“Bullshit. It was never mentioned in game that Hord lived in a time with both lightsaber and blade.”
You accuse me of lying?
And I quote.
“Updated continuity information from The New Essential Chronology has now refined Hord's historical lifespan—he lived at some point after the Hundred-Year Darkness and Dark Jedi exile from the Old Republic (around 6,900 BBY), until an undefined time prior to the Great Hyperspace War (c. 5,000 BBY).
Kreia's remark about Tulak Hord being a lightsaber master would well be correct. “
“It never was said that it was "the guide" to being the best duelist in the galaxy.”
It says so in “the Sith Lords” that it contains information his technique.
What else could it contain, memoirs of his love life?
”Also, you haven't proven that learning from the best makes you the best”
If you have as much talent as an ancient Sith Lord/Jedi as Revan, than you can make use of what the best teach you. If you are a noob like any random youngling, than no.
“Stop lying”
I said she stated implicitly. Why would she state “Revan is power” if she herself is his superior?
“Funny. I never heard Kreia go "Revan is force pwnage."
Ok, I said “roughly”. If you want me to speak in a more serious tone I will. She said Revan was the heart of the force and that he was power. She stated the Exile was the death of the force.
“Tactical war leader does not mean tactical fighter”
In Revan’s case it does because its proven many times over that he was an excellent fighter. He was also a good military strategist/tactician. You connect the dots, he was a tactical fighter.
“Winning a war when you have more resources does not indicate you are the superior.”
Turning the tide of combat single handedly does. The Mandalorians were opening a can of whoopass on the Republic before Revan came along. It was only by his superiority to the Mandalorian tactics, that the Republic was able to win the war they were previously loosing.
“I have the newest NEC and I can't find it”
It was Daniel Wallace on LFL’s official stance with KOTOR. It was agreed canonically that Revan defeated the multitude of droids/dark jedi single handedly.
”And this shows what exactly?”
I was refuting the point that Revan needed to absorb the force of others to win the battle against Malak.
“There are fewer Mandalorians than Republic forces because it was MENTIONED in the storyline that they had fewer men, fewer planets, fewer system, fewer resoruces. Period.”
Acknowledged then. But it was also stated in the story that they were winning before Revan came along. You must admit that Revan turned the tide of a loosing battle.
“No you haven't, and there you go again, thanks for proving my point.“
I was joking again dimwit….
“Since when did the PT era even encounted anything of the Ancient Sith”
What are you talking about? I was stating that they weren’t screwed over due to the old republic being demolished by the ancient Sith. If they were screwed over, there would be no Jedi council, and Anakin, would be sacrificed on an ancient Sith altar. :P
“There's a difference between basic logical deduction towards extrapolation of something that barely has anything to do with the facts”
The facts are listed and the extrapolation has been done for your all too pathetic brain. I hope you enjoyed my post :P
You accuse me of lying?
And I quote.
“Updated continuity information from The New Essential Chronology has now refined Hord's historical lifespan—he lived at some point after the Hundred-Year Darkness and Dark Jedi exile from the Old Republic (around 6,900 BBY), until an undefined time prior to the Great Hyperspace War (c. 5,000 BBY).
Kreia's remark about Tulak Hord being a lightsaber master would well be correct.
Alright, we never disputed he used a lightsaber, or even that he was one of the best, what we are disputing is that he lived in the time of sith swords. To clarify, sith swords are NOT lightsabers. Thus he can be the best with a lightsaber and still not be the best.
It says so in “the Sith Lords” that it contains information his technique.
What else could it contain, memoirs of his love life?
Ok it contains information about his technique good. Now how do we know Revan learned it all? Answer, we don't. Also, since Revan is canonically LS, then why would he wish to learn from an ancient sith lord. With Bastila around, they would both be extremely careful to not fall again, meaning that he would stay away from DS artifacts. A holocron from an ancient sith lord detailing his techniques would certainly count as dark
If you have as much talent as an ancient Sith Lord/Jedi as Revan, than you can make use of what the best teach you. If you are a noob like any random youngling, than no.
Again, reading above, there is no proof that Revan even used the holocron. Also, he could not have mastered it in the short time he had, simple as that. I will use physics as an example here, say I found a reincarnation of Newton, Enstein or someone like that. Then say I try to learn all I can from them, while before I was but a child compared to them (if you want to use Kreia's quote about Revan being like the heart of the force, then you also have to admit he was a child compared to them). So you take a child, and most people would agree a child is someone younger than 13, 13 and later is a teenager. So you take a grade 7 or so student and stick him with Newton for a year, maybe two. Do you think he would be superior to Newton after that short time? Hell no, same with Revan
I said she stated implicitly. Why would she state “Revan is power” if she herself is his superior?
And later she states that the Exile is better, whether or not the Exile is the heart of the force does not matter, she said that the Exile > Revan, so using your logic of Kreia = God, Exile > Revan
Ok, I said “roughly”. If you want me to speak in a more serious tone I will. She said Revan was the heart of the force and that he was power. She stated the Exile was the death of the force.
Yup, and she also said that the Exile > Revan, want to argue that as well?
Turning the tide of combat single handedly does. The Mandalorians were opening a can of whoopass on the Republic before Revan came along. It was only by his superiority to the Mandalorian tactics, that the Republic was able to win the war they were previously loosing.
Revan also brought other jedi with him. They helped greatly in turning the tide of the battle, one man could not do it alone. Kobe Bryant recently scored 81 points in a single game, but he could not have done that with no team members. Same with Revan
It was Daniel Wallace on LFL’s official stance with KOTOR. It was agreed canonically that Revan defeated the multitude of droids/dark jedi single handedly.
Ok, how many is a multitude?
I was refuting the point that Revan needed to absorb the force of others to win the battle against Malak.
You know that using destroy droid on the fallen jedi kills them, does not give you life and does not give you DS points. Thus he may have only beat Malak twice, using LS powers
Acknowledged then. But it was also stated in the story that they were winning before Revan came along. You must admit that Revan turned the tide of a loosing battle.
No, Revan AND THE JEDI turned the tide of the battle. Also if you read Malak's bio on the official KotOR site, it says that people gave him just as much credit for beating the Mandalorians as Revan.
The facts are listed and the extrapolation has been done for your all too pathetic brain. I hope you enjoyed my post :P
Now the facts are listed and I am looking forward to your pathetic rebuttel
Oh and again you forgot my other post
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
So the NEC is part of the game now? LMAO. At least defend correctly.
Ok. So that proves that he's a master of sith swords how? To clarify, it doesn't. You're just talking out of your ass. Kreia said best with a lightsaber. Well that's convenient, considering all the other Sith Lords we see use sith swords!
Which is quite different from a step by step book for how to be the best lightsaber duelist in the galaxy.
Like I said, Yoda was the best lightsaber duelist of the PT era, but not everyone who learned from him personally became the best duelist. How would someone who learns from his Holocron attain that status? You have to PROVE it.
You've yet to establish that Revan had as much talent as an Ancient Sith Lord, much less establish that he had the lifespan. And you haven't established exactly what he took/learned from the Sith either. You know he raided the tombs and took Ajunta's blade and Tulak's holocron. Meanwhile, Exar even created artifacts like the ancient Sith.
Unless it states him in context to herself, it's meaningless.
Qui-Gon said something to that effect about Anakin in the TPM novelization. Does that mean that 10 year Anakin could beat Qui-Gon's ass?
You must have conveniently missed where she said The Exile was better. That's pretty definitive.
WTF? That's not connecting the dots, that's random assumption. There is no correlation between military strategy and tactical hand-to-hand. I can name you several generals in world history, as well as several instances in SW continuity, where that's not the case. You have no argument here.
Notice how you dodge the question about the page number. Like I said, how come the only source anyone seems to find it on is the wikipedia?
Okay. And Malak is about as relevant to this discussion as Ulic is.
Uhm.. Gav turned the tide against Naga Sadow. Does that mean he's a genius and could kick anyone's ass? Vader turned the tide against the Emperor, does that mean he could kick their ass?
The idea doesn't compute.
And like Lord Darkstar said, Malak turned the tide too. Revan did not go in their by himself and turn the tide with his jobber aura.
And thanks again for proving my point.
Wait... let's take a dubious source in Kreia, who has lied before. And then let's do some STRONG extrapolation (which any basic logician or statistician will tell you is dangerous and not exactly accurate) on that dubious source. zOMG, the yield must be an unquestioned truth.
Apparently words like "proof" and "facts" are over your head.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
I had the greatest mental image when I read this.
Anyways, new guy... Zephyr or whatever... Use brackets like these [ ] and put the word "quote" in between them. In other words, make it look like this: [ quote ] minus the space before and after the word quote. Then after you have done that, be sure to do the same after the quote itself, only with a slash / as in [ / quote ] like that. That way you can quote us like this:
And it's a lot easier to read for everyone as opposed to using quotation marks like this:
“Thus he can be the best with a lightsaber and still not be the best.”
What do you mean? I said Hord was the best duelist the galaxy ever knew. He lived during the ancient Sith Empire, but became the dark lord after they had invented the lightsaber.
“Ok it contains information about his technique good. Now how do we know Revan learned it all? Answer, we don't. Also, since Revan is canonically LS, then why would he wish to learn from an ancient sith lord. With Bastila around, they would both be extremely careful to not fall again, meaning that he would stay away from DS artifacts. A holocron from an ancient sith lord detailing his techniques would certainly count as dark”
Revan also experienced both sides of the force so he understands the lure of the dark side. That aside, techniques are not considered inherently darkside/lightside; for example, Ataru is used by both Yoda and Sidiouis. Revan would learn from the holocron to improve his lightsaber dueling ability and better defend the Republic from the ancient sith empire.
“if you want to use Kreia's quote about Revan being like the heart of the force, then you also have to admit he was a child compared to them.”
Why would I have to admit anything like that? Revan is akin to the heart of the force, but he is no “child” compared to the ancient Sith Lords. I am arguing my position, that Revan is at least Exar’s equal if not slightly greater. Exar was not a child compared to the ancient Sith Lords. Same deal with Revan, he would pick up Tulak Hord’s style because he has the talent to do so. Your physics comparison is good, but I do not admit that Revan was a child compared to the ancient Sith Lords. I am trying to argue against that.
“And later she states that the Exile is better, whether or not the Exile is the heart of the force does not matter”
I do not recall her saying anything along those lines. Even if she was, she had no idea how much more powerful Revan became after he defeated Malak. His skill in the force and dueling canonically increased substantially, and that is augmented by the knowledge he obtained during his reign as the dark lord.
“They helped greatly in turning the tide of the battle, one man could not do it alone”
I’m sure they did, but I mean he turned the battle through tactics and military genius alone. Canderous Ordo stated “It was not through your soldiers, or Jedi, or vaunted fight for freedom, but through the actions of one man alone, the Jedi Revan,” or something along those lines.
“Ok, how many is a multitude”
According to Daniel Wallace on LFL’s official stance with KOTOR
“Revan single-handedly defeated an entire army of Sith and Dark Jedi, a testament to his power in the Force and mastery of lightsaber combat”
An army I would assume means a lot.
You know that using destroy droid on the fallen jedi kills them, does not give you life and does not give you DS points. Thus he may have only beat Malak twice, using LS powers
Acknowledged. The official stance says the same. However Malak was nontheless augmented by the power of the Star Forge.
No, Revan AND THE JEDI turned the tide of the battle. Also if you read Malak's bio on the official KotOR site, it says that people gave him just as much credit for beating the Mandalorians as Revan.
Malak was Revan’s brute. He completed all tasks given to him with frightening precision. However it was Revan’s genius that won the war. If Malak were strapped down to the role of commander, he would said something along the lines of “lets attack them in broad daylight.”
"Now the facts are listed and I am looking forward to your pathetic rebuttel"
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Account Restricted
What do you mean? I said Hord was the best duelist the galaxy ever knew. He lived during the ancient Sith Empire, but became the dark lord after they had invented the lightsaber.
What the hell? PROVE IT! For all you know, it could be a rumor. That would be like me saying the following:
KAY, B*TCHES! SIDZ LEARNED FROM T3H PLAGEIUS WHO CAN MANIPULATEZORZ TEH MIDICHLORINES!111
You know what the problem is with Tulak Hord and Darth Plageius? We know nothing about them. THEREFORE, going around saying because Revan opened up a Holocron (Which may not have happened) and learned Tulak Hords secrets he is suddenly going to be this Uber Duelist? YEAH RIGHT!
Revan also experienced both sides of the force so he understands the lure of the dark side. That aside, techniques are not considered inherently darkside/lightside; for example, Ataru is used by both Yoda and Sidiouis. Revan would learn from the holocron to improve his lightsaber dueling ability and better defend the Republic from the ancient sith empire.
Sidious knows Ataru now? Can you prove this? Or is this another one of your half ass assumptions?
It is!
Read my above reply to your first Paracrap.
Why would I have to admit anything like that? Revan is akin to the heart of the force, but he is no “child” compared to the ancient Sith Lords. I am arguing my position, that Revan is at least Exar’s equal if not slightly greater. Exar was not a child compared to the ancient Sith Lords. Same deal with Revan, he would pick up Tulak Hord’s style because he has the talent to do so. Your physics comparison is good, but I do not admit that Revan was a child compared to the ancient Sith Lords. I am trying to argue against that.
..And you're failing miserably.
Drop this Tulak Hord technique shit for f*cks sakes!
First of all, Kreia mentioned the person who received the Holocron is unknown.
Second of all, did you see Revan open it? Did you see him learn from it? Did you see him master Tulak's secrets EVEN IF HE DID GET THE HOLOCRON?
Do you have significant proof Tulak was a saber god besides a few rumors from game characters?
Do you have any Logic in that brain of yours that tells you that if Revan is canonically Lightsided he wouldn't dare open a DS Holocron?
I do not recall her saying anything along those lines. Even if she was, she had no idea how much more powerful Revan became after he defeated Malak. His skill in the force and dueling canonically increased substantially, and that is augmented by the knowledge he obtained during his reign as the dark lord.
If Kreia doesn't have an idea on how powerful Revan is, I can imagine you don't either!
So... Revan canonically became powerful? Where does it say this? Can you show some proof? For ONCE?
I’m sure they did, but I mean he turned the battle through tactics and military genius alone. Canderous Ordo stated “It was not through your soldiers, or Jedi, or vaunted fight for freedom, but through the actions of one man alone, the Jedi Revan,” or something along those lines.
Kreia also said the Exile was more powerful than Revan. Hah!
Ordo says alot of things, Zephiel. Don't take that to heart.
According to Daniel Wallace on LFL’s official stance with KOTOR
“Revan single-handedly defeated an entire army of Sith and Dark Jedi, a testament to his power in the Force and mastery of lightsaber combat”
An army I would assume means a lot.
You're using that Wikipedia quote AGAIN? It isn't from Daniel Wallace, you damn liar! IT'S FROM WIKIPEDIA!
You said it was from the Essential Chronology, which it isn't....
Now you're saying it's his stance? Which is ANOTHER lie?
F*ck off.
Malak was Revan’s brute. He completed all tasks given to him with frightening precision. However it was Revan’s genius that won the war. If Malak were strapped down to the role of commander, he would said something along the lines of “lets attack them in broad daylight.”
Sure, Revan was a genius. This doesn't determine his power of the Force or his Lightsaber skills. Your fanboyism is slipping in again.
You spelled rebuttal wrong…
Nevertheless you were a pleasant debater. [/QUOTE]
His spelling is irrelevant.
Nevertheless.... You can't debate worth shit.
__________________
An Ancient Prophecy . . . The deity shall walk forth . . .
This is absurd to say the least people... I would have expected better from you Sorgo...
Tulak was the greatest duellist around, there is no denying this. I mean seriously its like me asking you to proof Ragnos was the most powerful without using quotes from somebody else... Now thats going to be damned hard to do.. That Revan would have learned from him is a very logical assumption.
The ataru bit is crap the rest is right though.
Yes, why would a Jedi who has since the start of his life learned everything he could from all sides of the force not open a Sith Holocron that describes a lightsaber style? Now is there any proof that Revan has the Holocron, nothing definite no. Nobody clearly says Revan took the holocron, its the only logical answer however and very likely. Does that proof anything? Not really. But even if Revan didn't have the holocron he would still be a lightsaber god so its not like it really matters.
Seeing as he played Kotor I and Kreia hasn't seen Revan since the start or the end of the Mandelorian wars he might just be able to place a better guess. Hell its very likely Kreia hasn't even been outside of Malachor since the start of the Jedi Civil War, her info would indeed be limited.
He regained his memorry from his destroyed mind, that means a lot if you ask me.
Ordo is not the only one who has said it. Not that it matters because if there is anything we can trust a Mandelorian his oppinion on its on matters of war. Canderous knows what he's talking about and is far more qualified to make those statements then you are to question them.
Right... Could you please try stopping all that bullshit Sorgo, your coming off as a pissed off 12 year old...
True but it does proof that Revan is the one that won the war, not Malak.
Right....
Now please don't read this wrong and think I think that Exar will win, I don't... But this answer is... well actually the entire manner of this debate is wrong if you ask me. What the hell are we debating here? That Revan could not beat Exar Kun, or just everything some guy is saying?
Registered: May 2005
Location: .::The Anti-Fanboy Confederation::.
Account Restricted
Tulak was the greatest duellist around, there is no denying this. I mean seriously its like me asking you to proof Ragnos was the most powerful without using quotes from somebody else... Now thats going to be damned hard to do.. That Revan would have learned from him is a very logical assumption.
Why isn't there denying it, Fishy?
What have you seen of Tulak?
I mean... At least we've seen Marka in comics, he's talked about in Comics, he's on a Video game...
And Tulak? Well... Two people said he was an Uber saber god. That's about it honestly.
Yes, why would a Jedi who has since the start of his life learned everything he could from all sides of the force not open a Sith Holocron that describes a lightsaber style? Now is there any proof that Revan has the Holocron, nothing definite no. Nobody clearly says Revan took the holocron, its the only logical answer however and very likely. Does that proof anything? Not really. But even if Revan didn't have the holocron he would still be a lightsaber god so its not like it really matters.
Why would he open it? Any reasonable Jedi knows that it could be a danger and could lure him into the Dark side AGAIN.
No... No Jedi would open it. They know the Dangers of such a Holocron.
Seeing as he played Kotor I and Kreia hasn't seen Revan since the start or the end of the Mandelorian wars he might just be able to place a better guess. Hell its very likely Kreia hasn't even been outside of Malachor since the start of the Jedi Civil War, her info would indeed be limited.
So you somewhat agree? That's good.
He regained his memorry from his destroyed mind, that means a lot if you ask me.
What the....? He didn't do it on his own at all. There were several hints throughout the game and Malak started speaking to him like they were once entied as a partnership.
Wow... He has a good memory... This doesn't quite determine his power.
Ordo is not the only one who has said it. Not that it matters because if there is anything we can trust a Mandelorian his oppinion on its on matters of war. Canderous knows what he's talking about and is far more qualified to make those statements then you are to question them.
And you're qualified to say Canderous knows what he is talking about?
Like I said before: Just because you're intelligent and a good tactician doesn't mean you're a Force God and a Lightsaber god as well.
Intelligence and Power? Two very different things.
Right... Could you please try stopping all that bullshit Sorgo, your coming off as a pissed off 12 year old...
You telling me what to do doesn't honestly cut it for me, Fishy.
I'm the one with the Bullshit? He just lied, yet I am pushing bullshit?
Wow, this is pathetic.
True but it does proof that Revan is the one that won the war, not Malak.
Great. The only flaw is we are not comparing Revan to Malak.
Damn... I smell Fanboyism.
__________________
An Ancient Prophecy . . . The deity shall walk forth . . .
You know argueing like that makes everything shit, if you can't use quotes from people if you can't use what is said. How do we know Dooku beat Mace, because its said can we believe that? Have you seen Dooku beat Mace? Tulak is a lightsaber god.
He is said to be a lightsaber god, unless you can prove that he isn't ,he is. Now stop being an idiot.
and now Revan who had a few weeks of training suddenly knows all the dangers of the Dark Side and lost all his will to learn things that he wasn't allowed to learn? If he couldn't learn to just accept things in years what chance would he have of learning that in a few weeks?
Not to mention the fact that Revan didn't know he was Revan and therefor didn't know of any danger to return to the Dark Side.
his mind was almost completely destroyed and there was no way of restoring it according to Bastila... Who could know. Revan regained what was completely destroyed... That requires a technique nobody else knew.
And you asked for evidence that he became more powerful after the Star Forge... Well there it is, he regained his memorry that equals knowledge, knowledge equals power. Simple as that.
You are changing the subject again, You were saying Revan wasn't the reason the war turned. The quote of an in game character who also happens to be a Mandelorian and a brilliant general disagrees with you. Therefor you are wrong. Revan changed the tide of the war, not Malak.
It does not make him a great warrior but you weren't debating that in this particulair point. Also yes i'm quallified to say that Canderous knows what he's talking about, because he's an ingame cannon source and obviously knows more about this then you do.
I don't care if he lied or not Sorgo, but you are acting like a pissed off spoiled 12 year old who didn't get the present he wanted for his birthday... There is no need for all the cursing and stuff, just calm down and relax.
Great. The only flaw is that, that is exactly what you were doing. You were trying to kick Revan down by saying he didn't win the war. You were proven wrong, and now all of a sudden you are saying we aren't debating Revan winning the war anymore?
Damn... I smell somebody who constantly tries to change the subject.
Now either stop argueing that Revan didn't win the war, or stop trying to go back and forward between points.
In one post you are argueing Malak did as much against the Mandelorians as Revan, then in the next post when its said that Revan his tactics won the war it doesn't matter because Tactics do not make one a great fighter...
Feb 6th, 2006 04:26 AM
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