1. Snowblinded Rand but against a Creed without skills or a healing factor.
2. Rand wins in a dark room playing possum.
3. Rand runs into Sabretooth in a hallway/room and gets launched into a book case.
4. Sabretooth and Rand have a fight in a sewer tunnel where Rand is getting the worse of the encounter until *enter plot device*.
5. Rand tags Creed with a chi amped punch (/Iron Fist?) and Creed brushes it off.
6. Rand runs up on Axis Creed and they start to bar brawl. Creed isn't clawing away but Rand *is* using chi amped Iron Fist attacks, and there's no real defined winner here; Both go on to fight multiple opponents in the same evening but Sabretooth demonstrates a significant healing feat while defeating a mystic martial arts opponent.
Of 4 fights Rand looked better twice and looked worse twice. The two times he looked better are older/outdated material, and, before Creed had an established history, power set, or skill set as opposed to Rand who was fully developed as a character with an established power set.
The two fights Rand didn't look as great are more recent, of which the most recent featured a Sabretooth who was instinctually handicapped on top of nerfing his own best offensive features and still demonstrated an elevated degree of damage soak without issue.
In between the older and newer fights, there was featured a random quick encounter where Rand could not stop Creed from escape or defend himself from being launched into a book case and another encounter where a handicapped Creed brushed off a chi amped strike immediately following being electrocuted by Constrictor and also zapped by a neuro inhibitor collar immediately before that... Again, demonstrating elevated damage soak far beyond that of his first appearance.
Sabretooth has been more defined in power set and as a character. Sabretooth has a healing factor now, and he did not in the comics where Iron Fist defeated him. Sabretooth has considerable super strength now, and he did not in the comics where Iron Fist defeated him. Sabretooth has significant fighting skill accounted into his character now (often gauged in the same tier as Rand himself going by various Marvel guides and grids), and he did not when Iron Fist defeated him. Sabretooth has been written has a character that often fights with brains and tactics now, and he was not when Iron Fist defeated him. The more current Sabretooth is often depicted as having an Adamantium skeleton, and he was not when Iron Fist defeated him...
In the last two encounters, non chi amped strikes have proven to be ineffectual on Sabretooth.
In the last three encounters, chi amped strikes have proven to be rather impotent on Sabretooth.
In the last 4 encounters, Rand did not defeat or put down Sabretooth.
Why would the events of "Iron Fist" #14 have any significant weight on the outcome of a hypothetical encounter between the two developed characters now, despite the fact that more recent encounters don't support this hypothesis? What about "Iron fist" #14 is of value compared to a modern version of the Sabretooth character when even Creed's claw strikes have more effect now than what was demonstrated in that comic?
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
What does this have to do with Wolverine?...
Just like what "Iron Fist" #14 has to do with this thread; Nothing.
"Did I ever say it was better to do so and ignore everything else?"
No, you said: ""Wolverithmetics still alive, I see.""
And stated this when the factual and fundamental variance to Sabretooth's power-set between his first appearanc(es) and his later incarnations was mentioned, seemingly demonstrating that you *feel* like there was some nefarious purpose in bringing up the contextual differences everyone can see plain as day, therefore making it also seem like you arbitrarily dismissed said context because of that feeling perhaps. *shrug*
Then you said...
"That first fight does have probative value."
In your opinion? Great. Of what???
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Aug 10th, 2022 at 09:59 PM
... to make sure that feats of Wolverine's supporting gallery can be twisted/excused for the purposes of reverse-projecting onto Wolverine himself and make him unbeatable.
So more trolling.
You don't actually have an answer to the simple questions asked? You'd rather make this about Wolverine, for some reason, and, a lot. In other words, Stilt saw you comin' by a country mile. Got it.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
I'm more amused by the fact that no one brought Wolverine into this bumped up thread in context to the matchup or for measurement until *you* when you invoked the X-Men as an analogue.
So you bringing up Wolvermath, good. But...
Other people bring up context, bad, because Wolvermath.
lol okay.
"Not much more to it."
Which Stilt then already addressed: "Which is fine, as nobody here has ever tried to argue that."
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Aug 10th, 2022 at 10:39 PM
Please what?...
... Noting that Sabretooth didn't have a healing factor in his first appearance when he didn't... =/= Arguing he wasn't a mutant til the 90's; It's not difficult.
There is nothing abstract or theoretical about it either. There *is* "physical, concrete evidence" to cite and demonstrate.
Sabretooth, in his chronological publications, didn't have a healing factor even mentioned about until "X-Factor" 10 published in Nov of 86... One month after the Black Cat battle where he clearly didn't have a healing factor, but also 9 years since his first appearance, and 6 years since he'd last lost to Iron Fist...
How is that inconsequential when we see he can instantly recover from optic blasts to the back of the head in November of 86 and multiple stab wounds in Jan of 87 but a broken rib or two takes him out in 81? Make that make sense.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Btw (for other members that might care), I've run into a comics fan who made the argument that the healing factorless Sabretooth was potentially a Sinister clone as Sinister's Creed clones consistently didn't have properly working healing factors because it was a difficult ability for him to replicate at the time. Headcanon, but an interesting "theory" nonetheless and at least would make sense of the events as they were published.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
So long as we ignore the vast majority of his next several chronological appearances during the 1970s and 1980s where his character is elaborated/defined and he fights foes like Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel, X-Factor, X-Men, and Wolverine. Y'know, appearances that show Creed operated on a level that is comparable to what he subsequently showed.
"Definitely not Wolverithmetics:"
=/= Literally has zero to do with Wolverine and everything to do with Sabretooth.... I get you think you're being clever or cute or something but It's truly amazing how you can't keep Wolverine's name out of your proverbial mouth for longer than 5 seconds. Enough with the trolling.
"So long as we ignore the vast majority of his next several chronological appearances during the 1970s and 1980s"
There isn't even a "vast" amount of appearances to pull from. It's literally 6 comics that he appears in before he is mentioned as having a healing factor. Sabretooth's "next appearances" after Iron Fist up 'til then are relegated to 4 books, of which 2 explicitly demonstrate that Creed did not have a healing factor and 1 strongly suggests the same.
"During the 1970's and 1980's" *up to* November of 86 are worth ignoring on the basis of lack of healing factor alone, but no one *is* ignoring those appearances, only offering context on why they hold so little weight in a conversation where Sabretooth has another 40 years of history to pull from including retcons, like having a healing factor. (And, we know the healing factor matters to this era of Creed because it was demonstrated that Rogue could one shot a "Mutant Massacre" Sabre-clone to the shock of onlooking X-Men specifically because he didn't have one.)
"where his character is elaborated/defined"
Uh, what? If you define Creed through the 6 books he appears in before being written with a healing factor you would be left to assume he doesn't have one.
You would assume he has zero fighting skill, zero brains for cqc strategy, and maybe *some* training as an assassin as a "student" of Foreigner, so moderate experience and a relatively young age.
You would assume his bones can't cut through metal, and that he'd have somewhat enhanced to superhuman durability (and maybe slightly enhanced strength) but also relatively little damage soak to speak of outside of taking 1 or 2 superhuman strikes before getting dropped.
Oh right, and that he runs around the city with a sack on his head and mittens on his hands, for, some reason. This isn't the defined character of Sabretooth; That is laughable.
The only things that were moderately properly defined about Creed (as he would become established) here was that he has some sort of blood lust, sharp claws, enhanced senses to some degree, and speed... Great, but that still isn't all of him.
"and he fights foes like Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel, X-Factor, X-Men, and Wolverine. "
He fought Luke. Sure. And his fight with Luke is a single outlier of high end performance in terms of durability, and possibly or grappling compared to "the vast majority" of his other 6 appearances, and it still isn't anything to write home about.
Ms. Marvel? No.. His Ms. Marvel appearance wasn't published until the summer of 92, and, in the "Sabretooth Classics" reprinted version of the character chronology, it's among the last of the 4 books printed, not the first, and Claremont didn't touch Sabretooth again until he was working on Uncanny around the 200's 8 or 9 years later.
X-Factor? You mean *after* it was established Creed had a healing factor which no one is taking up issue with?
X-Men and Wolverine? In 86 *after* he was established to have a healing factor which no is taking up issue with... And there you go invoking Wolvermath again. O O
What about this are you not getting?
"Y'know, appearances that show Creed operated on a level that is comparable to what he subsequently showed."
Except, y'know, he didn't.
In the 6 issues leading up to having a healing factor, aside from a potential Luke Cage outlier, what are you talking about?
He "subsequently showed* he had a healing factor... He didn't have one in the Iron Fist fights.
He "subsequently" showed he can rend through metal with his claws and teeth no problem; He couldn't in his 6th appearance.
He "subsequently" demonstrated he actually has fighting skill and over 100 years of experience, but he didn't have any of that going for him in his first 6 appearances.
He "subsequently" showed he can keep coming back from tons of attacks even from class 60+ opponents, internal damage and optic blasts to the back of the head, but in his 4th appearance, broken ribs severely effected him and he couldn't heal shallow cuts between his 5th and 6th appearance... So again... What. Are. You. Taking. About???
You can keep spouting the same thing over and over again; That doesn't mean it has value.
So back to it... Regarding the inclusion of Creed's healing factor, how is that inconsequential when we see he can instantly recover from optic blasts to the back of the head in November of 86 and multiple stab wounds in Jan of 87 but a broken rib or two takes him out in 81? Make that make sense (so far, you've done the opposite of making it make sense, keep trying).
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Aug 11th, 2022 at 01:05 AM
Maybe re-read this thread and see whether it this myth has nothing to do with Wolverine: https://www.killermovies.com/forums...mp;pagenumber=1 No yeah, makes sense for someone with no healing factor to fight Misty Knight, Luke Cage, Ms. Marvel toe-to-toe, etc. You're smart enough to know that beginning your argument by assuming your conclusion is no way to constructively discuss this. That's not even Wolverithmetics. That's just you twisting the narrative. Bruh, how do you ignore that the Ms. Marvel fight was originally plotted/drawn and supposed to be published as Ms. Marvel #24 in 1979 if it weren't for cancellation?
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Jul 15th, 2022 02:47 AM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
