I've got some interesting information that you should see, Draco. Magneto used his powers to subtly manipulate the magnetic field to prevent all long-range telepathy on Earth.
A valid point old friend,however it was recently made light how Jonn has been constantly dampening the Keys own telepathic abilities for several years,this includes how he read every mind on the planet,owned spectre,owned Joker and several other Telepathic feats.
The Metal Men have souls if I'm not mistaken and are not mere robots. The Red Tornado is an Air Elemental housed in an android. They are not pure AI robots like Danger was. I believe there is a strong distinction. And while MM's ability to call upon his entire race's telepathic powers is impressive (could you describe it a bit more please? for now, I'll take it at face value)... Xavier's got the astral plane. I think everybody knows about the astral plane.
But everything Draco has posted is certainly impressive. I would like to know the context of his impressive challenge against God's own mind barriers and God's Wrath and his victory over the supposed most powerful psychic being in the universe, H'rommer. That is certainly impressive if he did it personally. Perhaps you might share some scans or someone else could to fill in some context?
Of course, it is curious then how it is that J'onn couldn't undo Ted Kord's mental manipulations of Superman in 'Sacrifice.' J'onn didn't even know what Ted Kord was doing the whole time during Justice League International. It's also curious that he was plainly defeated by Despero in 'Crisis of Conscience,' WHILE Aquaman was helping him. I suppose than, that Despero would beat H'rommer quite handily. Then again... it's also quite curious how Despero seemed to struggle to take over Superman's mind.
So... then that means Ted Kord > Superman > Despero > MM > H'rommer > supposedly over every other psychic being in DC.
That doesn't really make sense to me. Unless it is, that MM's supposed victories over H'rommer and challenges against the mind and Wrath of God were extenuated or have some type of context you're not telling me. I'd like to learn more and a rare thank you to batdude123 for pointing out the psychic interference that Magneto set in place on Earth. I had personally forgotten that.
MM was telepathically in contact with Despero for two issues,and when he and Aquaman combined powers Despero himself said how they were weaker than normal due to absorbing the negative emotions.
Also Despero wasn't struggling that hard.It took him one panel to own Black Canary and he needed both GL and Hawkman to be distracted.Superman was on the brink of failing every time we saw him and Despero,but it was only one panel each time and he was interruptted every attempt,no real resistance feat on Supermans side i'm afraid.
I own 'Crisis of Conscience,' and I do not remember Despero mentioning that either Aquaman OR Martian Manhunter were telepathically weaker because of "absorbing negative emotions." I do remember Despero mentioning that he saw the Justice League weaker emotionally or something to that effect... and that greatly satisfied him.
And the Superman resistance feat is not the main point of mentioning Despero. Because in the end, you see a metahuman like Maxwell Lord hide his actions from Martian Manhunter for all the years they were together in the Justice League International. J'onn was also unable to safely undo the mental manipulations that Maxwell Lord had used on Superman. So then... even taking Superman out of the scale I posted earlier, which isn't something I turly believed and merely posited for illustration's sake: Maxwell Lord and/or Despero > Martian Manhunter > H'rommer > supposedly over all other psychic beings in universe according to Draco... err GL Corps...
And yes, I know I switched Ted Kord's and Maxwell Lord's name in my original post. How interesting that comparison would have been. Again, these posts are directed mainly towards Draco who is comfortable shooting from the hip with feats galore, etc. However, considering just the events from 'Sacrifice' and 'Crisis of Conscience,' I'm going to need some context or clarification to accept all of Draco's assertions. Goodness... I don't even need to to talk about other psychic foes J'onn has had challenges with, like Hector Hammond, Dr. Psycho and Gorilla Grodd. I think Maxwell Lord and Despero are more recent and everybody has read the instances I've listed.
EDIT: Perhaps nvrbeenwthgrl might have something to say with your insinuations that J'onn might have beaten Despero mentally one-on-one when he's already exhausted his wish-fulfillment loop ability.
I don't think Jonn would take Despero 1 on 1,i never said that in my post at all......
Also Jonn never detected Maxwell lords intentions throughout the years because as he has said he never would enter a mind without permission,and as he would never have a reason to look he wouldn't have something to find.
Considering Jonns higher showings against his lower one's,does it really come as a surprise that Jonn would have trouble with Telepaths like that?It's basically a Flash comic,if the hero ever went all out the comic would be two panels.
I own crisis of conscious too and Despero says In the last issue "the negative emotions have left there minds fractured and vulnerable"
So then, you agree that Despero could plainly beat Martian Manhunter. Do you then, have a problem with hypothesizing that Despero would have an easier time penetrating the Overmind, or battling theWrath of God or defeating H'rommer? The whole point of the question is Draco's continued insistence that Martian Manhunter is truly one of the great telepathic minds in the DC universe entire. Considering his average bouts with Dr. Psycho, Gorilla Grodd and Hector Hammond... I find the high-end feats posted a bit hard to swallow. Especially without context. Your thoughts?
Martian Manhunter's respect for the sanctity of the mind is a noble attribute. But if he fails to see the scale of mental manipulation that Maxwell Lord affected upon the Justice League International, he's either gullible or blind. In any case, he felt helpless with Superman's mind tampering. If I am also not mistaken, he could not track down Maxwell Lord after the Justice League discovered he was responsible. These are three distinct and convincing reasons why Maxwell Lord is plainly above Martian Manhunter. Again, the question is posed... could Maxwell Lord penetrate the Overmind, defeat H'rommer, etc more easily then J'onn?
Contrasting higher showings and lower showings can be inappropriate in certain situations. But when you have the strength of one mind against another's, the contrast serves to illustrate inconsistency, scope and perhaps loopholes and plot devices that haven't been fully divulged yet. These so-called low showings against Despero and Maxwell Lord's powers are hardly low showings. But they were very recent and they leave nothing to the imagination. There are no plot devices and they are not tenuous in the least. I don't believe J'onn to be a 3rd rate telepath. That is not the intention of my repeated inquiries. I believe he's 1st class... but in a class of his own??? I'd like to know more before I accept that.
Since J'onn has had troubles with the array of DC criminal telepaths, so no... such showings are not surprising. But don't expect me to ignore them either, ESPECIALLY when they are more recent and leave nothing to circumstance.
And with regards to Despero's last statement, that is much closer to my take of Despero's statement than yours. My interpretation is that Despero was referring to the entire League and how easy it was to turn them against each other, by amplifying and preying on the aggression and resentment the League felt towards each other already. However, I disagree with your interpretation that when fighting J'onn and Aquaman, he stated they were weaker because they "absorbed negative emotions." I disagree that he was referring to J'onn and Aquaman specifically when they assaulted him or that statement being made during their fight at all. It came after. This mistake on your part is plain to see, since the 2v1 fight came before the last issue. Maybe you're trying to say something else?
Gender: Male Location: Training for the Fanboy Olympics
This and when he was Fernus he was mass manipulating citizens to kill the heroes relatives and associates. Also he was manipulating hundreds if not thousands of prisoners and world leaders. Then as Martian Manhunter he was scanning the globe and only failed because Fernus's consciousness deep within him. Oh and considering that the whole thing with Superman being controlled was crap. It had him hitting Flash and easily breaking GL constructs and the entire JLA was jobbing like idiots. MM jobs alot. He's the guy used to make others good. Just by using one or two instances you can't say all that. Xavier was mindraped by Apoc who isn't known for his telepathy. So is Xavier a weaker telepath. and considering the fact that X has mostly always needed the Cerebro to do mass-telepathy i'd say that mostly its Xavier that has overall weaker showings.
__________________
I am creator of all the master of all things BS. Bow before my mighty form!
Last edited by Superherovandal on Mar 6th, 2007 at 09:19 PM
Considering that some of you are pumping up Martian Manhunter as not a 1st class telepath, but in a class of his own, capable of taking on telepathic threats and obstacles of the highest order, I can rightly insist that you address the most recent instances. These are not "low-end eye-brow raising" weak showings. Despero and Maxwell Lord being more powerful is not a SMvFL instance. It's mental prowess vs mental prowess. He was clearly beaten and it made sense. That leads me to believe you're not providing me appropriate context with which to judge his high-showings.
And don't mention Fernus anymore. I'm not mentioning Cassandra Nova or Onslaught, both of whose powers were derived from Xavier's gene sequence and spirit respectively and unleashed in an evil form. Make a "Fernus vs. Onslaught" thread if you like.
Considering I've stated that Xavier would give Manhunter problems, especially if he has access to the Astral Plane and not insinuated that Xavier pwnz J'onn, I'm not sure why you're arguing against it with me. Finally, I believe the distinction with the mass telepathy and Cerebro and Magneto's interference has been sufficiently explained. And for the last time: I'm not using J'onn's low-end feats! To do that would be to bring out Gorilla Grodd, Hector Hammond and Dr. Psycho. So stop getting your feathers ruffled. If I wanted to be pissy about it, you have no idea how far I could reach.
I'd say White Queen. She was instrumental in defeating Cassandra Nova at the height of her power. Although Cassandra Nova got back at her from beyond the grave.
Gender: Male Location: Anti-Forum Elitist. I put Elitist i
Account Restricted
You THink it's a low end feat to be beaten by Gorrilla grodd, hammond or dr. psycho? THey are some of the best offensive TP users in comics. And they have gotten some serious boost in power ala Neron and most recently Dr. Psycho got another boost from the Goddess Circe.
Excellent. I've been waiting for this. There are some among you that understand exactly what nvrbeenwthgrl has just said. They are some of the best tp users. They can give J'onn a run for his money on any day of the week. Then there are also telepaths who downright beat J'onn. Despero and Maxwell Lord among those. Except... what some posters here would have us believe... is that J'onn is in a class all by himself. They ignore his normal showings. Not low-end. Not high-end. His normal, unquestioned, consistent and plausible showings.
And this is the great bane of some KMC threads. In a hotly contested debate, one side shoots out the high-end showings with extenuated circumstances. The other side tries to shoot em down with low-end showings which are laughable. What does everybody ignore? The normal and consistent showings. The showings that make the character who he is. The normal history you have in mind when you think about a character. Whether you agree with this or not, this is the focus of my continued posts.
Because it is happening right here, right now. J'onn is not in a class of his own. But that is what several people are trying to lead the less knowledgeable to believe. He is vulnerable and he has been overpowered. He's confronted obstacles he could not overcome and he has been oblivious to mental manipulation on the largest scale. And these defeats have not come at the hands of cosmos-scale entities. They've come at the hand of the likes of Despero, Maxwell Lord, Dr Psycho, Gorilla Grodd and Hector Hammond. The logical thing to ask now is... is Xavier comparable at all to them? How you answer that question is entirely your opinion. But to ignore the question and the analysis is irresponsible debating.
EDIT: It was not my intent to trap you, nvrbeenwthgrl. But it was my full intention to get a DC-knowledgable poster to point out what I've been saying the whole time: Losses to Despero and Maxwell Lord are not low-end showings... which some people were characterizing them as. I was trying to show J'onn's normal and unextenuated showings and have everyone reflect more on that than obsess over high-end showings with no context. But they weren't hearing it. I needed someone like you to highlight the point I've been trying to make the entire time.
Gender: Male Location: Training for the Fanboy Olympics
Maxwell Lord isn't better than MM. He's a low-end telepath. It took him years to manipulate Supes. MM has on multiple occasions easily controlled Supes. That alone shows his superiority to Lord. and being less than Despero and Hammond is nothing to show weakness. Hammond has manipulated many planets at once with ease. MM is normally shown as a very high-end telepath. He's shown to have high skills. Yes he has telepaths in his range or better but to say he isn't very high telepathically would be stupid. The whole Sacrifice storyline was a Supes wankfest and like i've said before Max took years to control Supes whilst MM has consistently shown the ability to easily control Supes. That shows his superiority to MM. MM has jobbed sometimes in order to make that story last longer or be longer. That storyline was one such occasion.
__________________
I am creator of all the master of all things BS. Bow before my mighty form!
Last edited by Superherovandal on Mar 7th, 2007 at 03:27 AM
It wasn't just J'onn's inability to undo or even in the most minute way help Superman's mind that makes Maxwell Lord superior. It is also J'onn's complete obliviousness to Maxwell Lord's mental tampering with the entire Justice League International during their years together. It is also J'onns inability to find Maxwell Lord telepathically. That's three distinct reasons. And your reliance on, "Well J'onn jobbed, so it doesn't count." is the second oldest excuse in the KMC Handbook. This didn't just happen in some inconsequential storyline, it happened in one of the most important storylines that would define the DCU from there on in. You want to ignore 'Prelude to Infinite Crisis,' 'Sacrifice,' 'The Omac Project' and ultimately a major part of 'Infinite Crisis' itself because you think it's jobbing and/or PIS? That is, ultimately your opinion. You know what it is not? It is not good debating.
EDIT: Do you see this guys? Do you see it, nvrbeenwthagrl? I have to defend the veracity of Maxwell Lord's telepathy because someone is willing to set it aside as a low showing because they think it is jobbing. That's an argument a f*cking Marvel fanboy would make. This is EXACTLY what I'm arguing against. And apparently, I'm on the other side! This is coming from an apparent DC fan! It is a weak attempt to cast aside J'onn J'onzz, the character... and try to showcase the "ub3r-class-all-his-own" Martian "OMGWTFBBQ" Manhunter.
KMC Community Forums
Mar 6th, 2007 02:34 AM
THey are some of the best offensive TP users in comics. And they have gotten some serious boost in power ala Neron and most recently Dr. Psycho got another boost from the Goddess Circe.
