You said this already. However, there was nothing in that fight that indicated he wasn't fighting effectively and doing very well for himself. I pointed out how G.G. has done against better jedi such as Mace, yet Kanobi methodically picked him apart. he found no such openings against Anakin. So even with your conjecture about his state of mind it's clear through the canon movie that Anakin fought very well and was using his anger at Kenobi to try and kill him. The fight proved it didn't have any effect on his fighting ability.
With you, you probably mean the plural, because you haven’t asked me personally once for a source.
Anakin doesn’t seem to know what he wants, first he only appears to want to save Padmé but then he suddenly wants to overthrow the chancellor and rule the galaxy… By the way, can anyone tell me where his sudden need for ruling the galaxy comes from? Or as a matter of fact, why did he conclude that the Jedi are the absolute evil? Mace trying to kill the Ultimate Sith Lord can’t be the reason why he suddenly thinks Jedi are the incarnation of hell’s creatures. If he’s absolutely sure of himself then he is the galaxy’s biggest moron.
Strong minded? I’ve discussed this with Gideon before, Anakin doesn’t seem to be so strong minded. He doesn’t seem to know what to think most of the times, acts like an infant when things don’t go his way and sometimes he’s pretty close to the brink of absolute stupidity.
Where has Obi-Wan said this again?
Well, he becomes a lot more experienced during the Clone Wars, so you can’t say he’s the same after three years when it comes to fights. The narration makes it pretty clear that Anakin was in complete control during his fight in RotS. There’s a huge difference between speculation and a logical deduction.
What I actually said was: “It's pretty obvious by just seeing the movie that Anakin wasn't a cold-hearted bastard. Like Lucien said, he was crying and yelling like an emotional unrational wreck.”
You said he was a cold-hearted bastard, but does a cold-hearted bastard cry and yell like ”an emotional unrational wreck”?
Well, the movie can’t spoonfeed everything, sometimes a movie expects the audience to draw the obvious conclusions themselves instead of having the character say: “Hey Kenobi, I’m emotionally conflicted right now, just so you’d know”. No, we have images like Anakin crying, choking his wife who he desperately tries to save and telling his best friend that he betrayed him. He just lost all that he cared about by Padmé not joining him. This actually is proof (G-Canon) that he was emotionally conflicted.
Well, if you don’t put your mind to something completely like he did with Dooku where he was just focusing on the duel, you tend to be less efficient at it. I’m not saying he was less powerful but he obviously wasn’t thinking clearly which lead to his defeat, so I’m pretty sure this would count as affecting his combat ability.
__________________ Imagination is more important than knowledge.
TJ, Just because something isn't spelled out within/by a canonical source, doesn't mean it isn't valid. Some things are just HEAVILY implied. Do I have a canon source backing me up? Just what I and a great many others are able to pull from watching RotS and reading the novelization. It's right there, it doesn't need to be spelled out word for word. Omission doesn't necessarily = something being non-existent/invalid.
__________________ “Life is tough, but it is tougher when you’re stupid.” -John Wayne
It didn't affect his skill level, but his thought process. Haven't you ever heard it's best not to fight in anger, that a clear head is needed? Anakin was using the Dark Side, definitely, but he did not possess a mind that was "clear as a crystal bell." He did not possess "clarity", as he had when he Zoned out on Dooku.
For the sake of neat outlining:
There's possessing a clear head.
There's possessing of a clouded mind fueled by the Dark Side.
There's possessing of a clear head fueled by the Dark Side.
That last one defines his "Zone" moment. The novel describes his clarity of mind paired with his fury. During the Mustafar duel, the man was not--NOT clear in the head. Thanosi may not be able to distinguish between torment/anguish and serenity, but I know you can.
I know I'll come off as a hypocrite, what with my spiel against Q99, but some things (such as facial features, tone of voice) are implications that just can't be ignored because there's noone from LucasArts to put it in to text for us. I'll keep going back to this: No one is ever mentioned as having a scrotum, but for f*ckssake, I refuse to be THAT stubborn.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Last edited by Lord Lucien on Sep 16th, 2010 at 12:37 AM
There are few who realize Canada's own Manifest Destiny will come about by talking America in to joining us. It's why our Mounties look so spiffing--makes people listen to 'em.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Urrgh.. all this emo talk about being emotionally conflicted and who was crying most leaves a foul taste in my mouth. Obiwan and Anakin are experienced warriors, naturally they have extensive training in retaining combat effectiveness under stress. Going by how the fight was shown in the movie, I`d say they both fought to the limit of their abilites (ignoring special cases like crystal mind or whatever SW call those zen-like concepts.) Anakin ulitmately lost because he attemptet that stupid leap, an act of overconfidence rather than grief.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
"The Daemon lied with every breath. It could not help itself but to deceive and dismay, to riddle and ruin. The more we conversed, the closer I drew to one singularly ineluctable fact: I would gain no wisdom here."
You're correct you do come across as a hypocrite. Nothing new there though. So you agree his combat ability wasn't diminished which has been the entire point i have made from the start. This notion that the only reason Kenobi won was because of Anakin emotional state is bs. Even with clarity I would still give Obi the majority. So you're correct on two fronts... first you're a hypocrite and have no narration to back up your speculation. Second, Anakin's combat abilities weren't diminished
You are annoying. Either you ignore what he's saying or you just don't get it. Where did he say that Anakin's combat ability wasn't diminished?
Where did anyone say that the only reason Kenobi won was because of Anakin's emotional state?
This is the real case of speculation. The only thing we know is that Vader with a clear head defeated Obi-Wan in ANH.
You always need narration to back up the obvious? You don't explain everything in a movie, like I said before, sometimes the movie asks you to think for yourself and draw the obvious conclusions yourself. It's not a movie for absolute idiots who need to be told everything because they can't think for themselves.
I could just repeat what the Canadian said about clarity of mind, but I'm starting to realise you're a wall.
__________________ Imagination is more important than knowledge.
It's like quoting Shakespeare to a Hershey bar: no matter how eloquent or refined you are, he's too thick and nutty to understand.
As it is, I've given up on that guy--he's too stupid. It's TJ I'm hoping will clue in.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
Umm, no. Obiwan allowed himself to be struck down.
It is also interesting to note that Vader at this point himself states he was "but a student" last time they fought.
Wiser now, even he himself has realized he was not all that.
__________________
Last edited by Mshinu on Sep 16th, 2010 at 10:56 PM
Lord Lucian and others have already said it a lot more eloquently but I'll throw my own two pennies in.
TJ, do you not know that one of the biggest rules in storytelling (movies, novels etc) is "SHOW, don't TELL"?
As pointed out before, we shouldn't need to have Anakin (or the writer) TELL us he's emotionally conflicted. The story SHOWS us this by his actions.
Seriously just use a little common sense. Put two and two together. As Slash said, you shouldn't need to be told everything. The writer trusts the reader/viewer to be able to figure stuff like this out without needing to have it spoonfed to them.
Okay, I know I'm probably wasting my time here, but what the heck.
No effect? Do you honestly think that believing his wife had betrayed him would have no effect on his mental state?
"HE KNEW she was alive..." Not the point. He was in turmoil because he believed she had betrayed him.
Let's employ a little common sense here.
In his fight with Dooku Anakin was focused on saving Palpatine and Kenobi. He had clarity and he had focus. That allowed him to channel his anger effectively rather than being overwhelmed by it.
Against Kenobi, he had no clarity. He believed that his wife had betrayed him and that wrecked his focus so that he was being overwhelmed by his anger rather than channelling it. Channelling one's anger is very different than having it consume them.
No, that view is sound common sense.
Again, our friend common sense tells us that someone who believes his beloved has betrayed him will be filled with turmoil and so be less effective than when he had a clear, focused mind and heart.
Last edited by chilled monkey on Sep 17th, 2010 at 01:33 AM
Sep 15th, 2010 09:32 PM
