Morgoth: Became evil by being evil.
Sauron: Used to be a maiar that was twisted by Morgoth.
Saruman: A good wizard gone bad in his attempts to claim the Ring and by Sauron.
Ungoliant: A maiar that was corrrupted by Morgoth and became a giant spider that destroyed the Trees of the Valar.
Shelob: Daughter of Ungoliant, not evil, but hostile
-sauron-you can talk about ungoliant i just put a FEW examples up there...not ALL of the forces of evil...
does anybody know how long saruman was evil?...like when he first became evil?.....
Sauron...i wonder what would have happend if Aule hadn't shown him his smithing talents?...Sauron would have found some other way to enslave the free peoples...
Morgoth:...all he wanted to do was share some of his own music....sure it was a little diferent then Iluvatar's...but so?...he just wanted to make something that he could call his own that people would sing and say:"oh yeah Melkor wrote that one"...but to others it sounded distorted and uncordinated they couldn't except it...you know the rest...eventually Melkor is cast down with some of his followers...and he begins to wreck havoc on Beleriand...no mater how hard the Light side work to rebuild his destruction...he persist to the end...
...it interests me that even after all he did they unchained him for a time...his sly words of deciet that he used so often to trick and insnare people...he used for his freedom he thru around promises and vows...saying he would help them and that he had given up on evil...but can a person realy change?...once they have been corupted?...Gollum seemed to come prety close but he still couldn't he was still evil at heart...Once you have become a vilan...murderer...thief...lyer...ect..is there any hope for you?...can you change?...if you could change would you even WANT to?...now that you have crossed over does the world of light seem to vauge...to distant...i think your mind would be so converted that you might just forget all that you once loved and adored...abandoning reason for madness...so to speak so that your darkness takes over completely..and you don't even want to go back...and then help is beyond YOU...and you must depend on others to bring you back...it is SO VERY easy to become a servant of darkness but its very difficult to come back to the light...
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in regards to Gollum, IMO he never was truly evil from the start, maybe full of malice and mischief but not evil...and quite possibly the reason why Gollum gave in at the end was because more than likely he had no will of his own to overcome his overwhelming desire for the ring...it's like a smoker who wants to quit in a sense...he more or less became a slave to the ring and all his actions and willpower was governed by the ring itself...
As for Morgoth(one of my favorite char. btw)...he truly was not evil but full of pride and the attitude to go with it for the fact that he had a power of each Ainur in the beginning...depending on which version you read of Tolkien's work...he was afterall the mightiest of all the Ainur...And in a way, if I've read the early works and the Sil, and I like to think I did, Morgoth did care for the fate of Arda and of the first born yet to come when he and all the others saw them in the beginning...
Even if he did go about it differently than, say Manwe...But he did care for them in his heart...But again, he was full of pride and jealousy and greed, because in the end he did want to rule all and be the first king of Arda...However, he was not stupid that no matter how powerful he was and what resources and strength he may have, Morgoth knew he was no threat to Eru, so he wanted ME for himself...even if he did forget that no matter what he did or willed, it's source still did come from the one...
which makes you wonder if Eru is evil...
The Valar were capable of great good, but not evil...Morgoth succumbed to being evil and lost all goodness...Iluvatar is capable of encompassing both good and evil at the same time...So the question is, who's the greater evil?
I will or may continue later with Saruman and Sauron...
*fingers tired from typing too much* 😛
Melkor when he was first created was given, like the rest of the Ainur, that which we call "Free Will". That is he could make choices within certain limitations. But when he "sprung from the thought of Iluvatar" he must have had some darkness within him. This darkness can only have come from Iluvatar himself as all that the Ainur were in the begining came from the One. Melkor was not the only Ainu to be possesed of this darkness.
For Manwë was free from evil and could not comprehend it, and he knew that in the beginning, in the thought of Ilúvatar, Melkor had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever. But Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by; for if Tulkas is slow the wrath he is slow also to forget.
So we have Manwe who "was free from Evil and could not comprehend it" while Ulmo "was not deceived" and Tulkas who "is slow to forget". Both Ulmo and Tulkas had to have some darkness within to understand the Darkness of Melkor, while Manwe had no darkness as is shown by his complete lack of understanding of Melkor.
So in the beginning, all of the Ainur were of different parts of Iluvatar, some light, some dark, most inbetween. All then had chances to grow and choices of how to grow. Melkor decided to go alone into the Void and to conceive thoughts unlike the rest of the Ainur. This was his choice and the path he chose.
In saying this, he could not have chosen this path unless he had darkness from Iluvatar in the first place, Manwe could not have chosen to walk this as he had not the means of considering it. So they seem to have the opposite ends of Iluvatar's spectrum of thought in Melkor at the Darkest and Manwe at the lightest with all the rest somewhere in between. So Melkor was made in the beginning the greatest of the Ainur and was also given the greatest freedom of action to decide his path. Manwe although only slightly less powerful was given almost no freedom. Then Iluvatar gave the Ainur themes to improvise about, something like a map with a start and an end but no paths. The paths were then given in the Music made by the Ainur. It was at this point that Melkor started to show what he had done with the freedom allowed him by Iluvatar in that he wove into the music discords and thoughts that were not in tune. Iluvatar used Manwe to fight against all that Melkor did.
So in my opinion Melkor was not Evil by Nature, he was dark by nature but had the freedom to choose his path. His darkness would tend to push him toward Evil however. Manwe on the other hand was there to put limits on Melkor, he had no other purpose. When the thoughts of Melkor went too far, Iluvatar would start a new theme using his puppet Manwe.
Conclusion:
Melkor - Dark by nature, Evil by choice.
Manwe - Light by nature, Puppet by no choice.
🙂
very good post s-b😄
it is very interesting that melkor couldn't have had evil unless iluvatar GAVE it to him...why do iluvatar allow evil to happen?hmmm...???very perplexing...
heres another:
Osse the maiar vassal of ulmo, lord of the seas:...
melkor attemted to corrupt him...he promised him ALL the seas that ulmo had control of if he would swear allegiance to Melkor...
As a result osse raised a great tumult in the seas that threatend M:E....
Fortunately Aule...prayed to Uinen...Uinen restrained him and Osse repented to Ulmo...and made a vow to him....
although he still likes to bring up the waves sometimes for mariners for fun...so he still retained some of his evil
Originally posted by Smodden
why do iluvatar allow evil to happen?hmmm...???very perplexing...
Perhaps Eru did not intentionally MAKE Melkor Evil, he had only darkness within him when he sprung from the mind of Eru, but it doesn't mean that he's Evil..but has the tendency to be Evil. However, I think Eru rather LET him be Evil ( an important thing to remember here is that Eru gave to the Ainur independent wills and thoughts, for he wanted to see his creation grow) He knew what all would happen, but yet he allowed it. Like mortals, we are not meant to know why these things happen. For why did God cast Satan down to Earth rather than destroy him?
It is illogical to assume that good would exist without evil. For can light exist without dark? For everything there is a positive and a negative.
Eru knew that Melkor would wreck havoc upon Middle-Earth and its inhabitants, but he allowed to it. Why you may ask? You might as well ask why do our loved ones die, or why there are mass murders and world wars where women, children, and the elderly are brutally slaughtered. Possibly, to teach us all a lesson which may save us all one day, or to give us an understanding into something that may be worth it for the greater good.
In any case, there is always something bigger and better than us in charge of affairs that we as mortals in our short lives and two-dimensional vision do not comprehend and very likely can't comprehend.
Light and Darkness, Death and Life, each is necessary for the other to exist. I am just thankful that someone who knows much more than me and is greater than us all is in charge. For who are we to question the ways of things that we do not even understand? Light and Darkness, Death and Life, Good and Evil; each must be in balance and each must exist.
Eru let Melkor be evil so that Middle-Earth would become what it was. Without his influence, things would be much different. Better you might say? Perhaps, but we do not know that. Perhaps without the influence of this Vala, a greater evil would have happened that is even way beyond what we could imagine.
🙂
i was goin to say what sauron said, ungoloint (drunk spelling), is more cooler, the fat thing never stops eating mwahaha
anyways, Morgoth was said the first evil, i think that is the reson what influenced the others to follow, they thiunk the dark side will always win and they want to have their share of ruling the world once the dark side always wins...however i cant recall a book or movie where this has occured
Discos - drunk, ya dig?
Let's see...I believe these are most of the Maiar enlisted with Melkor/Morgoth, not bred by him.
-Gothmog, Lord of the Balrogs and Captain of Angband
-Ungoliant the great spider, devourer of light
-other Balrogs
-and of course, Sauron
There are, of course, many other forces of Evil, but couldn't necessarily be considered as Maiar like...
-Watchers (various)
-Fellbeasts
-Wereworms of the East
-Great Spiders
-Ordinary Wolves like Carcharoth
-heh..Tevildo the Cat. 😖hifty:
I'm not sure whether these are Maiar or not:
-Thuringwethil the Vampire, the "Lady of Shadow"
-other Vampires
-Drauglin the Werewolf, Lord of Tol-in-Gaurhoth
Ungoliant may have been a Maia, but we cannot tell for sure from the brief description. All we really know is that, according to Elf legend, she crept into Arda from the darkness outside (I don't have my books handy, so I can't give the exact quote).
Dragons are said to have been created by Morgoth, but they may have been inhabited by Maia spirits, since Morgoth (as with all the Valar) could not create sentient life himself. Much the same, I should imagine, goes for Vampires and Werewolves.
I would doubt, however that Watchers were Maiar. They seem far more like beasts and, as such, are more likely to have been created and/or corrupted by Morgoth. And as for the great Spiders, even if Ungoliant was a Maia, I very much doubt that her Arda-born offspring would have been.
I'm not sure about the Werewolves, since apparently they were technically bred by Morgoth. Not like orcs, but similar. The werewolves were...
[quote]"Werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he (Sauron) had imprisoned in their bodies."[/i]
The Silmarillion, "Of Beren and Luthien"
Then again, it could have been Maiar spirits that inhabited their bodies, it could also have been different.
About Vampires, Christopher Tolkien, in one of his notes I tracked down, speculates that "Vampires like Thuringwethil, being thus able to transform into a bat-like creature and fly aloft, were presumably Maiar or some such being." Also, both the Encyclopedia of Arda and Atlas of Middle-Earth (at least relatively respectable volumes of Tolkien, but not written by him) state that the Vampires either were Maiar, or something close to being Maiar.
At the end, we are not sure whether the Vampires and the Werewolves are Maiar or not.
The only Maiar that we can say for sure were persuaded by Morgoth to his cause are, Sauron and the Balrogs. Of the Balrogs, only Gothmog was named, although there are others individually identified (Durin's Bane and the Balrog which Glorfindel (of Gondolin) fought).
As for the other obvious cases, (Orcs, Trolls, Fellbeasts, etc.) I wouldn't explicate them further. 😉
Very touching post s-b...🙂
now to brake it down...
Originally posted by shadowy_blue
Hhmm..God/Eru could create a perfect Utopia where a bunch of mindless zombies always did good. Even a good programmer can do that. Instead, Eru created something much more incredible. He created a world where people had free will.
of course...if there were no evil there couldn't be any good...because we would all be neutral...😄It is illogical to assume that good would exist without evil. For can light exist without dark? For everything there is a positive and a negative.
Eru knew that Melkor would wreck havoc upon Middle-Earth and its inhabitants, but he allowed to it. Why you may ask? You might as well ask why do our loved ones die, or why there are mass murders and world wars where women, children, and the elderly are brutally slaughtered. Possibly, to teach us all a lesson which may save us all one day, or to give us an understanding into something that may be worth it for the greater good.
In any case, there is always something bigger and better than us in charge of affairs that we as mortals in our short lives and two-dimensional vision do not comprehend and very likely can't comprehend.
[B]Light and Darkness, Death and Life, each is necessary for the other to exist. I am just thankful that someone who knows much more than me and is greater than us all is in charge. For who are we to question the ways of things that we do not even understand? Light and Darkness, Death and Life, Good and Evil; each must be in balance and each must exist.Eru let Melkor be evil so that Middle-Earth would become what it was. Without his influence, things would be much different. Better you might say? Perhaps, but we do not know that. Perhaps without the influence of this Vala, a greater evil would have happened that is even way beyond what we could imagine.
🙂
thanks s-b...
EVIL 😱
I always wondered about the "goals and intentions", as Smodden said it, of Evil - ok for Morgoth it's quite clear, he wants might, he wants power, he wants to rule the world. Same for Sauron.
But why? Why the hell are there always people who want to rule?? Is there any personal advantage for them when they are the Lord over Lands they have never seen, they never went to, that aren't even paying taxes?? Is this ambition?
I also wonder what the personal goal of, for example, Dragons or Balrogs is, besides surviving. Why do they fight in battles?
Because they are commanded to do so?
They fight neither for plain surviving nor for freedom nor for so-called [self-]justice nor for anything they admire, they fight just for their Lord though they probably hate him.
Is it fun for them to kill?
😄 at least she does have a reason ^^ SHINEY! 😱
... unlike for example Dragons (ok they want gold 🙄 but why kill random soldiers when there would be so pretty fortresses and treasuries? - obviously it took the dragons until the end of the second or even the third age to realize that 🙄 ) or the already-named Balrogs.