"we cant agree because you are horribly wrong." Such an ego. But your right it all makes sense if we look at it your way. A well trained mortal is more skilled than a god with centuries experience in war. You think Juggs is an easy feat or something? He's a good fighter and even without his shields not taken down easily. To Thor he is nothing. You right about Creel though, his skill isnt very impressive. Regardless of this plz show me a scan that tops Thor being able to take down the god who shamed the Disir, or something more impressive than Thor being able to Stalemate Zeus for months. No way Thor couldve matched Zeus power for power, he had to use skill.
Good for Matt's dad. But unless he was drunk during the fight or already so intoxicated his liver was failing as he was fighting and his brain had been damaged from the excess of alcohol I see no relevancy at pointing out that he was a drunk. So's Hercules and he seems to do okay with himself. Creel was given the power to Hurt Thor. He did not have this power without gaining a high amount of invulnerability. That is why the fight lasted as long as it did. You saw what happened when Thor got down to it, not one shot was landed, plus this is still Thor using his normal amount of restraint to not kill a mortal.
This is a bogus category, I am a Batman fan and I want to see him challenged, and while I thoroughly believe under the right circumstances and a little bit of luck on his side the Dark Knight will prevail against Wolvie. My main ***** about this topic is by removing Logan's healing factor, your making it a handycapped match... that is totally lame. If Batman can beat Superman in all his glory with ALL his powers, he can do the same with Wolverine. He'd probably use the Magneto trick once he figures out that Logan's bones don't break, and that first match will be a LOSS for the Caped Crusader, but he will do what he always does and crawl back into his cave to lick his wounds and plot how to best beat his opponent. With the knowledge of Wolvie's adamantium skeleton he will likely use an attack involving a super powered magnet. Remember Batman fights dirty and aint afraid to cheat. Don't misjudge or underestimate Batman, by making this a handycapped match where Logan has no healing factor, dude that's just insulting to the Dark Knight, and a let down to all comic fans who are dying to see a Wolvie/Batman crossover someday. There I said my piece. You'll probably remove this post but ah well.
Its not me having an ego its you being ignorant and not have the common knowledge that 90% of the comic vs forum has. Well trained? Elektra and Daredevil are not well trained they are masters at h2h combat not experts but MASTERS in various forms. You can be a god with 100's or even 1000's of years of experience and still not be a master. Experience doesnt equate to skill. Again I never said Thor wasnt skilled why you keep acting as if I did im not sure but he is not as skilled as the high calibre martial artist in comics thats just fact. For his weight class Thor is near the top I dont see to many herald level beings above him in skill I have read enough Thor to know his skill level
The fact that you have not given me a single example makes me doubt you. You keep on going on this rant on how Daredevil is such a master and I believe you because I have always known this but I asked you what has he done that tops Thor, and you ignored it by saying it was common knowledge. Well people believing him to be so skilled did not come out of nowhere so unless you give an example of some sort your argument carries s very little weight. There is no reason anybody should believe you when you have nothing that backs it up. An expert in hand to hand? So's Thor. While you say experience does not equal skill, skill can only come through experience. Dare Devil has plenty of it, Thor has more. I know you say Thor is skilled. Youve said 2 or 3 times now. You simply believe Daredevil is more skilled correct? I believe that is insane. This is my opinion and without feats to back it up I would look very stupid to precisely people like you. But I have backed it up and ill do it again now. http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums...pg?t=1298140658
You have not backed up anything you post scans that dont prove he is as skilled as Daredevil or Batman better to post nothing than irrelevant shit. I dont care if you doubt me your comic knowledge is obviously lacking back on topic since adressing how little you know is pointless . Wolverine wins
I think you need to look up what irrelevancy means. Oh please. You didnt have anything that could beat what I posted so just tried to dismiss me. Im fine with that. I prefer not to debate with people like you. Cant argue with idiots. If you had indeed backed up what you said I said i would admit your right depending on what you posted. Im big enough to admit when im wrong. You are obviously not. So okay cya.
I dismissed the scans because they didnt help you argument I suppose you think Balder and the warriors Three are also Daredevil level skillwise? You wanted me to find feat with street level people fighting class 50+ characters? And Im the idiot the newer members are horribly
No i dont. They dont have the feats. Of course not. Daredevil is a human. I dont expect you to give me a scan where he beats ares half to death or something. Just something showing his supreme amount of skill. You showed nothing. Why should I believe what you are saying with nothing to back it up? But that's enough. If you want to keep talking we can but via private message. No need to spam this up any further.
And the few times that he DOES look harder for the win though, people get WRECKED.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Big lulz @ this thread. So lemme see if I can get this straight....
Batman's skilled at swordsmanship because he beat Raz.
Raz al'ghul is skilled in swordsmanship because he's really reallllly old.... (and maybe because he beat Bane in a sword duel?)
Soooooo then Batman can beat Wolverine because Raz is likely a better swordsman than Wolverine based on the fact that he's really realllly old, even though Batman beating Raz already puts the age=skills idea to rest?
Swwwweeeeeeeeeeeeet circular reasoning we got goin on here.
Sorry but I'm thinkin if Bane could last more than several panels in a fencing fight with Raz after only reading a couple of fencing books in prison, mayyyyybe, just maybe, beating Raz isn't so much a feat....
Butthat'sjustme.
K... anywho... well Wolverine's owned Sabretooth, Bloodscream, and Shogun with a sword. So he's obviously able to used swordsmanship on a level that allows him to fight old, supermanly fast, and skilled fighters to an immediate and decisive advantage.
Upon taking the Muramasa, he diced up the latest Shiva droid with an EXTREME amount of ease. The Shiva program has multiple built in adaptive defense patterns to Wolverine's fighting abilities and every one of weapon X's files on Wolvie to draw from... the fact that he so easily put down a Shiva droid with his sword when the last Shiva droid put him through a pro-longed drawn out melee might even be an indication that he's much more effective or effecient at sword fighting in some respects than his typical melee-mode fighting.
Against sword weilding opponents:
He's disarmed Ogun, Azrael, Bloodscream, from their swords and owned them immediately after. Did pretty much the same with Deadpool.
Owned Shatterstar, took Black Knight to a draw (in spite of underestimating his sword), overwhelmed Swordsman, utterly annihilated Crusader, and took down the Shisengumi, the deadliest samurai to ever walk the earth who could only be killed by headshots...... ALL OF THESE FIGHTS he accomplished these feats without taking a single flush or solid hit. So he's obviously able to negotiate well trained swordsman and their offensive capabilities.
THEN you have his actual sword fights with swordsmen, fighting Shingen while drugged and rusty in swordsmanship, WHILE Shingen was cheating and able to parry and respond for a portion of the fight, able to draw Deathstrike out in a prolonged swordfight even though he wasn't looking for one, and able to outright humiliate Silver Samurai after brushing up on his sword skills.
On top of all this he has crazy random sword feats like resheathing a sword to a scabbard on a blitzing Elektra's back without harming her with a lunging throw, and using another thrown sword to take out a plane or training blindfolded, taking down multiple opponents with a wooden practice sword: (please log in to view the image)
At the end of the day Wolverine has the feats offensively and defensively dealing with swords, and swordsmanship. When bladed weapons are the staple of your character one thinks that's typically what's bound to happen.
AND, just because Wolverine loses his healing factor doesn't mean he can't take a shot. Even without the healing factor, Wolverine has Punisher level damage soak if not more. Sinister had to roast him completely weeks after Wolverine had been effected by AD poisoning and he was STILL having issues putting Logan down.
It's not beyond Logan's ability to just tank some shots and close the distance on Bruce to kill him ala Rob Roy style, and it's definitely MORE LIKELY that he'll just flat out be better than Bruce in swordsmanship to begin with....
But Batman wins........
(please log in to view the image)
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on Feb 20th, 2011 at 09:53 PM
Nu-uh... I will when they stop pronouncing it that way.
Anyways, as for this whole Thor mess.... ehhhhh yeah. No one said Thor isn't a skilled warrior. Of course he is. Even a street brawler is going to develop skillsets in fighting that are effective and invaluable if not refined. Thor obviously takes that principle and fact to another level altogether... not that I'm calling him a brawler but I digress.
Bottem line is that MA's in comics are a different kind of animal. If you're a non fodder character in comics noted for your skill then it's probably because that skill has been refined and developed to an uber level that can't be mirrored by people who rely on their powers.
As Wolverine once stated: Street levels have to be the best because their livelyhood depends on it.
As such, MA's in comics are going to be portrayed more skilled than guys like Herc, and Thor. It doesn't make the most sense IMO but that's how it is.
Bringing up a bunch of tough guys that Thor has fought doesn't really show him on a level of skill comparable to guys like DD.
Beating Fenris and Loki up at the same time? Yeah let me prepare to drop my jaw to the floor for that one.
For one we have Fenris who's supposed to have a lot of hype for himself but has never done anything of note in h2h but get his ass handed to him. He has virtually no skill almost non existant levels of h2h experience compared to Thor, and is not proven anywhere near as fast or agile as Thor either. Then there's Loki, who has only ever been described as a decent sword fighter, who doesn't typically engage in melee confrontations, and is once again physically outclassed by Thor to begin with.
AND THEN we have the fact that Captain America was beating on both of these guys in the same time span.... So yeah, the fact that Thor overwhelmed these two in h2h combat, while still impressive, doesn't show a level of skill on par with high tier MA's.
The fact is that Thor is a physically domineering opponent to most of the people he fights. Even if he doesn't outclass them in strength and durability, he's faster, or he's more agile, or their mindless beasts etc etc. When he does get put up against an opponent who physically outclasses him he tends to revert to mjolnir pretty damned quickly.
Guys like Cap, Daredevil, and Wolverine all have long laundry lists of taking on opponents who outclass them in EVERY. PHYSICAL. ASPECT. they bring to the game, and STILL winning in convincing fasion. We can deduce that their victory comes by way of skill because it necessarily can not be a product of anything else.
Not only this but the degree of lopsidedness between these characters is at times staggering. We're talking about these MA's taking down guys who are literally 100 times stronger than they are and more durable and going down to pressure points, stun kicks etc. These guys get noted for their skill by reputation, through Marvel stats, and in performance against OTHER characters who are largely noted for an ability in skilled fighting as well.
This isn't how Thor is portrayed, he's a warrior and he has his moments, sure, but they are not bullet points that define his career. Even Spiderman's used pressure points on superhumans, doesn't make him Daredevil in skill.
And if Thor WAS near DD in skill he wouldn't be getting danced around and/or bewildered by Cap every time they fight. The first time they went toe to toe Thor equated Cap's skill to "trickery" because he couldn't keep up with it. That's not the sign of someone who is Daredevil's equal in combat.
He's skilled, but Marvel treats their MA's differently.
The difference? When Thor tries to hand to hand with Creel in spite of being superior in multiple physical aspects he still has to work for the win.
When Creel's brought down to Wolverine's level and attempts to fight him he gets blitzed and armbared in 2 panels.
There's definitely a difference in skill as portrayed by Marvel, and it's asinine to pretend that there isn't.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
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But your right it all makes sense if we look at it your way. A well trained mortal is more skilled than a god with centuries experience in war. You think Juggs is an easy feat or something? He's a good fighter and even without his shields not taken down easily. To Thor he is nothing. You right about Creel though, his skill isnt very impressive. Regardless of this plz show me a scan that tops Thor being able to take down the god who shamed the Disir, or something more impressive than Thor being able to Stalemate Zeus for months. No way Thor couldve matched Zeus power for power, he had to use skill.
Feb 19th, 2011 06:31 AM
Creel was given the power to Hurt Thor. He did not have this power without gaining a high amount of invulnerability. That is why the fight lasted as long as it did. You saw what happened when Thor got down to it, not one shot was landed, plus this is still Thor using his normal amount of restraint to not kill a mortal.
Attachment: 
. Wolverine wins
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
