^ Yeah, I think to be fair, the question is just as much, is Captain Marvel equal to Superman physically, as it is, is Superman equal to Captain Marvel physically?
So cap is stronger, more durable to the point HV doesn't even bother him and close in speed and posseses a major weakness of superman, yet doesn't have a single h2h win to his credit. Did you see the scan I posted where cap amping his strength couldn't overpower superman,right?
That was the first and only time such a stacking feat was shown by Cap to match Superman physically. He didn't need such a thing to stalemate him in another contest of strength, nor did he do so against Eclispo-Superman. Fact of the matter is Cap, while drawing on the Power of Shazam by his lonesome, is treated as a very close peer or outright equal to Superman. Superman himself has conceded this point, and he experienced first hand the potency of what it's like to be Captain Marvel.
The fact that Captain Marvel requiring Atlas strength to combine with Hercules' strength to equal Superman or other beings never again being referenced, alluded to, or shown pretty much cements that point.
^You mean the Action comics 768 where the writer wrote a scene where mary marvel survived being cut in half IN HER HUMAN FORM. Or the scene where cap was handshaking superman while both Freddy and Mary were drawing power from him because power sharing was still effective. If a writer doesn't even know what are the powers of characters, how can we believe him otherwise full power CM far surpasses superman.
First of all, no one's arguing that "full power" CM surpasses Superman. At least no one should be arguing that, unless you're arguing the magical effectiveness of Cap versus Superman, in which case, Cap has the means to directly attack a vulnerability of Superman.
Secondly, they can still share power. Effectively, if all three of them split the Power of Shazam, they all have 1/3 of the power, but Billy's connection is the most "pure" so even so when they split the Power of Shazam, he walks away with a tad bit more than Freddy or Mary. When he's the only person using the Power of Shazam, Captain Marvel's portrayed more often than not as being roughly equal or flat out equal to Superman in a direct confrontation.
Thirdly, if you want to get technical, Captain Marvel, prior to his depowerment, was the Keeper of the Rock of Eternity and as such was the sum result of both Shazam and Captain Marvel. Even before assuming the guise of Lord Marvel, Billy was still operating as the Guardian of the Rock. You can take that as you will.
Yes, he did stalemate an upgraded superman for two hours in Superman:man of tomorrow 4 but who knows whether he amped or not, it all happened off panel. Considering he needed to amp himself to match his strength before upgrade and used lightning gloved fist to catch in Superman v2 216 my theory has more weight than yours. Regardless, we don't measure strength between two characters by only thier fights but other feats also. This is where superman edges cap out, cap lost to j'onn, got beat by lobo, stalemated WW who we all know is beneath superman, got beat by a royal flush gang robot which Booster gold and blue beetle beat. The funny thing is that superman has never koed cap on panel although he blitzed him koed in JSA 24 and beat off panel in public enemies but j'onn has. Even when Superman threatened to use a moon busting punch on Teth they never made him use it. Superman has always been stronger, faster(faster than Jay) and comparable durability with added powers and more skilled. Also if he used his powers creatively (on a forum where every surfer fan urges cosmic awareness against superman) he can easily defeat billy. All he has to do is to mimic captain marvel's voice and say shazam (thanks to his eidetic memory and being billy's mentor according to First Thunder). In Titans tomorrow batman(Tim) defeated freddy who was full captain marvel at that point by taping his voice and replaying it, as shazam lightning alway targets cap regardless of conditions.
All thing considered superman 7/10 IMHO.
You're seriously arguing that Superman can beat Captain Marvel by mimicing his voice?
Freddy's been depowered by mundane lightning before, something that doesn't cut it against Billy, who again, has a stronger connection to the Power of Shazam than Freddy or Mary does. Further more that's a future reality, and non-canon, anyway. If Billy uses his powers creatively, he simply unloads huge magical lightning on Superman without even having to say "Shazam". That line of thinking works both ways.
And if you take Superman's feats and ignore the times he hasn't been able to do away with Cap, I guess you can reach the conclusion you did, but when the two of them fight, Cap routinely stalemates Superman and without the mention of such "amps". Though I find it funny that you're more than willing to cling to that as the norm, even though it was only mentioned once, and throw out the rest of his history that shows him matching Superman without said stacking.
Byrne Superman sees lightning in slow motion. If superman used his speed cap's lightning won't even touch him. So you're urging billy's got a bigger connection to ROE and can't be changed to normal, then I shouldn't tell you that Captain nazi has used normal lightning to change cap to billy HIMSELF and it has occured three times post crisis. Again Cap usually stalemates superman doesn't mean he would stalemate him here, thing has stalemated hulk several times, it doesn't mean he would stalemate him here. Here he wouldn't meet dumb as shit superman, he would meet a genius both strategical and tactical who has punked people higher than him in food chain on weekly basis and doesn't has to cling to a rivalry of ages.
There are dumber things in comics than captain nazi turning captain marvel into billy by normal lightning. Like wolverine fighting gladiator for six straight days or batman surviving a bloodlusted superman's punches. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it never happened. It has happened to all members of marvel family numerous time and can't be argued as PIS and superman can and HAS created lightning.
That's never happened either. That's from a What If? You definitely like your non-canon stuff over actual real feats by the real characters we're discussing. He's Batman. I've never seen Superman create a lightning bolt. Feel free to direct me to a comic or show me a scan. And static electricity =/= lightning bolt. Unless Captain Nazi used simple electricity to revert Captain Marvel. Which would, again, be hilarious.
I dont recall captian marvel being bloodlusted. Supes wasnt going all out but captian marvel wasnt either. I think marvel was more agressive during the fight and never showed any signs of fatigue and by the end of the fight had supes in trouble. For what its worth i think a all out cap vs a all out supes would definitly be in supes favor.
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Oct 13th, 2011 07:31 AM
