This enumeration is traced to Greek philosophy, being listed by both Plato and Aristotle.
However, the intention of this thread is to reach a consensus on which values we consider to be the 5 highest. We have to come to a decision unanimously. I hope opinions will differ, so you' ll have to consult each other, and reason to come to an agreement.
I am not driven by people’ s praise and I am not slowed down by people’ s criticism.
You only live once. But if you live it right, once is enough. Wrong. We only die once, we live every day!
Make poverty history.
I think 'consciousness' should be one them. Because most virtues are less likely to develop without some form of consciousness.
__________________ I am wrong more often than I am right. And when I am wrong I admit that I am wrong and that makes me right. Therefore I am always right!
I did not say it forms other virtues, I merely suggested that most other virtues will not be formed without at least some from of it. For example:
how could prudence, courage or justice exist without some form of consciousness?
But if that still conflicts with the true definition of a true virtue. then I will have no reason to disagree with you.
__________________ I am wrong more often than I am right. And when I am wrong I admit that I am wrong and that makes me right. Therefore I am always right!
I believe the five virtues that we find, or come to an agreement to, should be five virtues that help the person attain other virtues. For exmple, the top of my list virtue would be Charity. Because with Charity I can also excel in acceptance, compassion, cooperativeness, courteousness, fairness, fidelity, and so on...
I understand your point that those virtues need consciousness to even exist. But that does not actually make conciousness a virtue itself.
Consciousness occurs without our permission or desire. (unless you bring up suicide or self-induced brain damage, but for the sake of simplicity, let's not go there yet)
Any virtue is something that a person either wants to have or is proud to have developed. You can't WANT consciousness if you are already conscious, and you can't intentionally develop conciousness.
Sorry Lord Urizen! we must have been engaged in the art of arguing past each other, apparently you are arguing the "Phenomenal consciousness" while I am arguing the "access consciousness" which indeed is something to be proud of having developed.
All living creatures experience the phenomenal consciousness with no exception. but not all of them experience or develop "access consciousness". and even among humans some of us develop their "access consciousness" well beyond the rest of us. And that is because their own strong desire to do so. And yes! they could be proud of it and they should.
Albert Einstein and I have experienced the same exact phenomenal consciousness but he had a bigger desire and managed to develop his access consciousness well beyond mine above all in certain areas. And he was proud of it and so am I.
Do I still violate the true definition of virtue? or should we call it "stalemate"?
Always a pleasure to argue with smart people like yourself, it can only help me be smarter.
__________________ I am wrong more often than I am right. And when I am wrong I admit that I am wrong and that makes me right. Therefore I am always right!
Sorry. I was confused as to which "Consciousness" you were referring to.
I am not too familiar with the idea of Access Conciousness. Does it have to do with being able to access the subconcious or unconcious part of our mind, as oppose to only relying on our conscious mind?
I do beleive very strongly that a human being can acheive conciousness superior to the standard consciousness that we were all born with.
A virtue's true definition is almost irrelevent here. People take definitions of ideas and concepts all the time, and make it their own.
Perhaps I often to tap into my "Access Consciousness" without realizing it. I find that I often know things and form opinions without doing too much research on the specific subject first....perhaps I am accessing some sort of collective conciousness, going past my individual consciousness...ahh....im having a brain fart now lol
Ne ways, if you have developed your Access Consciousness, then yes you should be very proud, and it should definately count as a virtue as well.
First to address the thread topic: I've always considered Self-Sacrifice (giving of oneself, helping others) to be one of the highest--if not the highest--virtue, followed closely by Honesty.
That said and done...
"Access consciousness" (AC) is one of those terms which, depending on context, can have different meanings. In meditation circles, it refers to the first "opening up" of the mind to the next level (typically experienced as sharp, effortless focus accompanied by dream-like imagery), wherein solutions to problems or recognition of patterns is elucidated more clearly than in ordinary, linear, rational consciousness. One is accessing one's preconscious and subconscious.
But one doesn't have to meditate to access. One can access the deeper layers of the mind sometimes just by talking to it. For example: I like to write, but sometimes I can't find the right word / sentence / starting point. So I simply say something like, "Okay, subconscious, I need a word / sentence / starting point for this story." Typically, anywhere from a few minutes to several days later, what I was looking for will come to me, seemingly "out of the blue."
I would call AC more a skill than a virtue.
__________________
Shinier than a speeding bullet.
Phenomenal consciousness is what we all have as long as we perceive ourself as existing in an environment and our relation to it. It is the experience itself. Access consciousness is the the processing of the things in the experience to try to understand them and may be discover their meaning. And you definitely have no control over Phenomenal consciousness but you do have control over the development of access consciousness. and when you do you definitely could be proud. for example many people are conscious (aware) of death. we all have that experience. but some of us try to understand more about death: why and how does it happen? do we really need it? What would be the consequences, if there was no death and our resources are the same as they are now? should we cause it for another being? should we cause it for ourselves? .....
What I meant in my original post is: for example in order for you to have the virtue of Justice, you have to have some kind and level of rational thinking.You need to be able to relatively process correctly the information on which you will base your act of justice.
I hope this helps.... but you can definitely find more articulate articles about it if you search the net.
__________________ I am wrong more often than I am right. And when I am wrong I admit that I am wrong and that makes me right. Therefore I am always right!
KMC Community Forums
Jun 17th, 2006 02:33 PM
