Can RotS Palpatine speedblitz Darth Plagueis?

I had this debate once but it was inconclusive and I didn’t receive a notification for some reason so I forgot about it. Recently it popped back into my head so I decided to make a thread about it and make my case.

The notion of Revenge of the Sith Darth Sidious blitzing his Master Darth Plagueis stems from the former’s two duels with his apprentice Darth Maul. The first duel happened five years before The Phantom Menace, right before Maul was bestowed the title of Sith Lord. I will underline the relevant passages:

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next move, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck, he thought, I'm going to kill him.

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, "You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes," Maul grunted.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" Maul screamed through clenched teeth.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand. As Maul heard his lightsaber deactivete and clatter across the cave's floor, Sidious raised his own lightsaber and advanced. Maul knew he was about to die, but he did not cringe. As Sidious swung his lightsaber, Maul leaped forward, grabbing Sidious's wrist, and sank his teeth into his hand. Maul tasted blood and spat it back at Sidious.

-The Wrath of Darth Maul

As you can see, it would appear that Maul legitimately pushed Sidious near his limits. This is supported by a secondary source, too, stating that:

Maul's final test as a Sith apprentice occurred on an isolated Outer Rim World. Abandoned there by Darth Sidious, he was told that he had to survive on his own until Sidious returned a month later, all the while being hunted By hordes of deadly assassin droids. Maul fought as best as he could, but exhaustion and hunger finally took their toll, and one of the tireless droids finally wounded him badly enough that he felt he could not go on. At that point, Darth Sidious returned and challenged his apprentice to a lightsaber duel, telling Maul that he had secretly been training a second apprentice in case Maul failed his final test - which, by failing to kill Sidious in the final duel, he just had. Anger and hatred welled up in Maul, and he drew renewed strength from the dark side. Huring himself at Darth Sidious, he nearly bested his master with a flurry of deadly lightsaber blows. Sidious barely deflected them all.

-The Dark Side Sourcebook

I have heard it mentioned time and time again that Sidious was holding back, but I have never seen conclusive evidence for this. The exact opposite is alluded to in the above sources, which take precedence over all others. Among the reasons I have heard for Sidious holding back are:

1. "He was using a training saber."

This only means it was not in Sidious’ intent to kill his apprentice. It does not mean he was holding back in speed, strength or skill. I’ll need something more conclusive than that.

2. "It was just a test."

Yes, a test to see if Maul was willing to kill his Master and if he had what it takes to be a Sith Lord. None of that proves Sidious was holding back.

3. "Sidious had only began to tap into his reserves."

Yes, this should be obvious. Sidious has a feat of fighting for hours on end without breaking a sweat. He obviously hadn’t tired in a fight that lasted a minute at best. This does not mean that Sidious didn’t go all-out, though, as he did go all-out in his fight against the Kursid warriors, where fought on for hours. Him only beginning to tap into his reserves means his endurance, not power.

4. "Maul got disarmed very quickly."

He got disarmed by Sidious via Telekinesis, not dueling, as per Maul’s own journal. This is not valid evidence that Sidious was holding back in regards to lightsaber dueling.

Maul had also literally been fighting for his life for months against assassin droids and was extremely tired and wounded. He was also under a rage amp, which do not last very quickly. Maul was getting exhausted. It does not mean Sidious was holding back.

5. "Sidious was laughing at Maul."

Sidious was laughing at Yoda, too. Does that mean he was toying with Yoda? Of course not.

6. "Sidious holding back is heavily implied."

Where?

7. "Maul being on Sidious’ level is retarded."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

So yeah, not seeing it. Sidious was fighting at his fullest. How this ties into Plagueis is that Sidious at the time when he fought Maul had already replicated all of Plagueis’ skill and speed feats with a lightsaber. Therefore, they are equals in my mind. So Maul contending with Sidious means he can also contend with Plagueis and press the latter. I am not saying he’d win, but he’d put up a damn good fight if we take Maul’s exhaustion and wounds out of the equation.

Now we can move onto Sidious’ and Maul’s second fight in The Clone Wars. Specifically, the climax, after Savage is killed and Maul becomes enraged again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8uXBdCIsrU&t=2m45s

It should be notes that the subject that triggered Maul here is the exact same one that triggered him all those years ago: his apprenticeship under Sidious, specifically him being replaced by another. So Maul should be just as enraged here as in their first duel, and also more powerful, and in far better shape since he isn’t injured or exhausted. However, the result was not the same as last time. SW.com notes that:

And Fact File notes that:

So even in his enraged state – even more capable than when he pressed Sidious, a Plagueis-tier duelist – Sidious was still toying with him. In the novelization of the fight, it is shown what happens when Sidious goes all-out:

Maul looked up, saber in his grasp, and stared into Darth Sidious’s blazing eyes.

“Remember the first and only reality of the Sith,” Sidious said. “There can only be two, and you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced.”

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.

-Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

So there you have it. Palpatine blitzing a Plagueis-tier duelist (Note: I am not saying Maul is normally Plagueis-tier, only when he is enraged). Post your thoughts down below.

facepalm

Next thread by AZ: "Is Palpatine a more powerful focal point of the dark side than The Son?".

Originally posted by Azronger
Post your thoughts down below.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
facepalm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
facepalm

This.

And where is Temp when you need him.

canon vs eu

Originally posted by Beniboybling
facepalm

What did I do wrong? 🙁

The title should provide some clues. 🙂

Originally posted by Kurk
canon vs eu

Yes too much mixing and matching of these in his argument.

Except TCW was part of the EU before the Disney split, so that's bullshit.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The title should provide some clues. 🙂

I meant the argument itself. What do you disagree with?

Too many things to count, but most importantly, Palps was plainly holding back.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Too many things to count, but most importantly, Palps was plainly holding back.

Based on what?

Based on the source stating he barely begun to tap into his reserves by the end of the fight, which means he was holding back.

I already addressed that.

That justification relies on us accepting that a Force user can only reach a certain maximum level for whatever power they're using despite having reserves of Force energy left within them.

Other then that I can't find any gaping holes in your argument.

You brought up an example where Sidious held off some fodder for several hours without tiring, but failed to acknowledge that the fact they were fodder was why he didn't tire.

Now if that had been Anakin do you think things would have gone differently?

I already countered this... it's from Maul's perspective and Sheev was toying with him. It's literally outright said in the damn novel he didn't even try and Maul realized this. And before you say Sidious can fight hours without tiring: that is against utter fodder. It stands to reason if someone can actively pressure you, you'd need to draw more heavily on your reserves to combat them.

I mean, in the middle of Maul's rage-filled bloodlusted, Sheev stops fvcking around and casually moves too fast for Maul to see and slams him against a wall.

Only some bits are from Maul's perspective. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul's lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. and Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next move, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. for instance, are not. And the Dark Side Sourcebook certainly is not, so that whole point is moot.

And I'm pretty sure Mace was pressing Palpatine way harder than Maul ever was, being his equal and all, yet he was stated - or at least implied - to be able to fight Mace forever, so it would be an accurate deduction to say that he had only begun to tap into his reserves when the duel concluded. Does that mean he was holding back and capable of insta-stomping Mace via speedblitz any time he wanted? I doubt that. I don't see why Maul's case would be any different. He had only begun to tap into his reserves in the sense that he was not even close to exhaustion, not in the sense that he was holding back in speed or anything like that.

And the Dark Side sourcebook, IMO, puts this debate to rest. It literally states Maul nearly bested Sidious, and that Sidious was struggling to deflect his blows. Those are facts.