Rampant, aside from him being unable to use Force lightning - I don't see why Vader isn't more powerful in the Sith ways than Dooku. Given that he had another decade to practice it, I'd guarentee it.
I wouldnt dispute that Vader is more powerful in terms of the darkside, and perhaps the force overall. His raw power is phenomenal and if he was to execute a move like Force Crush then the battle would more than likely be over. However Count Dooku has decades more lightside experience and still a reasonable amount of darkside training. His force powers may lack the raw power of Vaders, but his control and mastery are equal if not greater than Vaders.
When Obi-wan blocked the lightning it wasnt in a battle situation and Dooku certainly didnt put much effort into concealing what he was about to do and the attack itself. It was merely just a quick blast to give Kenobi a taste of how powerful Dooku had become. This is reinforced by the fact Dooku then says "Now, back down" - meaning the the attack was never meant to injure Kenobi.
There is also the fact that Dooku never intended to fight either of them at that point. he had statred the Clone wars and was then on his way to Coruscant when he got ambushed by the duo. He knew that Clones would get to the hangar where they were very soon and knew that when that happened he would get captured. Finaly, Dooku wouldnt want to harm Obi-wan. Remember slightly earlier in the movie Dooku was trying to turn Obi-wan. Kenobi is like Dooku's lost grandson.
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Okay, Sidious made his comment about his lightning because it was true. He could overwhelm Vaders circuits with lightning as of RODV. You know why? Because he's Sidious. He's powerful. The actual lightning itself would damage Vader, but, it's because it's from Sidious, an uber force user, that Vader would be overwhelmed. What would he have said to Dooku? "Instead of frying your circuits, I couldn't use lightning, because we all know how skin is unphased by electricity, unlike Vader's armor." No.
In fact, what happened when Vader was put up against Sidious' lightning? He showed a greater resistance to it than any other character, and this was after he got beat down and was missing a hand.
Sith lightning, when it isn't blocked, will hurt anyone, regardless of if they are a cyborg or not. Anakin and Luke were both on the ground after a dose, while Vader took it and still managed to throw Sidious down a pit. Now, what is the difference between Sidious' lightning and Dooku's? Obi Wan blocked Dooku's lightning casually with one hand in AOTC, while Sidious' lightning would have overwhelmed Mace Windu had it continued, and it took all of Yodas effort to hold it back.
In end, Lightning is just as effective against non-cyborgs (maybe even more so, given Vaders apparent resistance, that put Luke, a mostly organic person down for the count) when it is unblocked. It's either it fries your circuits or it fries your flesh. The thing is, Vader could block the lightning, because, Obi Wan in AOTC, absorbed it with his saber without a second thought.
Wtf are you talking about. I am hardly denying that Sidious' lightning is far stronger than the Counts. But that is hardy relevant to someone such as Vader - he would short circuit form the lightning regardless of who was using it. The simple fact that he is run by wires, ciruitry and a life support system should be evidence enough that it is irrelevant who is firing the lightning.
I disagree entirely. As soon as he got hit by the lightning he was f*cked. StarWars.com states Vader was bombarded by the Emperor's Force lightning, mortally wounding him. In addition to that, his breathing faltered and became uneven, his suit started smoking and you could see his f*ckin skeleton. I would say that Vader faired a hell of a lot worse than other people exposed to the lightning.
I agree. But after Luke and Anakin got hit with it they were back up and fighting (or flying a ship in Luke's case) withing minutes, even seconds. after Vader got hit he is described as being mortally wounded. You do the maths from there.
Read the above. Vader took it and died as a result.
Well, there is the fact that Sidious' lightning is much stronger. Im hardly arguing that, so there is no need to imply that I am.
Lol, you are comparing apples and oranges. When Dooku fired the lightning at Kenobi it is slow and deliberate. The viewer can clearly see that the lightning was just a small display of Dooku's power. This is reinforced when Dooku says Now, back down. Someone is not likely to say that when their opponent has just withstood the best you had to offer. Also Dooku absolutley pwns Anakin with lightning, which is described like this.
ANAKIN charges across the open space at COUNT DOOKU, who smiles faintly, watching him come. ANAKIN raises his lightsaber. At the last moment, COUNT DOOKU thrusts out an arm and unleashes a blast of Force lightning. ANAKIN is hurled across the room, and slammed into the opposite wall. He slumps to the foot of the wall, semi-conscious.
As you can clearly see, just a small amount of Dooku's lightning had disastrous effects on young Sywalker.
Sidious' lightning was different altogether. He was actually trying to destroy Mace, thus making his lightning more deadly.
The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death.
This clearly shows that Sidious was fighting with considerable effort.
Read above posts. Vader was mortally wounded when struck by the lightning, unlike any of the organics who get hit with it and are up and rearing to go seconds later. Obi-Wan blocked the lightning easlily because it was a short, sharp display of Dooku's powers. Meant to intimidate as oppose to harm.
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Last edited by Rampant ox on Nov 23rd, 2006 at 07:53 AM
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Stubborn rampant
read this quote that escape81 have gave
And rampant need i not say that Vader can channel his raw power properly? That he can be calm and call upon the tremendous power of the dark side to make him even stronger? And do i have to remind you he shredded the metal door in vol9 Endgame
Saber = vader
Overall = vader
And since we have ANH obi wan its an overkill because obi1 by Anh is far stronger than the force that he was in ROTS
Last edited by BoratBorat on Nov 23rd, 2006 at 11:45 AM
Rampant, that does not mean that Palpatine was attacking Mace with every last drop of energy he had. Full force in this case means that all of the lightning that the Emperor generated nailed Mace. Unlike the last time, there was nothing that stopped it from hitting him.
Registered: Sep 2005
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Rampant, Dookus lightning can be blocked with a saber. It really is that simple. As for lightning killing Vader, that's true, it does have more of an effect, a fatal one... in the long run. He will be killed by it later on, but, he can actually act through it instead of writhing in pain, like everyone else. In the context of a versus fight, it might even be better than being organic. If Vader gets hit and doesn't block lightning, he can act for a minute. Everyone else would be down on the ground. Of course, the lightning doesn't have a lethal after effect, but, it would knock them unconscious, leaving them at the mercy of their foce-lightning-weilding opponent (which is basically none in a versus fight).
However, Vader could just put up his saber... so... Lightning shouldn't be the sole source of your argument, and Vader seems to excel in all other categories.
Obi Wan either sits and watches a tough fight between the two, eventually ending in Dookus death, or helps Vader give Dooku a beat down.
I don't see Obi-Wan going toe-to-toe with Count Dooku on his best day, and here, out of practice and stale, he's going down hard, removed by a good Force attack or slashed open by his lightsaber. Vader is only really a threat in a duel because of his brute strength, and Dooku could easily keep him at bay with blasts of lightning. Once he's taken care of Kenobi, he'll proceed to take out Vader in a fair contest.
Vader is only a threat because of his brute strength?
I hardly think so. Vader is, again, 80% of RotJ Sidious. If Dooku is more than that (which I doubt), he is not by much. Vader has also been given ample time to master the Sith arts and dark side methods in such a manner that his mastery likely exceeds Dooku's own - given that he's had a decade longer to practice them.
Sidious also said that Vader's true limitations resided in the "will, not the flesh in Rise of Darth Vader. I'd say he pretty much conquered those by the time of The Empire Strikes Back.
He's also likely had more lightsaber duels in his time, too, given that he spent twenty years hunting down survivors of Order 66.
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Well that sith power resides in the will not flesh is damm true, Sion proved this and so did nihilus. But i doubt that vader completely shaken all his despair yet. Because palpatine noted i think that if he shakes all his despair and doubts "The incredible power will reawaken" in him. That means he would be at his FP
And palpatine is the smartes man in SW so id say he is right
Umm Mace died within seconds of Palpatine's lighting in ROTS and Vader managed to live a while after being blasted by Palpatine's in ROTJ. Just for the record.
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Last edited by ESB -1138 on Nov 24th, 2006 at 05:18 AM
To say that Vader resisted it better is wrong IMO. I mean, Sidious wasn't even aiming at him (though partly), he was above him, unless his lightning is moving like a round spinning motion, Sidious will get blasted as well, especially since he is electrocuting Vader, and Vader is holding him. Sidious would probably have done so much better against Vader if they were going toe to toe!
And really, Dooku holding back against Obi with lightning? I hardly think so. He displayed the same kind of lightning as he did against Yoda, and he hardly toys with Yoda, especially not at the second time does an attempt to electrocute him...
And also, Dooku with a grin was about to kill Obi-Wan right after their duel, I don't see no sings of caring or holding back!
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What does Tyrannus have that Vader doesn't??? OMFG, Force Lightning. The Force Lightning got easily countered by Kenobi. And like kamikz said above, Tyrannus was trying to kill Kenobi with that Lightning because there wasn't no apparent change of Lightning strength between Kenobi and Yoda. Vader can easily block this Lightning. Now after Tyrannus uses Lightning and finds it not helpful, what does he do? That's right, lightsaber combat. And who wins here? Vader. Seriously, we debated this in the largest thread here and people still say "Tyrannus pwns with FORCE LIGHTNING, OMG yeah".
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More or less, Prodigal.
Let's recap some advantages Vader has in lightsaber combat.
* Massive amounts of physical strength (especially when compared to Dooku), and a form that utilizes his strength. It also turns out that this form is great against Makashi.
* Semi lightsaber-resistant armor. It isn't a huge advantage, but against weak hits of Makashi, it's better to have than not.
* Speed. Although Vaders form is all about holding ground and staying relatively still,he has the capability to be fast, as seen in Crimson Empire and other sources.
* Knowledge of Dooku and his fighting style. Dooku knows nothing about Vader, but Vader will remember Dooku, I'm sure.
* Kenobi.
Nov 23rd, 2006 04:37 AM
