Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
I think Jack is more her idol than her mentor because he doesn't really take a proactive approach in making her a pirate. He sits back and knows she has it in her. I say he's more her idol because she still believes in having a "moral center." Just because she wants the adventure and freedom of a pirate doesn't mean she wants to start killing and pillaging. Then she meets Jack and here is the kind of person she wants to be: someone adventurous and free and full of mischief, but hasn't sacrificed their morals. That's part of why she so intensely tries to make him see he's a good person, because if he's not, then no pirate is, and that would destroy her fantasy.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
yeah I agree with you...Jack is like the perfect pirate for her.
when he shows it and her feelings escalate..the biotch royally freaks out..I saw it coming from the second she looked scared/angry at what the compass was telling her about how she feels towards Jack.
What I notice with this is that a "fake mentor/messenger" appears to set them off on the false journey and when they meet Tia, the real one begins.
Jack = bootstrap
Liz = Jack and the compass for Will
Will = Beckett
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
AHh so where is Jack at here then?..IMO its hard to tell there appears to be elements of all these steps mixed up together when Jack comes back to the pearl lol: I'm trying to decide if the black moment was where we see Jack give up on every one it felt like jack went and DIED on us..that was really depressing and then we see him arrive and its like "OMG JACK IS BACK!! look at the bravery!" thats what I call a rebirth!..Also I think will is a consequence for Jack gaining Liz as a reward...and so is the kraken returning..IMO the fear was facing Liz he faces it and he has to suffer the consequences of that too and her chaining him up kinda does that..she's not ready to be with him yet...IMO Jack's supreme ordeal was him just returning to the ship because Liz was on there the reward he wants..he faced death and blew him up..THEN it became a consequence to Jack
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 28th, 2006 at 08:22 PM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
sacred marriage?? Liz literally ties him down and MAKES him treat her as an obligation which imo he was going to do ANYWAY but that just symbolised the sacred marriage between the two before the movie ends its like the Leia/ Hans "I love you!" "I know!"..lucasisnt too good with symbolic things lol he just states the obvious out loud.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 28th, 2006 at 08:34 PM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
Oh OH!!
Jack seems to gain this with the Kraken after kissing Liz like that..he's come back for her once shown bravery..she caused that bravery in him..but then he appears to want to stay but the confidence is lacking then she kissis him and its like WHOAH:
Step 9:
"Sometimes the "sword" is knowledge and experience that leads to
greater understanding and a reconciliation (squaring off) with hostile forces."
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 28th, 2006 at 08:52 PM
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
"The hero may also be reconciled with a woman. Often she is the
treasure he's come to win or rescue, and there is often a love scene
or sacred marriage at this point. Women in these stories (or men if
the hero is female) tend to be SHAPE-SHIFTERS. They appear to
change in form or age, reflecting the confusing and constantly
changing aspects of the opposite sex as seen from the hero's point
of view. The hero's supreme ordeal may grant him a better
understanding of women, leading to a reconciliation with the
opposite sex."
That's so interesting about the shape-shifting part, because Liz and Jack both did 180s in DMC. I wouldn't go so far as to say they made the change because of the other. They always had those traits, but it was the other person who brought them out. Liz couldn't really win Jack's heart until she showed him her other side as a pirate, and he couldn't really win hers until he showed her his good side.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
yeah I agree with you he's like her shape shifter..they are like the other side of one another but they also reprosent themsleves if that makes sense.
I honestly dont think Jack dying in movie 2 was the black moment cuz we all know he's coming back..to me it was the moment where he basically left them all on the pearl like a right little coward..I felt like Jack had died on us the character of Jack was dead to me at that moment.. then he has his rebirth where we see thast godlike shot
its like YES Jack is BACK and he's gonna kick some ass!
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 28th, 2006 at 09:33 PM
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
Yeah, I agree that his black moment was ditching them. He never did anything that low in the first movie, but he knew he was a good person at heart. See, I think this is where we disagree because you say this is where he is made consciously aware that he's in love with Liz. I don't think so. Words can get to a person without being in love with the one that said them. Her words are echoing back; he is a good man and a chance has come to do what is right. Even if he did do it for her, he can always fool himself that he did it because it was right and he didn't want to lose the Pearl, because he does love the Pearl.
I think the conscious "Oh my gosh, I'm in love with this woman" moment comes when she chains him. They're completely alone and now he's had a taste of the passion she brings out. Psychologists say true love really exists of three components: intimacy (meaning friendship, closeness), committment, and passion. Well, Jack and Liz are certainly friends, close friends. They are committed to one another because Jack was willing to throw his life away for her (and everyone on that ship in my opinion) and Liz is willing to go to the ends of the earth looking for him. All that was needed was the passion and he got more than he bargained for with that kiss. There could be no excuses he could make for not yelling out when she chained him, no reason to smile, no reason to beg for her to kiss him again. So I don't know. I guess I'm rambling.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
well IMO he protected her because he cares for her and its on a deeper level than a friendship by this point. he's made the emotional tie to her already he accepted the first threshold and he had his tests where he has to learn the rules of the special world which he does (curiosity scene, persuade me scene, Jar of dirt etc) IMO the love did come when he went back for her because of the bravery we saw..all of a sudden his compass is pointing to something and we then see him basically transform as a person when he gets back there and who is the person he first bumps into?..IMO that bravery came because he wants to protect the one he loves instead of clinging on to his own safety all the time and material possessions..the jar of dirt taught him that they aint that great..there's beter things in life..also remember what Ted said his reason was for returning to the pearl? on boxofficemojo.com He went back because he wanted to Make an obligation to someone..and its what caused Liz to do that to him at the end of DMC so it was her he went back for and she freaked out..IMO that godlike shot was the "herald" for Elizabeth calling her to be with Jack and she refused it
IMO gibbs line Abandon ship or abandon hope got to both Liz and Jack in a different way because of the different stages they are on.
IMO Jack was ready and willing to face the consequence of gaining Liz..but the fact he had to leave her was paining him.
and Liz takes it as another thing that scares her.."abandon Jack or abandon hope"
firstly he tells Gibbs to abandon ship and he says "but Jack the pearl?" then Jack says "she's only a ship mate"..this causes Liz to hesitate and say "he's right we have to head for land"..IMO here she shows a bit of fear again because Jack is just constantly showing her that his priorities have changed firstly coming back, secondly showing less care for the pearl and she knows its because of her IMO (curiosity scene)..then we get Will talking and there is a shot to establish Jack staring at Elizabeth..IMO he's just taking her in one last time before she leaves..then we get Gibb's line..look at the pain in his face as he says it..IMO that pain is because Liz is going to now leave him whilst he stays for her.
IMO he's still a bit annoyed wih his honest streak..but then when Liz becomes his..he learns to love it.
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 29th, 2006 at 12:00 PM
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
in the curiosity scene she basically said to Jack "one day you will get the chance to be a good man and you will want to gain the rewards that follow (her)". and she realises that he came back for her more than anyone, she is what gave him that boost of bravery IMO..he was considering going back anyway but looked terrified..he looks at the compass and looks surprised at what its pointing to..its telling him "GO AND GET LIZ!!" because he wants her in his life..then we see him amazingly brave but she's not really ready to accept it yet becase she she is at the reluctant hero stage...so she does the selfish thing and refuses the man who needs her in his life just so she can be safe and return to the ordinasry world...although Jack doesnt see it like that lol
Last edited by LovelyOne on Sep 29th, 2006 at 12:19 PM
Ok, I agree with all the steps that have been established and we have some truly exceptional writers and imaginers on this site, but I have one
question about "Jack needs to take his elixir home." I thought that the Pearl was his home and that's what he has been trying to get back all these years. Now, he has Lizzy and he has the Pearl before the last scene with the Kraken.
I am sorry, I just can't get this resolved in my head and I know this sounds stupid lol.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
Good point. I would say that he is separated from Liz and the Pearl right now. I think we'll see the Pearl again, but I think the "bringing the elixir home" has to mean that Jack and Liz end up together and sail off into the sunset. It's more a metaphorical home, like everything is at last how it should be.
I really think Jack coming back to the Pearl is more of a symbol that he is finally accepting WHO HE IS.
He kept telling Liz that he was a pirate, and all evidence was against him being a good man. Now, we all know from past info that he IS a good man at heart, but he is dead convinced he is NOT a good man, and even tries to keep that persona, and make people think he IS quite a villian.
So when he is rowing away from the ship, i imagine his thought process is, I'm proving Elizabeth wrong, because I am a bad man, just a pirate...
but of course, he is lying to himself, and finally he realizes as much as he HATES to admit it, he IS a good man. And he has to accept who he is and act accordingly.
And the look Elizabeth gives Jack when everyone is loading the boat, Jack has his back to her, and she is about to walk towards him, is clear as day. "I was right. You ARE a good man. And you know what? You were right about me too..."
i know we keep re-hashing this, but i think Jack going back is more about his personal journey than it is about Elizabeth.
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
I think so too, Kate. If she weren't on the Pearl, I think he would have gone back to save the rest of them. He's a good guy overall and was before he met Liz, so it's not like she has him on a leash and he'll only be good for her.
That's why I don't think that's the part where he realizes how in love he is. It's the kiss. It's the aftermath that now they're alone. There is no excuse for just accepting what she's doing to him and ENJOYING it. "Pirate" will be as famous as Han Solo's famous "I know" from Empire Strikes Back.
so true. and dare i say "pirate" might be hotter than Han's amazing "I know."
i definately would say Jack is in love at this point--- or extremely close. Its all a bit more obvious with him, from hints in 2 to spoilers for 3. i think its a sure thing that Jack really, really cares for Elizabeth.
its Elizabeth i just dont know about. i would set her down as a very fiercly loyal person. i just dont know if she will ever get to the place where she can let Will go. i Just dont know. things dont seem as obvious with her. she still seems very much after Will or something. or perhaps she is just trying to cover while she figures herself out. i dont know.
Gender: Female Location: Giving dirty Mr Sparrow a sponge ba
1) THE HERO IS INTRODUCED IN HIS ORDINARY WORLD.
Most stories take place in a special world, a world that is new and
alien to its hero. If you're going to tell a story about a fish out
of his customary element, you first have to create a contrast by
showing him in his mundane, ordinary world. In WITNESS you see both
the Amish boy and the policeman in their ordinary worlds before they
are thrust into alien worlds -- the farmboy into the city, and the
city cop into the unfamiliar countryside. In STAR WARS you see Luke
Skywalker bored to death as a farmboy before he takes on the
universe.
2) THE CALL TO ADVENTURE.
The hero is presented with a problem, challenge, or adventure.
Maybe the land is dying, as in the Arthur stories about the search
for the Holy Grail. In STAR WARS again, it's Princess Leia's
holographic message to Obi Wan Kenobi, who asks Luke to join in the
quest. In detective stories, it's the hero accepting a new case.
In romantic comedies it could be the first sight of that special --
but annoying someone the hero or heroine will be pursuing/sparring
with the remainder of the story.
(bwa hahahah..this is when Liz's feelings for Jack are really called into question after he comes back for her)
3) THE HERO IS RELUCTANT AT FIRST.
Often at this point, the hero balks at the threshold of adventure.
After all, he or she is facing the greatest of all fears -- fear of
the unknown. At this point Luke refuses Obi Wan's call to adventure,
and returns to his aunt and uncle's farmhouse, only to find they
have been barbqued by the Emperor's stormtroopers. Suddenly Luke is
no longer reluctant, and is eager to undertake the adventure. He is
motivated.
4) THE HERO IS ENCOURAGED BY THE WISE OLD MAN OR WOMAN.
By this time many stories will have introduced a Merlin-like
character who is the hero's mentor. In JAWS it's the crusty Robert
Shaw character who knows all about sharks; in the mythology of the
Mary Tyler Moore Show, it's Lou Grant. The mentor gives advice and
sometimes magical weapons. This is Obi Wan Kenobi giving Luke
Skywalker his father's light sabre.
The mentor can only go so far with the hero. Eventually the hero
must face the unknown by himself. Sometimes the wise old man is
required to give the hero a swift kick in the pants to get the
adventure going.
5) THE HERO PASSES THE FIRST THRESHOLD.
He fully enters the special world of his story for the first time.
This is the moment at which the story takes off and the adventure
gets going. The balloon goes up, the romance begins, the plane or
spaceship blasts off, the wagon train gets rolling. Dorothy sets
out on the Yellow Brick Road. The hero is now committed to his
journey... and there's no turning back.
6) THE HERO ENCOUNTERS TESTS AND HELPERS.
The hero is forced to make allies and enemies in the special world,
and to pass certain tests and challenges that are part of his
training. In STAR WARS, the cantina is the setting for the forging
of an important alliance with Han Solo, and the start of an
important enmity with Jabba The Hut. In CASABLANCA, Rick's Cafe is
the setting for the "alliances and enmities" phase, and in many
westersn it's the saloon where these relationships are established.
The tests and challenges phase is represented in STAR WARS by the
scene of Obi Wan teaching Luke about the Force, as Luke is made to
learn by fighting blindfolded. The early laser battles with the
Imperial Fighters are another test which Luke passes successfully.
(all explains what Liz is doing IMO..during the end of DMC and in AWE..actually accepting Jack comes much later..or at least it should..it did for Jack)
Last edited by LovelyOne on Oct 5th, 2006 at 05:09 PM
Gender: Female Location: at the second star to the right
It's so great how these amazing adventures series draw such parallels. It would be nice if Jack and Liz get to share a passionate kiss like Leia gets to enjoy with Han after she rescues him from the carbonite.
KMC Community Forums
Sep 27th, 2006 02:32 AM
which imo he was going to do ANYWAY but that just symbolised the sacred marriage between the two before the movie ends 
