Vader was hit by lightning and was mortally wounded. All of the organic life forms (from the movies) got hit by lightning were up and rearing to go within seconds. this clearly shows that Vaders life support cant withstand lightning of any power.
I do doubt a lightning attack would immediately kill him, as in as soon as it connects to his suit "KA-POW....*drop dead in that same second*", however I'd also have to take a position of skepticism that if Vader got hit by an actual attack (in other words, no "Turncoat Suprise" business), he'd be able to do anything.
For example,
Count Dooku is ten feet away from Vader, and blasts him with lightning. He won't be dead at that very second, but he won't be able to really do much if there's a significant amount of power behind it. It took all of his remaining strength to even carry Sidious, and we can deduce that Sidious' lightning was far from his upper limit, or even Dooku's own, at that point (given in his weaker state in RotS, he was able to tool Mace Windu, who isn't as susceptible to lightning as Vader is), so in essence, it does matter because lightning will eliminate Vader by a vastly shorter amount of time - depending upon the strength levels put behind the attack.
And actually considering how Count Dooku's lightning mid duel was able to render Sora Bulq unconscious, I'd say a blast to Vader would, in fact, kill him. Maybe not immediately (again, I reinforce that second), but he'd still be dead in a relatively short amount of time; he would not last nearly as long as he did in RotJ, not even close.
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Hmm ok then, but i thought that force dissipate creates a layer of the force on your hand to block out bolts, how come it wont work on lighting?(vaders case), its not like the lightning is going through the layer of the force on vaders palm
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Ok i hear some utter bullshit in here mixed with some logic. First off, Ox, how many people did we see hit with lightning, 3? Not including mace cause we didn't see him after it wore off. But ok, Anakin..was hit and thrown and did not get up within seconds. I even believe you were boasting the power of Dooku's lightning before saying, "it floored Anakin for couple minutes.", but now it's seconds in an attempt to downplay Vader's capabilities. Yoda...not hit with a constant stream, but rather a strong burst that leveled his ass as well, for more than a few seconds...he was laying there with his eyes closed for more than a few seconds, before he mustered the energy to even stand up. And then we have Luke, this is where more than one point will arise from. He was shocking the shit out of Luke and he was laying there smoking, and was hardly up and rearing to go within a few seconds. So that's that.
And now on to something Advent said I cant agree with. Sidious said, now Young skywalker, you will die, which would imply that he was upping the power of which he was attacking him with, and then was frying his ass. In the middle of this attack is when Vader picked him up and tossed him over the edge, right? What evidence is there to even entertain the thought that once vader picked him up, his lightning power was decreased? I mean, he was giving it to Luke, badly, and then got lifted right above Vader's head, and nowhere did it say or imply that he lowered the ferocity of the attack. And it was at point blank range, and could have traveled immediately down the severed hand circuits being as it was touching the man who was radiating the force lightning. So it's logical to deduce that a mid duel FL attack would kill vader any faster then Sidious'...not at all. If anything, we would have to assume that Palp's lightning was at the least, the same level he was hitting Luke with, being as you said, it was a turncoat surprise, and wouldn't necessarily give Palps the time and opportunity to adjust the lightning.
When Anakin was hit by Dooku's lightning he was fighting again in less than a minute. Now I assume that because it is less than a minute we count in seconds. Hence the reason I said that he got up seconds after being hit. Unless you would prefer me to say that they got up .58 minutes after being hit.
Can't agree? I suppose I can entertain your thoughts then, but I'd advise you not to make blind assumption just because something isn't stated in clear black and white. Although, it may be a little late for that warning label.
Sidious says a lot of things. From what we've seen displayed of the sheer power and intensity his lightning can generate up to his incarnation RotJ, it can clearly kill the victim in a relatively short amount of time, or at the least, knock said victim unconscious upon contact. Luke had neither of those ill effects induced upon him, in fact, he was still writhing in pain, and could still muster the strength to call to his father for help, continuously I might add.
Furthermore, as soon as the lightning is lifted off of Luke and thusly goes into the air wildly, Luke gets right back up.
What evidence? We know that Force attacks are measured by concentration (at least continuous attacks). Darth Vader broke that concentration by benchpressing Sidious into the air, which caused confusion. While it's obvious that the lightning generated at that point was intensified, it doesn't mean it had increased tenfold, much less that Vader got hit with the same amount of power.
The Force doesn't work like a handgun. Concentration has a lot to do with it, and the power behind it. Unlike a handgun, which whatever you're doing will still fire nearly the same at that type of range.
Even to further the point, in ANH when Ben Kenobi is instructing Luke, we notice that without proper concentration, he gets zapped in the ass by the remote droid. When he does concentrate in the sense that all Jedi do, he blocked them seemingly without effort.
Again, I'm deducing that. As well, you keep suggesting that his lightning was at it's fullest, while it clearly wasn't anywhere remotely close at the time.
Badly? Somewhat. He was torturing him, and as I already noted, he gets up right after the lightning attack is done being assaulted upon him.
Just like your last statement, right? Perhaps you meant "So, is it logical...[?]"? Either way, I'll address the point, just stating the last sentence isn't grammatically correct.
1. How is it "illogical" to take into consideration that a blast similar to the one that knocked Sora Bulq unconscious, won't kill him any faster than Sidious' wild assault, which wasn't even focused on Darth Vader, but instead drawn to? Especially a more concentrated, and seemingly more powerful version given that Vader is far more susceptible to lightning than Sora Bulq?
Just to reinforce, he may have been radiating in lightning, but the power more than likely could not have been the same, and the attack was not generated specifically toward Vader.
2. "In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader."
Excerpt from the RotJ novel. If you notice, usually one is not "flailing wildly" when they are concentrated or focused. If you also will note, it says that the lightning "ripped across the room", and implies it was drawn to Darth Vader, so again it's even more illogical to assume that the energies emitted from the waves of lightning would be as powerful if a) concentration was broken and b) if it wasn't even focused on him.
3. Given that the lightning didn't kill him in the Emporer's Throne room (as he was carried by Luke, still alive), it's also highly implausible that Sidious' lightning - which we've seen demolish an entire battalion of Stormtroopers, utterly destroy Mace Windu, and floor Yoda (which not apply immense strength, or continuous) - was anywhere near its apex. From what we've displayed of it, it seemed to be less damaging to a man who is a crippled cyborg, who's suit is a conduit for electricity. Which leads one to believe it was hardly as strong as it could be, and that it was significantly less powerful when applied to Luke, and even less to Vader (as he broke concentration).
Actually, "we" don't have to assume jack shit, son.
As a matter of fact, considering Luke was hit with a lot of lightning, and still managed to get up immediately after - it's not far fetched to say that Vader, who got hit with a lot less, wouldn't die quickly, in addition to the matter that Sidious' lightning wasn't at his upper limit (or apparently near).
Hm, I'm sorry, but the wonderful "Turncoat Special" Vader served Sidious for dinner would break concentration. Which is key to my argument. In fact, you stating that he neither had opportunity nor time to adjust the intensity would seem to take a part from my argument. As, since he apparently couldn't do such, the strength levels behind the lightning would turn into whatever his "broken concentration" were. Which would be quite an amount lesser than what we see on Luke, which wasn't even his near the culmination of its power.
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Last edited by Advent on Nov 27th, 2006 at 10:14 PM
Like I said before. If Dooku can hit Vader, Vader's dead. But I don't see that being easy for him, and Vader's skill rivals and likely surpasses Count Dooku in sheer combat.
Hey, how about instead of making a comment on an argument you plainly didn't read through, you actually read through?
Here's what I wrote, just in case your spectacles weren't equipped:
And of course, that was in response to Kadesh's ridiculous assertion that Vader can block Force lightning with his bare hands (artificial rather), simply because he was shown to block a blaster bolt in ESB. My argument had nothing to do regarding if Vader were to be in possession a lightsaber, it's generally without a lightsaber that I stated my response to; as indicated by me saying "without a lightsaber" dually.
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Then explain something to me . If vader used force dissipate to block that bolt? isnt the bolt coming INTO contanct with a layer of the force that vader has created on the palm of his hands? How is the lightning going to even get past that layer of the force vader created on his hands? Didnt the guides say that if dies only IF the lightning hits him and not the layer he makes on his hands?
If Vader even used the Force to essentially deflect the bolt, then possibly. As I stated, I've not seen definitive proof he used Force deflection to do such; and as noted previously, it could've been due to his armored hand.
Most likely people surmise that from this line in The Empire Strikes Back novel: "Before those bolts zipped halfway across the table, the Dark Lord had lifted a gauntlet-protected hand", among other various reasons I'm sure. Of course, I'm not saying it wasn't Force deflection, just stating for the record.
Another thing that really humors this argument is that the source you are oh so fond of, wikipedia, says Vader cannot deflect (or generate) Force lightning. I can't wait to see if you concede or contest, as if you contest then majority of your wiki arguments fail (and to make a preemptive strike: I didn't add that line in the article. If you check back all times of day, all times of night, every month, every hour - it'll still be there; just noting as I suspect some ridiculous assertion being tossed around to discredit my argument). But then again, in this instance, Wikipedia is correct, I'm astound to say. The RotS Visual Dictionary says the same.
Different attacks, different properties. It's said that it requires living hands to do such, not the artificial ones Vader carries. So, obviously, the qualifications for deflecting certain attacks vary. Why, I don't know. It just is.
No. Once again, the RotS Visual Dictionary explicitly states that he can neither conjure nor repel Force lightning. Repel, as in block, which then leads me to saying that Vader is incapable of doing such without the possibility of using a lightsaber.
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This paticular quote here has yet to be proven or be stated in any way that it is actually true, i doubt the gloves could have actually absorbed a bolt and especially when he gets shot several times.
In the movie, we see him dissipate the bolt, and in the novel, it claims that his glovesblocked it which is coming FROM the authors opinion and i doubt it has been made canon.
And if it is true that he really used force defelection, then the ultimate guide contradicts what has been shown in the movie.
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And there is lack of proof the show that he blocked it with his glove
Because that wiki simply copied it from the visual guide and the ultimate guide? Like i said before, several times at least that wiki rips quotes from books which are canon, even they mentioned that vader blocking bolts with his glove is speculation
Yes, it said required hands for both, But does it make a difference if he had really known force dissipate? which maked a layer around his palm?
I really dont know if he had used dissipate but i will search as much as i can
What exactly is your point? Can you read, or do you just like to attempt to rebut things that I've stated plain as day:
Nothing much will be earned through your reply, I see. I might as well also note that "your particular statement" of Vader using Force deflection has yet to be proved definitive, or be stated in the rest of the gibber jabber you say.
So, your point would be...?
He gets shot with a DL-44, to be exact. He survived a shot right to the head by Boba Fett, who's weapon has more power behind it than Han Solo's weapon. It is armor, after all.
Likewise, Darth Vader's gloves is referenced as being nearly indestructible in the first Jedi Prince novel (entitled The Glove of Darth Vader). So, again, not far fetched to say that it wouldn't be given any damage, and could take shots from at least Han Solo's weaponry.
1. Novels aren't "opinions". They are canon. Leland Chee states as much. If you can show me where it says "the author thinks" or "the author surmises" in the entire novel, then your asinine point is made.
I'll note that you will be hard pressed to find such, as movie novelizations are taled by an omniscient narrator.
2. What? First of all, the ESB novel doesn't even say for certain that he blocked it via just his armored hand, it's implied, but not known, as I already stated. I was just making mention, just like I'm doing now as you obviously overlooked that part.
3. You seem to imply that in the movie, we see the bolt disperse before it even comes close to Vader's hand, or whatever. If you really are implying that, then you need to watch the movie again and equip your spectacles.
Reviewing that scene carefully (pausing at each hit), it's shows the blasts "exploding" at a rather close range to where Darth Vader's hand is thrown up at (and by "rather close", I mean appearing at his palm). It really doesn't show the bolt evanish before it reaches his hand. So, your inference made on the scene isn't accurate to state as fact.
Han Solo shoots manages to fire off four shots before his gun is stripped away by Vader.
The first: explodes against at seemingly close range, explosion is far too wild to note if it reaches completely to his hand. Bad camera angle, too.
The second: You can literally see the bolt and its trail coming directly to his palm due to the camera angle (camera is behind Vader, pointing towards Han Solo). Going frame by frame, of course.
The third: Front view. Hard to tell due to explosion and angle Obviously comes close.
The fourth: Front view. Hard to tell due to explosion and angle. Obviously comes close.
Now, researching that scene, from what I clearly see (or rather don't see), doesn't indicate he used Force deflection a la Yoda or Kenobi in the microseries, or that the bolt stops before it reaches his hand, or whatever the hell you mean. So, that would mean that the whole "using the glove" to block the attack is still a possibility, as is Force deflecting them as well. It's not conclusive, however.
4. Furthermore, these rebuttals are quite ridiculous, tiresome, and as Janus or Illustrious might say, are being repeated ad naseum. "I doubt it has been made canon", well you have your doubts; they are wrong. Just because Vader can't repel Force lightning doesn't mean you need to pick at what little things you can.
The RotS Visual Dictionary states it, and gives the reason. Even the beloved source that you use, and say is "accurate" and "reliable" says the same thing (which again, if you ignore or contest puts quite the hinder on all the wiki arguments you've made; not that wiki even is a reliable source, but still). So, I'd advise you to quit this nonsense.
What "ultimate guide"? What the hell are you talking about? The RotS Visual Dictionary, you mean?
If so, then yet again - not surprisingly - you're wrong. How is it conflicting with what has been shown in the movies? Where has anyone with artificial hands blocked Force lightning via such? That's right: nowhere.
I've explained different things have different properties. Blaster bolts aren't Force attacks, specifically Force lightning. In addition to that, Force lightning has different attributes than other attacks, too. In addition to that addition, it's still theorized that Vader used his hand. Of course, neither explanation is definite, though.
Edit:
By the way, if you were referring to the ESB novel as the "ultimate guide" (for whatever, dumbass reason I can't think of), then it still doesn't contradict, as it's only an implication. Of course, that's still irrelevant to the main point. The main point which is Vader is incapable of blocking lightning - deflection or not - because it requires living hands.
Double case dealt with.
I probably should state before anything that absence of proof is not proof of absence. Now, there's obviously given reasons to assume that he used his gauntlet to do such. Listed above, of course, are a couple of them.
What the hell is your point, Yobbo?
I'm getting rather tired of this repeated bullshit fed to me. The RotS Visual Guide, which is canon, states it. That should have been the end of the discussion the first time I posted what it said.
What the hell is your point, Yobbo?
I never said the glove theorem wasn't speculation, as a matter of fact, I said the opposite, but of course as it would apply to the whole "glove" theory, it would apply to Force deflection as well.
Which was myentire point. By the way, if you meant to say "which aren't canon[ical]", then it's time to prove up, Yobbo.
What? The word "repel" is a simple one. In fact, this whole ordeal is a simple one at that. Let me show you:
Fact: Force lightning requires living hands to repel.
Fact: Vader has no living hands.
Conclusion: Vader cannot successfully disperse, or deflect Force lightning.
You've managed to make me write an entire two post essay on something that is even facile enough for a third grade moron, with the lowest grades in the class I might add, to understand. I wouldn't "argue for the sake of arguing" (as jollyjim had uninformatively said); especially against me.
Right, and what "case" are we talking about again? I've only seen you grasping for proverbially air to respond. Your case has been buried around the first time I decided to post; this isn't so much a "case" now, as it is an annoyance.
And I really don't mean to be rude (or arrogant, even) in my responses, but this really is just an argument going in a circle due to your unwillingness to accept things outright stated.
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Last edited by Advent on Nov 29th, 2006 at 06:47 AM
Please do not notify me on what I should do. I'm far more than an exceptional debater (not to boast, but in terms of KMC standards, I am), and you of all people know this. Why don't I prove it? Well, how can I prove something which a) isn't outright stated, and b) because of such, has another theorem; not inclusive of using his glove? Which, in essence, makes deducing such even harder.
Oh, yeah. Probably because it's nigh impossible to do such. A point you continue to miss, among basically every other.
Dude (using that term as in "seriously"), quite frankly, the line from the Visual Dictionary is "all you need to hear". My argument is backed up by sources, yours? None. In. Sight. That's referring to singularly the lightning arguments. As for the other (gauntlet/deflection), I've already stated about ten, maybe eleven times what my stance is, and what the situation really is. Which is unknown.
You obviously need to read what I wrote, because you continue to - again - grasp at proverbially air to reply to my rebuttals.
1. Just to encore what I said earlier, not to be rude, but I don't give a shit what you are convinced, or not convinced about. The whole "Force deflection vs. Glove" argument is irrelevant, because you need living hands to block Force lightning.
Moreover, I'm not even arguing that he used his glove to block it as a decisive reason. All that I was saying in that sub-point is that there is no viable evidence to suggest he definitely used Force deflection. Do you understand this yet? Or must I speak even more condescendingly?
2. To actually properly address the point, the line "may" only strengthens my argument. "May", meaning "possibly", goes back to my argument about how there is no absolute answer at this point.
Then again, it's from a fallible, third party source. Which is somewhat irrelevant to what I'm saying; nonetheless, there's still no absolute elucidation on the matter, which again was my entire point.
So, in closing, I'd just like to remind you that the only position I take on the matter of "Deflection v. Glove" is: neither (and I've implied that throughout every single post). At this point, at least. I doubt it'll be further expanded upon anyways, but just to clarify as you continuously seem to imply that my arguments are alluding to the "gauntlet theory" being the correct answer.
And again, the argument goes ad infinitum. Do you see what I'm saying yet?
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Nov 27th, 2006 07:33 AM
