, 2018 at 11:49 AM
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And Exitar pushing down to Earth actually produce infinitely more power than the comibned power of all heroes on Earth can produce.
Please, remember again that Rogue completely failed to do anything to him.
She wasn't even capable to slow his descent a bit. She did nothing, nada, zero, zilch.
Sentry was capable to carry Exitar's dead body, which is planet-sized, into space at MFTL speed, without effort at all.
If one of both did a relevant action against Exitar, that's Sentry.
About the Hellicarrier, it's like comparing Oranges and Apples.
You should see that if Sentry brutally stopped it, or gave him some acceleration, the crew inside it would suffer the consequences and be rag-dolled thus they will die.
That's not the first time that Sentry do that because Marvel actually care more about the rules of physics and the consequences of the actions of his heroes than DC.
You are comparing two cases not remotely comparable. They are completely different.
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And Exitar is powerful enough not only to dwarf the Fourth Celestial Host but the ONE Watcher and thousands of Watchers...
His tremendous power is far beyond anything the combined power of all heroes of Earth combined...
Sentry, on the other hand, is said to have Virtually unlimited psionic power... That's the same description than the Pre-retcon Beyonder and the Living Tribunal. Literally.
Exitar isn't in the same league than Rogue to make her attempt more than an insignificant, desperate attempt at stopping him.
If you're going to cover your ears and repeat yourself, you should probably have actual proof that you can regress to that state. It's funny how you can find a random scan under a different writer where Sentry couldn't even pick up a ship to try and prove your case but you use absolutely nothing from the actual series to show half of what you're saying.
In the post below this you're randomly showing a completely different Exitar feat to try and piggyback off of, when Exitar was out and out said to be more powerful than everything else. Why is the omnipotent Exitar below Sentry in your opinion? Because Sentry was said to have unlimited power... why did Sentry stop Exitar? Because Rogue didn't stop him on her own. Why did Exitar use his full power? Because he was trying to land. Where is the proof of any of these statements? Uh...
But you can get a completely unrelated feat to apply it while pretending a feat that mirrors it exactly doesn't apply. When you befuddle everything but can instantly come up with proof you think applicable to the helicarrier, you might want to rethink your stance. Where is your proof? Where is your statements? Where is your logic?
The crew was already rag dolled when they were shown smashing into everything. And it WAS suddenly stopped. And Sentry was shown to be struggling. But all that is irrelevant. It's like you don't understand the purpose of scales.
"It wasn't the weight of the world so it doesn't count."
Why though? Do you not understand small test scales? Do you not understand all these examples even you yourself have used? You can't even pretend to think anything over with any sort of critical thinking.
So far it seems like the only reason you think a bench press doesn't apply (besides this dead weight thing) but a hydraulic press does is because humans can lift the weight in a bench press. Which means you still can't fathom that Sentry did not push all of Exitar by himself and the only example you can come up with is literally Sentry pushing Exitar.
"Why didn't Rogue help?"
"Because humans can't push a hydraulic press."
What complete and utterly self serving logic. So circular. You didn't even pretend to explain it in a way that makes it applicable either because you simply do not have any proof besides Exitar stopping when Sentry arrived. Which I have used quite a few real world examples and even a comic example from Sentry with an explanation behind it.
Plus, if you stop a hydraulic press full out, you will likely break it. Guess the hydraulic press is about as relevant as the helicarrier example right?
As for your proof. That panel basically says that ships can't be lifted because they'll snowglobe the people inside. You're using this in retaliation to a ship nosediving at high speeds that showed the passengers smashing into things. And the ship suddenly got stopped too. Or at least the speed slowed quick enough that in the real world it would have killed quite a few people. Also Sentry/Ms Marvel/Wonder Man dropped the ****ing thing on the street that showed a visible effect and smashed up the concrete. How caring they were of the lightbulb people inside.
That in your eyes completely overrides the helicarrier example, yet the helicarrier mirroring the Exitar feat is nothing alike. What.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if Sentry used all his power or none of his power. It doesn't matter if he was scared to break a lightbulb. All that matters is that him pushing it did not stop it, yet Ms Man did. Using your logic, Ms Man did all the work and they even pushed it perfectly as to not kill everyone inside. Way more effective.
They weren't using much power, ok. They were being super careful, ok. They were trying to slow it down, not stop it (even though Sentry is screaming), ok. How does any of this change the fact that Ms Marvel and Wonder Man stopped it instantly? You're trying to add made up context to a feat that changes absolutely nothing of the actual point.
The ship was only shown to have changed momentum once Ms Man came onto the scene. Answer this, and explain in a way that would convince yourself why it doesn't mirror the Exitar example.
Also Marvel doesn't use real world logic better than DC. Neither of them do. You would be incredibly hard pressed to find an example of that outside the Gladiator/Thor fight, and even then I'd wager each one could match the other in that aspect.
Not only that but Bendis uses zero real world logic.
But you danced around the question there.
Did Ms Marvel and Wonder Man do 100 percent of the work in stopping the Helicarrier?
What does this have to do with anything I said at all? And why didn't Exitar just use his ultimate attack of desending into The One?
Also Rogue had Hulk's power. Everyone knows Hulk is the strongest one there is. Infinite, limitless power, etc. But Exitar was said to be omnipotent and the most powerful energy source in existence. That is why no one else was as powerful as him in that comic. Simply trying to piggyback off him doesn't work
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Is that a self-projection commonly known in psychoanalysis ?
It looks like that way.
That's pretty much what your scan about the Helicarrier is, not to mention the massive difference in context and in scale too.
Try again.
The point was to show how powerful Exitar is, which is relevant to the question of how the feat happened.
Your Helicarrier, on the other hand, can be completely disregarded.
I have never said that Sentry is above Exitar or the opposite.
That's a STRAWMAN my good Sir.
Try again.
FACT
AGAIN. FACT.
Exitar don't stop when he is feeling a resistance.
Assuming that he is doing his best to land on Earth is logical, except if you are a fanboy trying to lowball the feat, of course.
Like the Helicarrier ?
Exactly.
Your should try to apply your own advices to yourself.
Yes, that's ****ing irrelevant.
The irony is rich.
You are comparing an Helicarrier to a planet-sized abstract with infinite power pushing down to Earth...
I don't even know why I keep replying to this nonsense, the boredom I guess.
Hilarious.
You should pick your examples better, instead of trying to evaluate my character.
I can guarantee you that could help you form a coherent argument in this debate.
"Small test scales" implies that the same quantity of effort is proportionally reduced so the test simulate the conditions of the effort on a bigger scale.
Please feel free to prove that trying to LAND an helicarrier without killing everyone on board is the same thing that PUSHING UP against a PLANET-SIZED ABSTRACT WITH INFINITE POWER.
You are over-simplificating what I am saying to the point you are making another strawman.
The point, when comparing to an hydraulic press, is to show that action of a sidekick trying to help, whenever he doesn't posses enough strength to make a difference, is completely irrelevant.
Which is the case here, Rogue, with the power of all heroes on Earth, is still an irrelevant insect to Exitar's might.
And none of your examples are still relevant to the case.
They simply don't fit. At all.
If you try to push against an hydraulic press coming down you will be squished like a bug, which was the fate that was waiting for Rogue because he didn't notice her at all and was still pushing down to Earth without being slowed down.
It is not mirroring the feat with Exitar and there is nothing in that paragraph that is worth responding to neither.
Irrelevant.
That's just your opinion here.
That's ****ing irrelevant.
The real question here is:
Has Kal Kent any ****ing feats of strength that place him at the same level as Sentry ? NO, HE DOESN'T.
Your entire post is not worth responding to. I used to accuse Abhi of handwaving away things all the time, but at least Abhi would have a basis with some proof to do so. Maybe an explanation as well. At least what Abhi said did start off with some discussion on said object before hand. Abhi would stimulate a debate either before or after I felt he started handwaving things.
You are not.
If you can actually explain why and where I should respond to your post, I will. But right now, simply saying "That's irrelevant" without even trying to explain why, and basically "no you are" again, without explaining why isn't worth a retort.
I am trying to explain my case, and I can explain why and how everything I say is important. You however, are not. Why are the things I say not worth taking into consideration? "Because it's not!" Oh, ok nevermind.
I could go up to h1 right now, and he would at least try to explain everything he says with made up math, and how powerful that is in relation. Why was Exitar using his entire power there? Because he wanted to land? So why is it not even worth taking into consideration that no one in comics ever has put their max power into a descent? That seems like a pretty pertinent question to me. Why was it never said that Sentry was as powerful as Exitar since he solely stopped him on his own? Why is the only actual explanation on the feat saying that it was a joint effort?
What are you actually presenting my way to try and convince me of the feat? Rogue didn't stop him on his own? Well, here's some real world examples and a comic one. Doesn't count. So what did you actually present to me to prove the argument? Sentry has unlimited power, and Exitar stopped? I can and have addressed that, with the very things you just handwaved away and then repeated yourself to serve your own logic.
So ignoring who is correct, if you looked at this argument without a dog in this race, who is actually providing something to back up their argument? What have you presented, what have you refuted? Explain that, and I will delve into what you feel is important.
I want you to read and think about what I'm saying. Simply trying to mirror my arguments or wave it away don't speak that way. Refusing to post proof doesn't speak that way. Refusing to answer a question multiple times doesn't speak that way.
Debating isn't about closing your ears and putting your thumb up your bum. Debating is about actually refuting things, thinking about it, and maybe raising your own case. When I say something is irrelevant I will explain why. When you say something is irrelevant, you do not. Simply throwing around words without an explanation doesn't refute the point. I thought it was relevant, simply answering me with irrelevant doesn't cause me to self reflect on why it wasn't relevant.
I don't want the last word. I never have. What I want, is for you to know why what I think of what you said was wrong. That is why it's hard for me to read posts and not respond, because I still feel you are wrong, and here is why.
If you are simply going to respond to what I feel is important posts with absolutely zero explanation of why what I said is wrong, you are not actually looking to have a conversation. You are not looking to prove me wrong. What you are doing, is trying to shut me up with a snappy retort. You won because I didn't respond, congratulations. Now what did you actually prove to stop this multiple post debate? Think about that. I want you to blow me off the ****ing map with things that leave me dumbfounded. Unfortunately, that is more first post type of shit, since if you had that evidence, it would have happened.
Here is a recent example:
Elliminist made the ball detonation argument in the Hal Jordan vs Goku thread. And I will fully admit, it made me think. He was wrong in a lot of cases, but he presented something, and he presented it well. And I am still unsure of whether or not when a ball detonates, that it creates an additional damage source. Which is why I never refuted that if you go back and look (though I do feel that the ball initially contains all the damage it needs, but whether the explosion adds additional is untouched material).
Elliminist explained himself. He actually talked about the feat without "here's how it is". He actually tried to sway people's opinions. I think even Galan would admit he made him think. He might disagree with almost everything, but he made him think about it and hesitate.
And I don't think you tried to lead me to a different opinion. I don't think you tried to change my mind. I think you just tried to silence me and hope I'd fall for it. If you can debate everyone for multiple pages, you can apply the effort to try and prove your case. Not just shit out a reply for a replies sake.
The best debate I ever had was against Operator. That's not because it got way too long, it's because both of us were always trying to explain ourselves with a new angle or feats. I'd say something and he'd show why it's wrong, and then repeat. I still think I was right, and maybe if I did read his last response, it might have swayed me. But what happened is we weren't just shitting out responses to pad length. And I fully think you are capable of actually responding to things. Ironically it was about Molecule Man too, who you can only piggyback off of as opposed to raising your own claims.
Now, I don't expect you to respond to this because I know you lack the ability as of this moment. But I do want you to read this. I want you think about this and improve how you present things. Why are things the way they are? Why are you correct and I am wrong? If your answer is paraphrased as "Because you are." then you need to go quite a bit deeper.
Even Carver understands this fundamental concept. Carver will explain. Carver will refute. What Carver lacks however, is an ability to understand well, anything. I'm not trying to insult you either, I just want to avoid these wall debates in the future. I don't want to have to avoid you because of frustration. I want to seek out an actual discussion where I'm not bouncing a tennis ball off a wall. I'd rather walk away feeling dumb than walk away wanting to smash my face off a hammer.
Blow my shitty opinion away, don't just cover your ears and handwave it away.
And that's my rant. Handwave it away if you must. If your response is pretending you provided tons of proof, you would have posted it before hand.
Here are what I deem merits some response. And not "Heh, sounds like you. Gotcha homo!" responses. Though I don't really feel it merits some response, I just think it's the only things you said that you could respond to. Again, I am open to you explaining why every point you made should be responded to.
Though continuing to repeat that Sentry is the most powerful man in existence doesn't help matters. And piggybacking off of Molecule Man to try and prove Sentry is the most powerful man in existence doesn't help. What is he?
However, Sentry is just as powerful as Exitar. Now what does that change in what I said?
Why is the omnipotent Exitar and most powerful energy source in existence only equal to Sentry in your opinion? Why would they say that about Exitar after Sentry stopped him?
Why why why?
You want to accuse everything you don't like as either strawmanning or irrelevant, then how about you stop using red herrings everytime you think you have a point?
How am I the fanboy here? Who am I a fanboy of, Exitar?
I'm a fanboy of what actually happened. I'm not adding in powers and piggybacking of of others to try and paint someone as the best thing since sliced bread. I want the feat to be seen as what the feat actually is. Which is already impressive. What I don't want is for people to ignore all logic and evidence to try and paint it as infinitely more impressive than it already is.
"Sentry just matched all the heroes on Earth."
"No wait, he actually matched Exitar and all the heroes pooled together are an insignificant feeb in comparison"
"He's the most powerful man in existence"
What is the relevance of Exitar's strength? If you can't actually explain why he did the feat, you can't try and paint Exitar as infinite. If you're going to ignore Exitar being omnipotent and the most powerful energy source in existence. If you're going to ignore him being half the plan and a summary saying it was a joint effort. If you're going to completely ignore the fact that no one has ever put all their strength into descending. Exitar's strength is largely irrelevant. We do not know what sort of power he was putting into his feat, nor do we know if he can put more into flying forward.
Yes I know he would be pushing. My entire point that has been ignored and handwaved away is that nobody ever has put all their power into descent. I've spammed it everywhere. You have never actually tackled it. The closest you've come is basically saying he was putting effort into it. Yes, of course he was. That however only syncs up with what I'm saying. I know he was pushing. What I don't believe is that all his ****ing power was directed into going downwards. I don't think he can.
Which is why in this instance, a normal person would actually provide proof that he was. That a statement would apply to Exitar that said they were matching his entire power. Any ****ing thing would exist somewhere for us to say this. It'd be the same shit if someone said Superman wrist curling a planet was his max power. No, it is not. It is not and never has been the most advantageous position. When something occurs out of the norm of how we view max power output, we do not assume it's everything they have with evidence. It's the reason why huge punches in comics aren't drawn as jabs.
Not only that, but the guy has to apply more or different power to destroy the planet. Are we to assume all of Exitar's power is used to land on the planet, and then he just uses a minuscule amount when he destroys the planet? That shit makes no sense. Especially when he's actually shown to be moving in a large force motion when he destroys the planet.
Could Sentry stop Exitar's punch just because he stopped his downwards movement? No? Then maybe you should reexamine the feat.
Did you just say the crew getting ragdolled and smashing into everything and the helicarrier being stopped suddenly is irrelevant? You realize that was in retort to you saying that is exactly what Sentry was trying to avoid, don't you?
This is what I was saying earlier. Why is it irrelevant? Because your headcanon exists that says he was trying to save everyone by not putting in max force? That still doesn't make it irrelevant. The crew smashed around hard. The portrayal is that Sentry was just trying to stop it.
Even if you can prove that Sentry was trying to save everyone by not pushing too hard (which I've asked for proof for), the overall example still stands as relevant and contradictory.
Now, maybe the explanation does exists. I'm not ruling it out. But when you keep saying the explanation like it's a fact, while I ask for proof, and then rule out what I said without providing proof but continuing to repeat yourself...
If you're lost, I asked for proof of what you said. Provide it. Don't sit on your ivory throne and pretend you're Mr Knowledge and everyone else is wrong.
It's not even important to the conversation, but I personally want you to prove Sentry was just trying not to cause massive deceleration (which happened when Ms Marvel stopped it anyway). It is an easy, simple thing to prove. So do it.
Do you still not understand what scale means? Do you not understand what examples are?
I've said multiple times it doesn't matter how much power Sentry put into it. I'm not trying to lowball him. I'm saying it's the exact same thing.
Obviously I'm not trying to compare the power of the two, that's retarded. Even mocking this when you compare it more to a hydraulic press should have overruled this. But you are not thinking logically about it.
Come on. You refuse to actually address half the things, and have an utter refusal to post proof or even explain your points. You have, and will never convince anyone with that attitude. And you know that, because you pm'ed me a debate you had with Sharivan where you were actually refuting points, and posting proof. You have not devolved I think, you are simply clinging to nothing right now in the hopes that I stop.
Don't lecture me when you know for a fact you are not doing all you can to convince me, or even yourself. You can't teach me anything from how you're debating right now, because I've debated against people doing this tactic, lots. It's the reason why H1 is on ignore. It's the reason why I've considered the same here. And it's the reason why Galan and Phildo told me to put you on ignore. Because you will fall victim to shitty debating practices the second you are backed into a corner and can't defend your point.
How did you explain a small scale test and then use a perfect example and try and toss it at me?
The quantity of effort is reduced? So that's like using a lot less power than moving a planet, no? It was proportionally reduced, Sentry could not land the helicarrier on his own, and was having almost no luck until Ms Marvel and Wonder Man came in. You literally just showed why it was the same thing.
They used a fraction of their power to stop a fraction of the weight, and needed help to stop it immediately. Simple, same thing even following your guidelines.
However, to explain it without your guidelines and getting hung up on your refusal to even think they could be similar.
A weight was falling down. A man tried to stop it. He could not stop it in time. 2 people came and stopped it instantly. Everyone contributed.
Now here's the problem. You can not think past the similarities or lack thereof in your case. Which is why I continue asking you about it. If Exitar never existed in canon.
Was everyone providing the power to stop the helicarrier, or did Ms Marvel/Wonder Man do all of the work? Sentry did nothing, and as soon as they put their hands on it, it stopped. It looks like they did all the work, does it not?
Can you answer this? I'm really confused about it. Can you pretend you are actually trying to prove your case. Can you not shut your ears and lalalala me? I feel this is important, what happened there?
I am over simplifying it because that's exactly what you're saying.
I've already shown examples of people doing nothing on their own against a weight that can have some effort on. It visibly looks like they did nothing, but a smart man knows better.
You aren't even using logic here. You're assuming Rogue did absolutely zero percent of the work when that is simply how nothing works. Sentry has never fought Rogue with all the powers of the world. We do not know if he makes her look insignificant. We have nothing to show he is infinitely above her in strength, and this was far and away Sentry's best strength feat. You can't assume she did nothing at all, because you have no evidence. Evidence to the contrary actually.
Even if she did 5 percent of the work, she is still providing effort. She is still pushing.
The fact that we have them saying half, and it being a joint effort proves she was had something to do with him being stopped. It is completely irrefutable. You are using examples that follow nothing except your self serving logic.
The hydraulic press is only relevant because Sentry stopped Exitar. That is the bread and butter. But I've shown and used real world and a comic example to show this is not the case. Things can do nothing on their own on the surface, but in actuality will be providing a large percent. You have not even pretended this could exist, because the hydraulic press, and Sentry stopped Exitar. Do you see where the issue arises?
But really, this is completely overruled by the summary saying it was a joint effort. Which means she was helping. There is no getting around that. All of what I said is only to back that up. You have not proven anything, you are ignoring everything, and are accusing me of being a fanboy? Hilarious.
And what if thousands of people are pushing against the hydraulic press? Is each one nothing pushing? This is the whole concept here. Additional force helps. That's what happens in real life, that's what happens in comics. That's what happened against Exitar.
It was a joint effort as they say.
Come on man. I ****ing called it. How can you accuse me of not reading anything when you pull this shit?
The fact that you can't answer it speaks volumes.
Also, I don't even think I've brought up Superman's name in this thread, nor do I think he wins. Actually, I haven't even thought about it.
What I am doing however, is trying to actually put the feat in order. I'm trying to accurately explain the feat, not downplay it.
And matching every hero on Earth amped by Hulk amps isn't exactly a low feat either. How dare I imply that.
I hate that this merited me grabbing my computer, and I hate that the page is stretched to ****. This is so stupid and a huge waste of time. The only time I've ever been this confident is debating carver, but everytime it just drags me back.
And I think trying to talk sense was really dumb too. Nothing will change. I tried to prove Galan and Phildo wrong and they were right. They are always right.
**** you for laughing at this Darksaint. This is my life dawg
You know, it's rare that I actually have to put people on ignore. I haven't done it with Carver, h1, bluewaterrider.
Realitywarper though? Yes. He actually PMs debates he has with others on other sites....
IOW, his ego simply wants boosting. Prob links other people to how well he's 'owning' you. Used to do the Sharivan thing too....he seems the one guy who really got into his head.
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Feb 17th, 2018 10:31 AM
