No im relaying whats stated in the comics and ive listed comic book issues as evidence. On top of that ive listed definitions for all the phrases and explanations of the symbology used in the comics. Simple as.
ok u want comic book references ?!!!!!!!!! ILL GIVE U A ****IN COMIC BOOK REFERENCE, THE BIGGEST AND MOST AUTHENTIC ONE OF EM ALL, THE ACTUAL CONVERSATIO BETWEEN PHEONIX AND JEAN GREY ON THE SHUTTLE WHERE THE PHEONIX BECAME PART OF JEAN GREY, YES IT IS A DIFFERENT ENTITY FROM THE BEGINNIG, HERE IT IS, maybe itll enlighten u n al the blind people here on some facts.
All that is...I am.
I was born with the first fire, and shall remain until the last celestial spark is extinguished.
Nothing that lives is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children, and nothing is more cherished than those which have in turn spawned life. High above the third orb, called the Earth, a construct tumbles through the dark, while another smaller vehicle plunges recklessly towards its homeworld, fleeing the wild energies of a solar flare surging invisibly outwards from the sun.
There are noble souls within, and doomed as well. Among them, the reason for my presence.
[The Phoenix approaches the shuttle]
....
The child's will far outstrips her strength. She knows this...and the beginnings of fear as well. Flesh withers under the savage onslaught. Yet her spirit soars--higher, more fiercely defiant, than ever.
...
Be not afraid. No harm is meant.
"Voice--like music in my mind--who, what, are you?!?"
The sum and substance of life and hope and dreams.
All that is, is known to me. I have known you from the moment of your conception--as I have known the universe.
You cried out for aid. I heard. I came.
"This is crazy. I'M crazy."
No more than any finite being confronting the infinite. Your form, child, is so fragile. How can you possibly endure?
"I must!"
To save your friends. And, most especially--
"That image, cast from my soul. Oh, my love, I've never seen you look so beautiful. The essence of my hopes and dreams--all that almost was--will never be. My innermost secrets--yearnings--how could you possibly know--?!"
My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories.
"Oh great. You mean you're a figment of my imagination?"
You jest, yet what is imagination, save the ability to conceive of that which is beyond reality. You are human. I am of creation.
[The Phoenix begins to take a female human shape.]
A shell, nothing more. And only for the present. Your own physicality cannot easily be restored. For its own protection, your mind refuses to acknowledge the full extent of your injuries. Your existence is far closer to transition than you realize.
"Not dying then, already dead. Hanging on--barely--by force of will alone... What do you want of me?"
You called, child of man. And I, mother of the stars, answered. It is for you to name your heart's desire.
"And I'll get my wish, just like that. Why do I suspect that's too good to be true?"
All things have their price.
"What's mine?"
Does that matter?
"Yes!"
I am glad. Take my hands, child, that we two may become one. Your humanity, my power--bonded by passion, tempered by love. The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself.
Be warned--the fire I offer can burn as well as warm. Destroy as well as heal. And it always consumes. The glory I offer is transcendent; likewise, the danger and the flame, once taken, can never be extinguished.
"The power--it's too much--beyond comprehension. Suppose I can't handle--I'm not worthy. How can I accept?!"
You know that answer already, else you would not have summoned me.
"I'm afraid."
With good reason.
Death is the certainty--the end to all burdens, all responsibilities, life the greatest of unknowns. Each day, every moment, contains risk. Safety--and perhaps peace--can be found only in the grave. I may be salvation--or damnation--or both. Which now is your heart's desire?
"To save my friends, I'd dance with the devil himself! And I want to live."
All things are possible, child. And you may yet dance with the devil without...and the far more terrible one within...
I'm simply putting it in Layman's terms because not everyone can follow what you are saying.
All of that is well in good GS, but it doesn't change the fact that:
TOAA is the Owner and Creator of the Tree.
LT is the Ground's Keeper and Caretaker of the Tree.
Phoenix is the sap TOAA uses to give the tree life, the fire he uses to burn the tree down and refertilize the soil, and the seeds he uses to grow it back again.
yes i do, but i also realize that you shouldnt just say stupid stuff basing ur entire theory on one thing and completely overlooking the other, meaning i DONT KNOW HOW THE HELL galactic storm took that one setence where jean was SAID TO be the force of CREATION{which is a wide word with many interpretations specially since this is the marvel universe where words like this and infinity and eternity are loosely tossed about} and interpreted that as sayin that pheonix is an aspect of THE ONE ABOVE ALL, and has greater power than the heart of the universe and IS ACTUALLY THE CREATER OF THE ENTIRE MULTIVERSE, with nuthing really to back this very specific claim, all im sayin is that IF u can just take that one stupid sentence and interpret it like that {n try n insult me n my intelligence in previous threads} then i can just as well take this AUTHENTIC piece of evidence and interpret it the opposite way{even though i havent done that yet} so u should just think before tryin to put sum1 down for no reason, n poeple here just cant accept the fact that MAYBE they can be wrong.
I see what you're saying leon. I believe there was a scan provided of the "Tree" (not an actual tree, but Phoenix with all of the abstracts branching off from her), but it did not say definitively that Phoenix was the the essence of existence. Now, other abstracts (Death, Eternity, etc.) have eluded to that end, and then the End Song arc kind of backed that up, but I think to put this to rest someone needs to provide a scan that clearly states Phoenix's position.
By the way, I think she'd take Galactus, but not easily if he's fully powered and nourished (being on topic for a change). He could in theory eat away at her and fight her indefinitely because she is his power source (life energy) and she has limitless power, so he has limitless power to siphon from her and redirect at her. Kind of like what Quasar attempted to do to Surfer (view that thread), but effectively.
I agree to a certain extent that Galactus could leech off the Phoenix, but I'm not crazy about using this means in a fight just as I do not favor the "time travel back and kill off the other character as a baby tactic. If using that leeching ability, does this mean Meggan can be a worthy contestant against Phoenix too? (she can leech of Phoenix as she's done in the past).
You silly boy. You have just made quite apparent your great misunderstanding and higlighted the fact that a lot of comic book writers work has hidden meaning and shouldnt be taken literally or on face value otherwise you get completely the wrong end of the stick, just like you have. What you thought was your great piece of evidence showing how phoenix is a seprate entity and not jean is actually a piece from the comics showing the opposite and highlighting the fact that jean and phoenix are one and the same:
"All that is...I am." and "Nothing that lives is not touched by a part of me. The stars are my children"
These are quotes from phoenix supporting the fact that she is the primal force of creation (as also stated by the watcher) whose essence runs through everything and who created the multiverse.
"My consciousness, my form and its ability to communicate on this plane of existence derive directly from you. They provide an...awareness of your dominant emotions and memories."
As shown again in previous years by New Xmen and further cemented more recently by Endsong, all appearances of the phoenix are manifestions created by Jean, they are just jeans phoenix essence. A shard of her very self which takes her form.
For further evidence of this you need only look at excalibur 64. The implication is that the “phoenix force” that wandered around the MU bonding with Madelyne and Rachel is really always the part carved from the spirit of Jean Grey.This seems also to be the interpretation of Greg Pak in Endsong 5.
In Excalibur 64.When the Phoenix awakens Rachel in space to bid her farewell,Rachel asks her to show herself,and she appears in the Jean Grey “Gold Woman” form: “Mother...You look like my mother...like Jean.Jean Grey”.
"The ultimate force, at last given means to express itself."
Yet more quotes supporting my previous arguments that Phoenix is a vessel for the essence of God. Her very title Phoenix of the White CROWN and the fact that Jean calls herself TIPHERETH in the comics provide more evidence supporting my argument about TOAA connection. With both terms being the names of sephiroth (vessels for Gods essence, made to carry out his work in our plane of existence), both being found on the kabbalah mystic tree of life which jean calls herself " the heart and soul of" in Uncanny xmen 135 and with the journey between the crown(white hot room) and tiphereth(jean) being known in kaballah as the 'flight of the phoenix'
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Last edited by GalacticStorm on Jun 17th, 2005 at 02:45 AM
Here you have a hypocrite boys and girls. It goes around saying things like "pm me back when you can debate like an ADULT." Then it turns around and acts childish itself.
Watch illadelph12, he might start calling you a Phoenix hater or something to that affect.
Dogg, look, I understand what Phoenix is supposed to be. They're trying to say Jean became one with the "Holy Spirit" (to get Biblical). In the Bible, the HS is the tool God used to create all things, and the essence that is in all living things.
I get that part.
It doesn't change the fact that LT, who isn't part of any Biblical or Kabbalistic doctrine, exists in the MU, and his purpose, designated by the TOAA itself, is to be the caretaker of creation.
Phoenix was used to create it.
LT was created to look after it.
Whether or not the TOAA used the Phoenix to create LT is unknown, but LT's commissioned duty is known, regardless of his origins.
The Phoenix Force is a tool used by TOAA to bring about creation or destroy it and rebuild, just as the Holy Spirit is used by God, to simplify what you are trying to say.
LT safeguards the process.
Phoenix is the workers and machines in the factory, LT's the security guard and security system, TOAA is the CEO.
Thats where you're wrong Ill. Especially with regard to this part:
" It doesn't change the fact that LT, who isn't part of any Biblical or Kabbalistic doctrine, exists in the MU, and his purpose, designated by the TOAA itself, is to be the caretaker of creation."
The living tribunal is actually based on kaballah principles as well it seems. In kabaalah theres an Archangel called Metatron he is the highest Archangel more esteemed by God than even Gabriel and Michael. Metatron upon his evolution became a golden being with multiple heads each representing different concepts. Metatron resided on a throne as Gods highest host. However whereas Metatron was a host for God Phoenix as a sephiroth as actually stated in the comics is an avatar a direct incarnation of Gods presence within creation as opposed to being just imbued with power and purpose by God. This would place LT above any Phoenix host such as Rachel, Giraud etc, but not above Jean who actually is Phoenix and it is her Phoenix essence which gives power to the other Phoenix hosts. That is why she is White Phoenix of The Crown.
Did you know that Dc's presence is also of kaballic principles it seems. The Divine name of Keter(the Crown) is Eheieh (I Am) which is rendered as Pure Being,or PRESENCE. So it seems that if indeed LT is supposed to be Marvels Metatron then in Dc Vs Marvel arguments LT has a higher standing than Michael with Dc's Presence stemming from kaballah. Metatron was the first human being to complete the human path of evolution.As a result he ascended into the highest of the seventh heavens, where he became Metatron, chief of all the archangels.
Because of his love for humanity he chose to remain with and teach those below him in evolution rather than rise and reunite totally with the Godhead. He will, therefore, remain with this world to help it until all human souls reach enlightenment.He seats on the Throne,and acts as ruler and judge of the Universe for the Unknowable God.
So this last bit especially goes some way into explaining why LT is an obstacle for new cosmics to get over in their quest for power while phoenix is not. LT is a judge of the multiverse and remains within it protecting it in the name of TOAA until humanity reaches its final stage of evolution as talked about in depth in Xmen Forever. At which point they will all reach the white hot room and creation will end and then begin anew courtesy of phoenix. Phoenix is a force not a being to overcome. Its task is to make creation, maintain it until the point when humanity reaches its ultimate evolution and then end it, before making it again. Its the primal force of creation which keeps this cyclical process going on forever as willed by TOAA. This is all talked about in Xmen Forever. As you can see kaballic principles, symbology and parallels are drawn in Marvel comics and not just for phoenix but LT it seems as well.
DC's presence by name is linked to kaballah and the fact that shard of phoenix in that crossover was made from the energies of the source which is an aspect of the Presence further supports this. Kaballah principles run through both companies it seems. You just need to be well read on the matter to see just how much that is the case.
Hmm, I'd have to say, that does make sense (maybe not the whole 'Metatron being Enoch that transcended' part in LT's case, but the rest). I can't really counter that, especially based on the themes in the books.
But would that really make the Phoenix superior? Metatron is like the King/Highest of the Angels (or at least the 7th Heaven Archangel, which would equal that).
Only being higher is God.
I guess if The Phoenix Force is truly the embodiment of God's power of creation, it would be.
PF would only be surperior if we drew speculations. Marvel based LT on Metatron? Comics either invent their own character or base it on already existing characters.
LT is based off of Metatron...
Then I guess:
Adam Warlock <= Jesus based
Mephisto <= Mephistopholes based Or even Satan based
TOAA <= GOD based
Presence <= GOD based
High Evolutionary <= GOD based
Apocalypse <= Charles Darwin based
Shuma Gorth <= Cthuhul based
Darth Vader <= Dr. Doom based (hey look, someone's copying Marvel in turn)
That's if it does. But we'd have to draw speculation that Primal Force Of Creation = TOAA. LT = Metatron. Fact is Marvel doesn't want to get religious. And just because a character is based off of another existing idea, does that mean it'll operate the same way? Ideas have to come from somewhere; it still doesn't mean the clone will operate or rank in its own universe the same way as the original.
No where has Marvel said LT is Metatron, or Warlock is Jesus, or Shuma Gorath is Cthuthul. They just copied a good ideal; it doesn't mean their character ranks or operates the same way as the original.
LT is said to second to TOAA. He's referred to as the cosmic judge of the multiverse. He's never referred to as Metatron. And I've seen LT in a pale skin color in his early appearances; he's not always golden - he's sometimes yellow in color.
Heck Warlock is closer to being Jesus than LT is to being Metatron.
Last edited by Beyonder on Jun 18th, 2005 at 03:48 AM
I fully agree with Beyonder, especially on the LT and Metatron bit. LT is not equivalent to Metatron. Sorry, but he's not just him. As I said, on the "Lucifer and Michael vs these 3" thread. LT judges all of creation, while Metatron judges not only all of creation but also judges heaven.
Serously GalacticStorm, you cant incorporate beliefs from our real world into the comics world, because the comics does NOT entirely follow it. So what if the Phoenix is link to the Kaballah belief? So what if LT and Metatron are judges? I mean DC Comics is a religious-based comics but they do NOT entirely follow whats in the Bible, much less other beliefs. In the "Lucifer vs Phoenix Force thread" and "What is the Source" thread, I have listed the differences between the religious beliefs of our real world to the religious beliefs in the Comics world
I can list it here if you want.
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