Registered: Jul 2014
Location: Off learning Ground Realities
Honestly yeh it's 50/50.
Also complete aside, but the **** does it mean that 'each was defeated by their own slavery to the dark side of the force'? That's kinda the complete opposite of how Vader died.
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Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Except consistency is a thing, it's consistent with the other quotes he has and where he stands:
This last one is particularly notable because if we're talking about what a dark side nexus can do for Darth Malak. Well, Exar Kun is a nexus of dark side energy. Not only that, but one of the greatest Luke had ever faced. That's just Exar Kun as a spirit. Exar Kun in life would be an even stronger dark side nexus than that:
So Exar Kun being an extremely power living nexus of dark side energy, as well as having a quote stating he's the darkest power in the galaxy who's about to get even more powerful; which is itself, prior to another major power growth on Kun's part. Is actually a consistent portrayal of his character.
That's why I don't see a reason as to why Exar Kun being the most powerful dark side nexus; not just in the galaxy, but pretty much until the point of Luke's era of powerhouses, seems pretty much self-explanatory.
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Sidious = most powerful is like the single most replicated vs. accolade in Legends, lol. You can't in good faith say that Exar Kun being the "darkest power in the galaxy" is a more consistent accolade than the like dozen+ sources putting Sidious at the top, nor can you argue that Exar Kun > novel Vitiate is less incredulous than DE Sidious > Vitiate/Valkorion. It's blatantly a matter of liking Exar Kun and wanting to twist evidence to his convenience.
I mean, I'm trying to be nice to you but if you want I'll leave you to the remaining members who are willing to interact with you.
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3 of the quotes you're using are way before the introduction of Malak into Star Wars. 2 of them are about Luke specifically, and 1 of them is saying it's one of the greatest focal points of Dark Side energy he's had to face. Which doesn't exactly mean he's speaking about nexuses. It's saying the concentration focused in one spot is rich with the Dark Side (Exar Kun), not that he himself is the darkest nexus ever. If you focused the dark side entirety of Byss into one spot, it would have more focused DS energy than it would normally. Kun is a lot of focused Dark Side energy.
It also compares to what Luke has encountered as of 1997. It doesn't mean that Exar Kun is the most powerful dark side nexus until Luke's era. Holy shit. That's a huge non sequitur.
As for the one quote you have that actually came after Malak's introduction and therefore the Star Forge...
It's very possible that it's true. The issue with that, and by that I mean the quote:
Is that it doesn't actually cover Malak specifically. It does not override thinking Malak is above Kun. It doesn't of course mean that Malak surpassed him, it just means that anything after his death could have surpassed Kun. All it does is rule out anything before Kun's time being more powerful.
If I used that quote to say he got surpassed 40 years later by Malak, there's nothing there that indicates that's false. I wouldn't do that on its own, but I mean, you can't use that quote on its own to combat that claim.
Your quote does not cover Malak, or the Star Forge, simply put.
And also, it doesn't cover Vitiate either since that quote was before his creation. So you can't scale Kun above Vitiate and therefore Malak.
You've used a whole lot of nothing to try and substantiate a nothing quote in other words.
And even if it did, look at all the fukking "loopholes" you just used to try and say Kun was stated to be above the Star Forge. How exactly do you figure this is an easier way than the Malakun quote?
I have no problem assuming that better proof exists that could put Kun above Malak someway in the form of quotes, but you came at me like you had actual proof. What are you doing to me? I know you're going to try to apply more "proof", but this was your ace in the hole to prove your previous ace in the hole. You really need to take a step back and reexamine the evidence.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
Jesus Christ, how do you have this so weirdly twisted?
Exar Kun's consistent portrayal as a character is that he's up there with the all-time great dark-siders. A focal point and a nexus are the same thing, they're synonyms OBM.
Definition of nexus - a connection or series of connections linking two or more things, a central or focal point.
-Oxford Dictionary
I said he's essentially the greatest; besides no one but Tenebrae, who's confirmed to be the strongest, until Luke's era. I'm pretty sure that besides Tenebrae, Sheev and Kun; the only arguable living dark side nexus is Plagueis and possibly Revan.
The once the most powerful quote is actually debatable as to how far into the future the quote goes. It never says when he was surpassed. So one can't simply disregard it under grounds of ambiguity.
Again, the problem isn't that the 'darkest power' quote is out of date, as it were, because again this is consistent with the way he's depicted in all of his appearances. One debatable statement that's also itself outdated and is highly inconsistent with all of Kun's actual appearances is not negating all of that.
Until you definitively prove the Malak quote means one thing and can't possibly mean anything else, then I'm under no obligation to heed your claim.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Did you just use the Oxford dictionary of 'nexus' to try and explain what a force nexus was...?
I realize what a nexus is. That doesn't mean that him referring to Kun in that way means his Ghost was a walking nexus. Again, you're using a non sequitur to try and prove your point. This would be the time when you actually provide additional proof that Kun is by himself a nexus. Using a vague statement like that doesn't mean it fits into what Star Wars considers a Force Nexus. The fact that you did however, and didn't provide proof makes me think this is the only sort of statement made to that effect. Would I be wrong?
Is this the only "proof" that Kun is a Force Nexus and therefore the greatest Force Nexus for thousands of years (in combination apparently with "Darkest in the galaxy?'):
Now here's what we have to realize. Him calling him a focal point of Dark Side energy is technically true, Technically every force user is a focal point of Force Energy. While that helps substantiate other claims, that in itself doesn't necessitate a nexus. If it was common sense that he was a nexus, then this wouldn't be all there was. Which is my point. I'm addressing what you're giving me, and what you're giving me is not proving what you're saying. I'm not ruling out the potential, but you seriously have to prove it better than this.
If you want me to stop asking for proof, then stop making these claims. This began with you trying to say you had something that showed Kun was > Star Forge with less loopholes. You decided to try and use every loophole imaginable without actually using a quote that mentioned Malak and Kun in the same paragraph.
Also please don't accuse me of twisting things when you just used a quote that explained from Luke's point of view mind you, that Exar Kun was a focal point of Dark Side energy to try and say he was the most powerful Force Nexus - in combination with "Darkest in the galaxy" - up to Luke's era, and this implies above the Star Forge as well... before the Star Forge or many Force Nexuses were revealed and explained.
Also you know for a fact even if he was a Force Nexus that it isn't true anyway. Here is you from a couple days ago:
Why do those quotes "possibly" apply to the Star Forge but not Vitiate? Both quotes are well before Star Forge/Vitiate, and after their appearances in the timeline?
Or could it be that there's no actual correlation and you're just posting it for "no reason"?
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But everything you're showing proves he was the greatest. That in itself does not mean he's unsurpassed. Again, that in itself does not prove he was retroactively above later events.
If you argued this flawlessly, you would have established a history of power, but why do you think that a history of power before other characters are introduced in real life, and later in the timeline means anything when you actually lack the evidence to prove he's above another character?
What you did here is talk a big game about a quote that directly put Kun above the Star Forge. You did not actually produce or even come close to such a claim, and now you think trying to prove Kun's history of power somehow substantiates a false claim that doesn't exist?
Not only that but your quotes are before Malakforge's inception. If you want the quotes to retroactively apply to the Star Forge, then just say it. Not only are you being a hypocrite, but you're also creating a massive mess of the arguments applied direct to you... and I think you know this. In this case the ends do not justify the means.
So stop skirting around the fukking issue. The quotes do not in anyway EVEN IF KUN WAS A NEXUS apply to the Star Forge. Stop playing coy like they have relevance.
Again, I am not arguing Malak vs Kun. I am arguing with what you perceive as proof of statements. You're not actually proving any of these statements apply in any way. You would literally at this stage be better off comparing Kun to Sidious than what you're doing. You're pretending you're about statements... but you aren't really abiding by them...
I never said it wasn't debatable. The problem is - and I don't think you understand - is that it doesn't actually state he was above Malak. It doesn't state he stayed unsurpassed. It doesn't state it took this long to surpass him. It doesn't even state that he got surpassed (which we know he did via Sheev so don't even play stupid). It just said once. That's not an absolute statement that bellows through the annals of history.
That just means that once he was the most powerful. That's it. That statement doesn't prove or deny that he stayed the best after death. It doesn't prove anything because it doesn't cover him after death. There were lots of "once" Sith Lords. That has no merit on the future unless they were specifically stronger than someone who came after.
I'm not disregarding on the grounds of ambiguity; it just doesn't mean a fukking thing. That's the problem.
Saying it's "debatable how far into the future it goes" only means that it didn't state that he surpassed Malak. Did it state he surpassed Malak? No. Then what merit does it have in trying to use it as a statement to show he surpassed Malak?
Look, I'll use an example of why that quote fails:
Could you use that quote on its own with no additional context to prove Exar Kun is above Darth Bane? I know he's above Darth Bane, you know he's above Darth Bane, but nothing in that quote by itself shows he is actually above Darth Bane.
I'm pretty sure this is a textbook example of a non sequitur.
It is literally out of date if it came before Malak's creation.
It was consistent with the way he was depicted before Force Nexuses were expanded on, and a ton of shit came later, yes. That changes nothing.
The debatable statement is not outdated, it's just old. It directly applies to Kun and Kun had done pretty much everything he's ever done up to that point in time.
It's a "debatable" statement, but it's not outdated in the same way Kun's statement is. One was before many many other things were invented. One was in a direct contrast to Kun. Nothing in Malak's article actually got "retconned" as it were, while large parts of the Kun statements did.
It's not inconsistent either. It's not downplaying Kun or making Kun into something he's not. It's piggybacking off of Kun and saying "This guy is even more powerful". It's giving Kun props while wanking the shit out of Malak.
Again, this highlights a reason why you should stay away from that quote in the first place. You don't understand why it shouldn't count, and you think just throwing the kitchen sink at it should discount it. Honestly, you'd be better off just to say fuk that quote, piggyback off of Sheev, and then say Kun's feats are better. It's that simple.
The quote doesn't have to apply to you, as apparently a lot doesn't, but when you're going to specifically address it, it will. I'm not arguing that the quote should be shoved into everyone's face and be the deciding factor. I'm arguing with what the quote says and why your reasons don't apply.
You've ignored almost everything I've said because you refuse to admit you could be wrong (unless it's about your reading comprehension). I feel I've more than proven you wrong.
But then this little issue right here proves your hypocrisy. What you're willing to accept in terms of Kun should apply across the board. You just said that Kun was the greatest force nexus up to Luke's era because Luke called him one of two of the greatest focal points of DSE he PERSONALLY has encountered, and because "darkest in the galaxy". You just tried to retroactively apply a statement made before the introduction of the Star Forge to the Star Forge - because it was republished for the masses to read about Kun - that stated that "Kun was the darkest power in the galaxy".
You're willing to accept that, but you absolutely refuse to accept a statement that says "Malak has far greater powers than Kun" could in anyway be referring to power.
Yes you're stubborn, good, but this isn't about the Malak quote meaning anymore. That debate is over, that did not turn out well for you, don't try and rehash it. This is about whether or not quotes exist that are clearer than the Malak quote. You've had multiple posts and you have actually somehow produced nothing that even came close to showing what you said. You've managed to lower my opinion by an inability and I came into this thread under the understanding that Kun was proven pretty clearly to be above Malak.
Do you want to just agree to disagree at this stage, or... ?
I have no issue continuing but I mean, do you really think this is helping Kun at this stage? I won't take it as a concession, but if you respond to that post, I'll probably respond back I guess.
Registered: Aug 2014
Location: The balance of the Force
I think you're taking things far too literally. I mean the JA Trilogy refers to the Yavin IV Temples as focal points, other sources call them a dark side nexus. They're interchangeable terms and no amount of sprinkling Force context is going to literally change the English language.
Kun in the first place, being a nexus, is already a major facet of power difference between himself and Darth Malak. That is what this comes down to. In any comparison between the two, Kun stomps. His feats and accolades are on an entirely other tier.
I mean where are you even getting this arbitrary rule that retroactive retcons are a thing? Because Leland Chee has stated ad nauseum that full retcons are the last resort, not the first. So Exar Kun being the darkest power in the galaxy is a valid estimate of his power on the galactic stage at this time. A consistent statement not contradicted by any source. Ant went on a crusade with De Agostini to prove a Windu > Revan argument was wrong. But that doesn't have some paradigm shift on the last three decades of policy.
I don't have Kun > Tenebrae, because he outright has a statement placing him above all others as of Nathema onwards. The Star Forge has no such quote, the only semblance of evidence that it is greater than him is the Herndon quote. Which you still haven't proven couldn't possibly refer to anything besides Malak > Kun. In fact, I believe our argument has only served to prove that it's far from definitive.
If you wish to cease the debate, however, it is fine by me.
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Within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame. This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.
Nov 12th, 2018 12:10 AM
