Yeah, not saber combat. He's applying that technique overall, but not saber combat.
It shows Anakin's the most dangerous overall, which would also include his physicals. With respects to raw prowess with a lightsaber, there's no proof that Anakin's the best, or at least, you're not showing it.
Also, you really think Anakin is "far more dangerous" than Yoda or Palpatine?
Since you love Palpatine quotes, it's worth noting that he says "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us."
Just proof that Palpatine/Yoda's still stronger
I'm not supporting either of them as the best. I'm saying they each have quotes to put them over Anakin. They probably tie for me, or Yoda has the slight edge.
Although interestingly, for a long time, I thought the quote only referred to Jedi, but it seems like it means Yoda is better than any duelist shown in the guide.
Perhaps.
Scanner's broken, but it's just a little block with notes about Yoda's lightsaber inside.The entire paragraph is:
As you can see, the rest of the notes are completely unrelated to it.
Obviously. I'm not saying Tyranus is better than Skywalker...
Alright.
You must've missed the part where I posted the RotS junior novel's take on the fight:
Moreover, Dooku is fully capable of holding his own against Yoda, a tier 9 duelist:
I'm also emailing Gillard with my own questions. I'll get back to you with his answers.
Obviously Skywalker's better than Dooku...
I know you like to overstate your performance, my boy, but really?
Last edited by SunRazer on Oct 2nd, 2016 at 01:35 AM
Also, you don't get to pick and choose what you don't want. The junior novel is in fact more aligned with the film than the RotS novel, and the film/film script doesn't have Dooku being destroyed like in the novel. The novel's in fact, an outlier. I'm not saying we take the junior novel word-for-word, but it counts for something.
According to one, extreme outlier source, yeah. Either way, Dooku can contend with tier 9's. Concession accepted.
No, I have no interest in a multi-page debate, lmfao.
Uh, the novel was edited line-for-line by Lucas. The movie, novel, and video-game all display Skywalker being on the winning side against Dooku, and by significant portion.
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Lmfao, then why cite the Fact Files if its an extreme outlier?
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
2. The video game is completely non-canon. Regardless, Anakin's winning in the movie, but not to the extent of the novel. The junior novel and comic make it clear that they're near-enough even. Obviously the film and novel hold the most weighting, but it's not a huge disparity.
3. Supplementary sources in general are extremely generous to Dooku there.
1. No, I was looking for the quote to suggest that Anakin was more skilled than Dooku. I never said Dooku was more skilled, and I have them as about equally skilled.
2. He can contend as he did against Yoda. In other words, your former argument that you've held for months about Anakin slaughtering Dooku isn't true.
Dooku only appears to be on the losing end due to Anakin's Force reserves, not because he's being outplayed in swordsmanship.
Last edited by SunRazer on Oct 2nd, 2016 at 02:04 AM
The game is canon. And no, the comic has Skywalker sending him in full retreat in a matter of seconds. The movie also shows Dooku in quick retreat.
?
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You said he wasn't better, so whatever it was, it was stupid.
Wait a ****ing minute, lmfao. Are you trying to argue that because some Fact File states Dooku can contend with Yoda, it means that the RotS novel fight isn't canon? Lmfao dude, just take a L.
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__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Really? Then I'm ranking Cin Drallig up, lol, for contending with Anakin in TK. And because the game also claims that if Cin Drallig and his inferior, Serra Keto, took on Anakin together, it would take Anakin everything he had to beat them both. So goodbye to the Drallig stomp.
Pretty sure Leland Chee declared the game non-canon, but whatever.
It's still not the "slaughter" as depicted in the novel.
And yet, aside from ad hominems, you still haven't shown me proof that Anakin's more skilled, only that he's better overall, which makes sense, since he's much stronger in the Force.
Show me, or concede. Stop wasting my time with ad hominems and petty insults. Your case is going to shit with them.
You're dumber than a fruit shop owner, dude.
Stop reading things that don't exist
tl:dr - Anakin's stronger, faster, better everything relating to physicals. Still haven't seen proof that his finesse with the blade is better than the Count's.
Last edited by SunRazer on Oct 2nd, 2016 at 02:11 AM
The comic has Dooku in full retreat in seconds. The game has Dooku literally running from Anakin. Lmfao.
>"you're dumber than a fruit shop owner"
>"aside from ad hominems"
But sure, let's ignore quotes deeming Skywalker unparalleled by Gillard and Palpatine.
Your argument made no sense to begin with. My apologies if I interpret BS for BS.
You're not a member of the Skywalker Brigade. You're a fraud.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
The difference being that I've offered the quotes and am waiting for you to do the same. Ad hominems after you've proven your point are fine. Before, though? Nah. You can't substitute actual arguments with ad hominems.
Overall quotes don't refer specifically to lightsaber finesse.
There was no argument. I was looking for quotes that made Anakin out to have specifically better lightsaber skill, not overall lightaber ability, than Darth Tyranus. So far, you've shown me general quotes about him being better overall, and that your anger matches Skywalker's.
You've misinterpreted my stance repeatedly, and constantly put words in my mouth. You're going to have to do better than that before you call anything BS.
No, I'm just not an emotional hothead like you who can't stand his wank being challenged or questioned. That's not a true supporter of Skywalker. You're doing him a disservice with this crappy emotional performance.
As of yet, we've proven that Dooku can hold his own against tier 9's, and that Anakin is better than him. We've made no real progress.
Last edited by SunRazer on Oct 2nd, 2016 at 02:24 AM
I never understood why people who've known me for years try to slip the "you're throwing insults, so you must be mad!" card when they know that's not the case. Saying that is the actual display of pettiness and frankly just looks embarrassing on your end. Looks like some shit some SJW would pull out when being hammered with facts.
Anyway:
He pushes Dooku from the start to the top of stairs in the time it takes Kenobi to dismantle six droids.
You've offered nothing.
Then what's even the point of this discussion if you don't think it pertains to anything overall, lmfao? I've cited example after example highlighting Skywalker as a vastly superior duelist than Dooku. If we want to look at the AotC fight, Skywalker was briefly contending as equals with Dooku, even despite the fact Dooku was more powerful at the time. By DD, they fought as equals even before Skywalker's growth in technical skill in the Outer Rim Sieges. Note that I would also consider them equals of the Force, or Dooku slightly superior, at this point as well, so it's not like Skywalker had that advantage.
Above.
Above.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Oct 2nd, 2016 at 02:30 AM
I'm not wasting my time on justifying whose use of the ad hominems was right, lol. Let's debate with just the facts.
Fair enough.
That a source thinks Dooku can match Anakin and that sources think Dooku can hang with Yoda, a tier 9 duelist of potentially greater stature than Anakin? Yes, I have.
Don't try to dismiss what people say when you disagree; acknowledge it all the same.
I don't even understand what you're saying here.
I was looking for a quote showing Anakin's supremacy in sheer lightsaber skill, and I didn't get it. That's all. I know Anakin has quotes for supremacy in overall combat. I wanted to add to his hype collection, but I wasn't able to find quotes for Anakin being more skilled than Yoda or Sidious, or even Dooku, so I asked for a quote. When you gave me two, because they didn't pass my scrutiny, you got mad. lol
Per my quotes, not even Yoda was "vastly" superior, so even if Anakin was a bit better than Yoda, that wouldn't amount to being vast, especially seeing as Dooku lasted a decent amount of time against Anakin.
You don't need to worry, lol. I have Skywalker >> Dooku.
Obi-Wan drove Dooku back briefly in AotC as well. Sources repeatedly note that Tyranus defeated Skywalker easily, anyway.
What's the quote for the growth in technical skill? This might your strongest case yet. I thought DD was in the midst of Anakin's growth anyways.
Frankly, when one source of five says one thing, and then four of five says another, I'm inclined to completely reject the former as an outlier. In this case, the adult novel, movie, comic, and video-game show Skywalker dominating. In contrast, the junior novel says Skywalker fought equally. I acknowledge that, but dismiss it under the grounds of inconsistency. Lelaand Chee has stated that the number of sources stating a fact is a prime thing looked at in determining the overall truth.
I'm asking why the discussion is even relevant.
My rebuttal to this was one you dismissed for not making sense, so allow me to explain.
The adult novel, comic, and video-game undeniably shows Skywalker as vastly superior.
Thus, by using this argument, you're effectively positioning a tertiary source above primary and secondary sources.
To reconcile the contradictions, I'm forced to interpret "to contend with" as even less to the extent AotC Kenobi could contend with Dooku. Furthermore, let's examine the main sources here:
Primary sources:
- Movie: Dooku can "contend," but clearly outmatched.
- Script: Dooku cannot even "contend," he is completely outmatched.
Secondary sources:
- Comic: Dooku cannot even "contend," he is completely outmatched.
- Adult Novel: Dooku can "contend," but clearly outmatched.
- Junior Novel: Dooku cannot even "contend," he is completely outmatched.
The list goes on, but those are the main five sources. As shown, more sources actually paint the picture Dooku cannot even contend, let alone to the extent you are trying to imply. Thus, I have the grounds to dismiss the Fact Files quote, a tertiary source, as an outlier. However, I'm being generous and, like I said, rationalizing it as Dooku can contend, but only just. And then with Skywalker, who's even more dominating than Dooku, he can't even do that.
Yes, but explicitly not to the same extent as Skywalker. Kenobi driving him back doesn't help your case either.
Again, let us see:
Primary sources;
- Movie: Skywalker can "contend," but ultimately outmatched.
- Script: Skywalker cannot even "contend," he is completely outmatched.
Secondary sources:
- Comic: Skywalker can "contend," but ultimately outmatched.
- Adult Novel: Skywalker can "contend," but ultimately outmatched.
- Junior Novel: Skywalker can "contend," but only just.
So, again, as per the five chief sources, a majority describes Skywaker as contending, with three showing him pushing Dooku very impressively.
Yes, other sources, like Fact Files, encyclopedia entries, etc. might also support Dooku won easily, but I'm inclined to believe just as many also say Skywalker performed well, based on the above statistics.
Before I answer, can you confirm Skywalker used Djem So during the Clone Wars prior to the Outer Rim Sieges?
The growth occurred during the Outer Rim Sieges, in which Windu noted he hadn't seen Skywalker in months. DD was still when Skywalker routinely visited the Council, meaning he had yet to go off to war.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Oct 2nd, 2016 at 02:52 AM
Also, I recognize my post was lengthly, but please just respond to relevant portions (ex. "I agree" and "OKs" don't need responses). Also lump sections together and be concise. If it's too long, I won't respond.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Oct 2nd, 2016 at 02:57 AM
Well, in fairness, he also says "which explanation is cooler" is a factor, which basically sounds like "pick the explanation you like most!"
The disparity here is that I don't view the script as a primary source. It's an old prototype of the fight with a number of significant changes being made to it, and it's not even canon. At best, it's tertiary, for me. And the comic and junior novel (to an extent) follow that, whereas the adult novel seems to follow the movie, which is the only primary source here.
I have three more quotes about this being a draw. And as I said, the script is tertiary for me. So primary has Dooku contending, secondary has Dooku being outclassed (one contending source versus two outclassing sources), and tertiary is filled with support for Dooku contending. So I think that's the majority there.
Lightsaber combat is pretty random. Inferior duelists can usually drive back superior ones is they take them by surprise, which Obi-Wan did against Dooku.
The movie does have Anakin contending, but the junior novel explains that Dooku was toying with Anakin. So it's questionable here.
Also, are you of the thought that if there's, say, 10 tertiary sources, does that override 1 primary source, or do you believe that any single source, as long as it's primary, takes precedence over an infinite amount of "lesser sources"? And what about secondary sources?
I'm pretty sure he did. I don't have quotes on hand, though.
Oct 2nd, 2016 01:24 AM
