Context IS your friend. Dooku pwned Anakin more times than not... First time they met... Dooku pwned anakin for a forum win... this was a anakin with help. Next time they face off.. in the same movie... Dooku makes him go 1/4 robot and pwns him again. That is 2 victories. Then, the next time they meet.. anakin has help.. which taxes dooku.. dooku doesn't want to kill Anakin so who knows how the fight would've played out had he wanted to. Huge context behind the sole WIN of anakin. Dooku is still 2 n 1 vs. an anakin with help both times.
Yoda WHEN he was trying to go for the kill (UNLIKE with Dooku) overpowed and disarmed SOMEBODY MUCH MORE POWERFUL than Dooku in Sids... The script and movie make this point clear. He got he better of Sids... That was a bloodlusted Yoda.. not the one that faced Dooku.. WORLD'S part. Next time buddy, remember, context and logic is your friend. Yoda crushes ANakin.
Kenobi being Force handled doesn't mean that his TK was weak. Luke levitated himself, his X-Wing and Isolder simultaniously like a feather from sky fall.
While other Jedi/Sith including Sidious can't save even themselves from a fall. Yet, in same book Force blast of a nightwitch nearly killed Luke, was meant to kill but he recovered after attunment with surroundings.
Kenobi is a powerful Jedi but could be caught off guard like Luke. However, Anakin's Force defences come quite naturally with anger. Dooku with direct Force push could only stagger him back, don't think that Yoda would do any better. And Yoda doesn't use TK as offencively, Jedi rely mostly on lightsaber.
Again, did Yoda demonstrate that his skill is above Dooku? Dooku who got outskilled by Anakin twice and never by Yoda.
13 years is far more than enough. You seriously underrate characters' ability to learn. I will again point out at self-trained Luke who with rage boost overwhelmed Vader's defences and shortly after RotJ defeated Lumya, which he couldn't defeat years later.
Sidious was a toddler, while Dooku was already apprenticing Qui-Gon and was hyped by entire Order. Plagueis allowed Sidious to weild lightsaber only many years later. And still most of his time Sidious dedicated to politics, not combat. Anakin and Kenobi had far more experience of fighting real opponents.
Yet, everyone will spit at you, if you say that Sidious is less skilled than them.
Also, I would like to see source that says Yoda mastered all Forms. I think it's another wookieepedia bullshit. In all sources I read Yoda was mentioned only as Ataru master.
True. He started fight offencively but quickly changed his mind. But it has nothing to do with single handed style. Dooku was driving Ventress back with single handed attacks.
Because of TK, which Yoda doesn't rely on during combat.
While in presence with Kenobi. When I say Opress was driving back both Anakin and Kenobi and when he casually shrugged them off from his shoulders, you said that Anakin was heavily restraining himself. But now you say how Dooku is uber cool by kicking "an angry" Anakin. Make up your mind. -_-
And I'm not convinced Yoda can't kick. People used to think he couldn't get into a Lightsaber fight. In the ROTS comic there's a scene where he kicks the Emporer. I can imagine him doing that with his athleticism and speed.
But pretty much every Jedi/Sith kicks. Or he could just resort to a force push, but I suppose we're ignoring that when talking Sabers only.[/quote]
Pretty much every Jedi/Sith doesn't have legs that are litteraly 4 times shorter, which makes it much slower, not just much weaker. I don't see any usefulness in such kick, it would only endanger him. Moreover, Yoda never got closer to Dooku or Sidious than one meter, which is still too far for a kick.
Nothing strange. It is not Anakin vs Yoda thread, it is Zone Anakin vs Yoda. Anakin that succumb to his rage with no Kenobi around to pretend being calm Jedi. Dooku couldn't do anything to him with saber, couldn't do much with TK and saved situation only with lightning, which Yoda can't use.
Oh, not again. It's absurd. Yoda dies, if he uses anything but Ataru. And Forms after I and II don't bring new techniques, only phylosophy with which you execute them. Sword fight is the most simple art as amount of techniques is very small. Moreover, Yoda couldn't use standard techniques, they are not designed for midgets like him. Likewise, you will never see anyone doing what Yoda did.
No, I never said that. I implied that they will keep fighting until one gets exhausted, which logically will be Yoda. No one can outskill Yoda because of his agility but neither can Yoda outskill other powerful opponents because of his physical limitations.
No, they weren't novices. There is no indication that he held back. It's just didn't take long time for them to make wrong move.
In any case discussing Dooku's fitness is pointless. He fought Ventress and Opress, spammed lightning, then fought Ventress again and still had enough charge to drive her back and to dominate with TK. Anakin outskilled Dooku twice because he got enraged, not because Dooku was tired. Force reserves are absolutly irrelevant. Jedi can fight much longer without tiring because of Force, not other way around.
That's why I said Yoda is a teacher and an instructor.
Yoda will choose not to fight you at all if he can help it .
Yoda also quoted That "The Best blades are best kept Sheathed".
Ok the TK...Again you underestimate our green little friend,
and why Luke's era is so unreal and over rated.
Yoda lifted an X wing with the Force
Yoda taught MANY Jedi Size Matters not when it comes to TK or anything about the Force
or your opponent.
Force reserves have alot to do with every thing
So what Anakin got enraged it didn't solve nothing but showed how reckless he was
which led to his defeat.
Jedi can fight much longer without tiring?
Where did you get this line of BS?
Qui Gon was tired when he fought Maul
Dooku was tired when he fought Obi Wan and Anakin
Yoda was tired after he fought Dooku and used TK to save Anakin and Obi Wan.
After using Ataru for a long time you will tire.
TK and any Force Power you use,you will tire.
And Yes even Over rated Luke gets tired
Even Mace.
And there's no proof of what you're saying is true
Even if you use Rage or get enraged you will be extremely tired
the body can't handle that much strain.
The same with Force speed.You will tire.
So what are you talking about?
Yoda will tire I'm not dening that
All I'm saying is who will tire first?
You keep bringing up rage and enraged and this the very thing that blinds and tires you.
You also said he lacks disarming power .
You don't need Power to disarm anybody .
This is probably the first thing Yoda will do.
Like I keep repeating Yoda was a master long before Anakin came along.
And Like I keep repeating try Rage if you wish that short burst of Power will leave him drained
and blind to simple intelligence like his duel with Obi Wan he LOST
Like with Yoda, he'll lose.
It's absurd that you keep imagining these senseless replies.
With that senseless logic (especially the tired thing)
We all seen and read that all Jedi,including Sith and other Force organizations get tired.
Even certain Force powers make you tired.
Really ? Fitness got alot to do with everything.
Ataru
Djem So (natural or Force enhanced strength).
Juyo
Vaapad
requires you to be Physically fit.
Just because he don't use TK in battle doesn't mean he can't use it.
Yoda is a master of TK Battle Meditation and many other Force powers.
I will give you credit for really trying to analysis this duel to a science,lol
But the fatigue thing,that's just not true.
The Physically fit thing, too.
You completely misunderstood my point. They can fight longer without tiring to the point that their performance decrease. Dooku's combat and TK performance did not decreae after fighting Anakin and Kenobi in AotC and even after fight with Yoda he could still Force crush huge metal pillar. Same way his performance did not decrease after fighting Ventress and Opress simultaniously, at the end he still stomped Ventress with TK.
TPM fight was much longer than any Dooku's fight. Yoda after fight with Dooku had to strain a lot to lift that pillar. Obviously they would get tired more than Dooku. If we assume that Dooku got tired after fight with Anakin and Kenobi, then it would be biased to assume that he couldn't perform well against Yoda considering that in CW he gave even worse performance against Anakin without fighting anyone prior to that. All Dooku's fights are very short. Moreover, Makashi doesn't require a lot of Force for accrobatics like Ataru or a lot of strength like Djem So. My point is that being tired is not the factor in case of Dooku's fights.
So you don't actually believe Skywalker was more powerful than Count Dooku by ROTS? Not even as powerful
Well then your really grasping at straws. As for you references I really don't get them. What's all this first time, second time nonsense? Quote which fight your referring to, because it seems to me like your actually using their AOTC fight as evidence and ignoring all their CW fights.
And who the heck told you Dooku didn't want to kill Anakin? He tried. He just couldn't.
Oh this "not going for the kill" excuse again. I guess you didn't notice that Anakin defeated Dooku without killing him. Oh and Mace also defeated Sidious for that matter again without killing him.
And just because Sidious is more powerful than Dooku doesn't mean he outclasses him in Sabers at all. Sidious was more powerful than Mace Windu and yet lost to him in a Saber fight.
I never said Kenobi was weak. We're discussing Raw Power vs Actualized Power. If Anakin had Fully Actualized all that Raw Power at his disposal then there's no way Kenobi could have stalemated him in a force push contest. Heck even Yoda or Sidious wouldn't be able to.
That's the whole point of Mastery. Mastery allows one to fully actualize all the power at their command.
In pure fencing skill? No, but Dooku does have decades and decades of experinece himself and is supposed to be the ultimate fencer.
Also Anakin never outskilled Dooku in fencing. He overpowered him twice with a kick and a grappling technique, something I don't see him doing to Yoda personally.
So you think that 13 years is enough for Anakin to master every form, but your finding it difficult to believe Yoda has accomplished that in 900 years??
That makes no sense to me.
But for the record it's in the Clone Wars Encyclopedia I believe. Has also been mentioned in SW Insider.
Also if it's so easy to Master forms then why hadn't Kenobi mastered anything by AOTC? Why was it only by ROTS that he is given the title "The Master" of Soresu.
I never said Anakin was fully enraged when getting kicked by Dooku. Although he was clearly already getting angry according to the script and the novel.
But what's that got to do with "skill" anyway? Dooku clearly out skilled both Anakin and Kenobi together in that scene. Kenobi doesn't even rely on anger and is at least as skilled as Skywalker.
But Yoda is more powerful than Dooku with the Force and has greater Force reserves than Count Dooku. So it's not the same. Every fight is different.
For example Maul stomped Opress in 5 seconds. Obi-Wan showed himself to be a superior saber duelist to Maul. And yet Obi-Wan never once showed he could defeat Opress in anything close to 5 seconds.
I see nothing stopping Yoda using Soresu or Makashi. In fact the script and novel actually had him using a very high level mastery of Soresu on Dooku, just standing there deflecting everything. I know this was scrapped for the film, but why would his size stop him deflecting blows?
So you don't think having a high level mastery of different forms and switching between them can be advantageous?
Why do you think Maul switched to using elegant Makashi moves when he wanted to quickly dominate Opress?
And again I don't buy that Yoda can't use other forms just because he's small. He did het into Saber locks with both Sidious and Dooku despite being a midget.
Yeah that's possible in a pure Saber fight. However in an all out I don't see anything stopping him smashing Skywalker around with Force Tk.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 14th, 2012 at 02:14 PM
Yes I'm referencing the AOTC fight between Anakin/Kenobi and Dooku.. You know, the highest for of canon. You know, the fight where Anakin pwned Anakin two seperate times for a forum victory.. One by one shotting him with lighting and another by making him 1/4 robot. . That is TWO victories in one movie.
Now, as we see.. Yoda had NO issue dealing with Dooku really and it was Dooku who decided to flee not Yoda. Dooku NEVER had any thoughts of fleeing against Anakin.. even an anakin WITH HELP on two occasions. That speaks volumes on who dooku felt was more powerful and a bigger threat. You can act like Dooku wasn't weakened already but HE WAS as stated in canon novelization and script. He was already taxed from facing both Kenobi and Anakin AND AND wasn't going for the kill as well.
You can act like that makes no difference but it makes a world of difference when it comes to ending a fight earlier. Show me where I said you can't win without going for the kill.. never did.. Yoda surely would've won that fight with Dooku had he stayed.. and mind you... it was a quick saber duel. Not some long drawn out battle. Mindset is key, and there is no way around that. A killing mindset opens up doors that a I want to capture you mindset doesn't. There is no logical way around that. Yoda beat better people that Anakin has and is just plain all around better PERIOD. This is a non fight and I don't even know why it's lasted this long.
So Count Dooku was superior to Padawan Anakin.. What the heck is that supposed to prove?!
Has anyone even denied that?! Hey guess what? When Mace Windu was 10, Count Dooku would have stomped him! Guess that makes Dooku clearly superior to Windu.. WOOP FOR LOGIC!
Actually if we go by the novel's description then Dooku would have given anything to flee Anakin in ROTS once he was going all out. He just never had the chance to flee him once Skywalker went all out.
He revitalized himself with the force then got beat by Skywalker. Whilst Skywalker was never tiring and only getting stronger. Bottom line, wouldn't have made a difference to the end game had Dooku been fresh. Anakin still would have won, just might have taken him longer.
And FYI Skywalker has consistently stalemated a fresh Dooku in the CW series.
You mean kind of like how Skywalker did? Yep.
Was Yoda any less willing to kill Dooku than Kenobi was willing to kill Skywalker?
Also Mace Windu did not hold back against Sidious but was still attempting to "Arrest" him, not "Kill" him.
Skywalker wasn't even going for the kill against Count Dooku. He just Decided to "Win", not "Kill."
This is all just an excuse. Dooku put up a decent fight against Yoda. Accept it.
You haven't actually proven anywhere that Yoda is superior to ROTS Skywalker in a Sword Fight. And yet you have the nerve to call it a "non-fight," with absolutely nothing to back that up.
According to the AOTC novel, Yoda's attacks had Dooku "skipping back desperately", and according to Vader: The Ultimate Visual Guide, Yoda's windmilling saber attacks "forced Dooku to flee." But since Dooku lasted a little over 30 seconds, it means that him and Yoda were actually stalemating (Arhael's logic). We also have no source that says how much Yoda was struggling so we must assume that he was, despite there being no visual evidents to suggest it (DP's wonderful logic).
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Yeah except that never happened in the movie. It was an even worse stomping in the script. But it's clear Lucas chose to change all that for the final cut.
The same windmilling saber attacks disarmed Sidious. Does that mean Sidious didn't put up a decent fight either?
Compared to Sidious's 40 seconds??
He's claimed Dooku temporarily stalemated Yoda. He's admitted many times that Yoda's Force Reserves would clearly outlast Dooku's.
Actually the novel calls Yoda "exhausted" after the fight. So certainly hard to believe it was an easy fight for Yoda, like you would have us all believe with absolutely nothing to back that up.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 15th, 2012 at 12:05 AM
Did you have to ask me this in public? I wanted everyone to think I had it.
I looked it up on Yoda's respect thread on Comic Vine.
Yeah, it did happen. Majority of Dooku's steps in that fight, were steps back. Yoda was controling Dooku's direction the whole time. You and Arhael seem to believe that just because Dooku wasn't constantly forced back in one direction, it means he wasn't forced on the defensive, which is wrong. Of course he's not going to take steps back in one direction because Yoda never pushes forward in one direction, he leaps all around his opponents.
And unlike Dooku, Sidious didn't have much room to move around in. Seeing how Sidious managed to stay on the chancellor's podium for as long as he did without being forced off, just shows how difficult it is to force him on the defensive, even for Yoda.
Not sure why you brought this up anyways. Because if anything, it would help my argument more than yours, seeing how Sidious is a superior combatant to Dooku
Damn. You're completely missing the point aren't you?
And this is the claim that I calling the both of you out on. Just because Dooku didn't get disarmed or blitzed within seconds, does not mean he was "temporarily" stalemating Yoda. How do you figure that they were stalemated when Dooku couldn't even stalemate him when he [Dooku] had a boost in power. And even if they were fighting equally in AOTC, would that not help to support my claim that Yoda may have been holding back? Unless we are to assume that Dooku can fight better without a boost in power, which would be silly.
lol, I was actually referring to the logic you were using with Kit vs Grievous. But I see that at least here you gave something to back up your argument (something you don't do very often)
However, I never claimed that that fight was an easy one. I made the claim that Yoda was holding back, and I have very good reason to believe so. If Yoda was going all out like you claim, why did he hold himself back from using the force on Dooku? I've also provided other evidents and reasoning for my claim, but you and Arhael have ignored them (Arhael actually dismisses them). I don't remember ever making a claim without backing it up.
Dooku and Yoda not near equals. The only time Dooku seemed to be a serious threat to Yoda in combat was when he had the element of surprise by his side and a boost in power. And even with all that, Dooku was still outmatched and forced to flee.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
Last edited by Dominis on Nov 15th, 2012 at 04:26 PM
Force reserves keep on being mentioned for proof of who would have more stamina in a fight. Can I see the narration or the fight please that talk about your m. count being higher means you have the most stamina in a fight. I'm sure it exists since you guys act like this is a fact.. I just wanna know wich fights or narration it comes from
In his final fight with Anakin, Dooku draws on his force reserves to keep from tiring out.
"He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away." -RotS novel
Also, Yoda should be a good example of how force reserves give more stamina. Yoda is over eight hundred years old and can barely even get around, but when he draws on the force, he is able to fight very fast, and for long periods of time. Merely walking seems to tire him out when he's not drawing on his force reserves.
__________________ "The power of the dark side is an illness no true Sith would wish to be cured of" -Darth Plagueis
I'm really not seeing where he was taking steps back. He's just moving around fending off Yoda's attacks.
The point your missing is that you used the novel as evidence that Dooku was "Skipping back desperately," which clearly didn't happen in the movie.
The part of the novel which we do see and which is probably more relevant is "Dooku held strong though, his red blade parrying brilliantly."
But I appreciate the point about Yoda's style being one to jump around his opponent. However your wrong saying he never pushed forward in one direction. Because when he was forcing Sidious off the pod, he obviously was aiming in one direction (script).
And IIRC Dooku was being forced backwards on Vjun. Though it was noted he was giving ground very slowly.
It wasn't exactly an ideal situation for Yoda either. Having to jump around the edges of the Pod. Yoda HAS TO Jump around due to his style/size. Sidious doesn't. Yoda actually had the perfect environment to fight in against Dooku able to bounce off walls and pillars e.t.c.
Oh and not to mention that Yoda fought a fresh Sidious, whilst he fought a Dooku who had just been in 2 other fights!
Sidious is a superior saber duelist to Dooku? Debatable. But I suppose he did fight Yoda for a few more seconds, so that is a superior showing to Dooku (slightly).
My point being Sidious obviously put up a good fight, by using your logic I could argue "no, he only survived a few more seconds than Dooku did. That doesn't make Sidious and Yoda near equals"
Well Ok then we can say Dooku temporarily "held his own," or "held strong" against Yoda. I think the word "stalemate" is just getting on some people's nerves.
And on Vjun again Dooku was holding his own very well, and only began to give ground very slowly. By the description it sounds like he lasted a lot longer on Vjun, and seemed to have done better than even Sidious did (in Sabers). So being on Vjun definitely helped him.
And we don't even know the magnitude of the amp he got there. All we know is that he was described as operating at a level above his norm, and above Mace Windu's norm as well. It could have been 5% above his norm. Who knows?!
Yeah yeah.
It's actually just you trying to turn your speculation into facts. There maybe reason to think that's a possibility, but you turn those possibilities into facts far too often when it suits your argument.
Perhaps he was too busy defending himself from Dooku's non-stop firing.
On top of that it sounds as if he was still trying to determine if Dooku's definitely truned to the dark side, as half way through the Force fight he says, "Powerful you have become Dooku. The Dark Side I sense in You.."
After which he does deflect Dooku's attack back on him.
Besides which he only gave one direct force push to Sidious which was in return for Sidious hitting him first.
Point being, stop speculating on possibilities and turning it into facts which support your view.
Unfortunately most of your "backing up" is very speculative.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Nov 16th, 2012 at 02:24 PM
Nov 13th, 2012 05:54 PM
I wanted everyone to think I had it. 
