No, he is said to be the best among the Ancient Sith in using a lightsaber, which means nothing because the Ancient Sith did not use lightsabers. And he is said to be the best by Kreia who has never even f'ing seen him.
This is in contrast to Ragnos whose power is described by the narrator and not some two-faced hag.
Except you don't receive it in the game, and Revan is canonically lightside. This is irrelevant:
You cannot prove that Revan learned shit from the holocron, even if he did get it.
BS, you're making assumptions. For all you know his mind was restored merely because of his link to Bastila. That and you're using yet another very fallible character as your end-all be-all source.
Revan could not have entered the war, by himself, with no Jedi following him and performed the same feat. To discount the fact that he brought an army of Jedi with him is pure fanboyism.
Prove it.
Laughable. It's hard to envision a scenario in which Exar Kun doesn't curbstomp this upstart from a lower knowledge base and a weaker Jedi Order.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
If we can't use characters as sources anymore we will lose a lot of sources... And it means nothing? If he wasn't the best fighter of the era how would he have become the Dark Lord? Lightsaber users or not, its not relevant Tulak was greater then all of them.
Revan is lightside now? I just had this debate two weeks ago, there is no definite stance on him yet. And I never claimed he learned anything from the Holocron now did I? I'm not even saying Revan will win, i'm just saying that the way people are debating here is laughable to say the least, we aren't even discussing Revan vs Exar anymore.
Its the only real source we have, can you prove otherwise? No, can you make up a good theory with proof that says otherwise? No, therefor the most likely explanation is indeed that he restored his mind completely. And how the hell could Bastila give him his memorry back, she didn't share them now did she?
Not the point and you are heavily overreacting here, does anybody ever really do anything alone? Hardly... We still attribute the feats to him though. The fact remains that Revan won the war becuase of his tactics of course he had soldiers fighting for him, but we don't go around saying Alexander the Great + his soldiers won battles, no we say Alexander the Great won battles. Come on IKC what are you trying to argue here? Trying to make me look like a Fanboy when I don't even think Revan will win? Not working.
Lightsaber prodigy Malak was only ever beaten by him, Malak was always second to Revan in every field that includes lightsaber fighting. Battle pre-cog thats even better then that of any Echani and Jedi.... How could he ever suck with a lightsaber?
My mistake I said that wrong, I don't think Revan will win...
Edit: Okay I re-read parts of the thread I can understand where you guys are coming from... He has made some pretty absurd statements in previous posts...
Indeed, it means nothing. Best lightsaber user out of an order that uses metal swords? Whoopee, Tulak.
What makes you think he was ever the Dark Lord? We know jack shit about Hord.
For his time, in using a lightsaber. Irrelevant since nobody else did. And Marka/Ludo/Naga would curbstomp him.
Here's your first hint: The Republic isn't conquered. If he were canonically Dark Side, he'd have done just that.
You want me to prove a negative? Why don't I just cast my doubts over Bastila's infallibility and leave it there?
You should pay better attention to the game. Repeated instances of his old memories play out in their shared visions.
No, the most likely explanation is that his memory slowly came back to him as it continually did during the game.
You attribute the feat to him and him alone falsely. Say I'm transported to some mythical time period with an M-16 and I take down a minotaur. I didn't do that on my own, I had quite a bit of help. It is false to say I could do it on my own.
Nonsense, for all you know Revan attacked Malak with the Force, and the Force alone.
Is Malak second to Revan in being tall? Is Malak the inferior eater? Farter? Traveling salesman?
Palpatine's Force foresight was better than anyone of his timeperiod, yet he got put on his ass by Mace Windu.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Somebody who makes Jedi of a later era look like children playing with toys would definitly not have any opposition, or any experience with a lightsaber. I'm sure he was just a famous fighter because he had a colourful blade...
I don't know... Maybe his Tomb in the Valley of Dark Lords... I didn't know commoners got burried in tombs like that.
Yeah they most likely would. Not that it matters... I mean seriously are you honestly claiming, that somebody who was burried in a tomb like that in that particulair valley who would make Jedi and Sith of later era look like children playing with toys is a noob who never used his lightsaber against anybody and just sat out his days in a cabin looking at his fancy coloured blade?
Means nothing, the Republic hasn't been restored either the Jedi Order is still falling and according to Goto will fall anyways. There is plenty of evidence indicitating both ways light or dark and until there is an official statement its foolish to say what Revan is.
Prove a negative? How are you going to prove a Negative? There is one thing that has evidence (an in game quote) supporting it and then there is your theory that has nothing supporting it. Of course I want you to proof it. It goes against what is said, I want proof before I accept it.
Yeah the only reason Revan was still alive, if there was any part that could have been restored by the Jedi Order it would have been that part, it would have been the part they would try their hardest to restore. Yes it is true that Revan still has small pieces of his memorry here and there, that he still knows some skills he has learned. But that doesn't change the fact that most of his mind was destroyed in the blast. He restored it. Not like it matters anyways how he did it. Even if i'm wrong here it doesn't change anything.
Because we were argueing or actually Sorgo was arguing that Revan did not become more powerful after the Star Forge, even though he regained a hell of a lot of knowledge.
Goes against what is shown but it doesn't even matter for this debate.
When is the last time you said Exar Kun killed Vodo with a lightsaber? No you just say he killed Vodo. This is stupid and unless you want to argue like this every single time I suggest you drop it. Of course Revan did not win the war alone, nobody ever has. Its still attributed to him like a lot of other feats are to people even though they had help. Please just drop it.
Yes, thats probably why he's shown standing over Malak his body with a lightsaber. And thats probably why other force users are so damned hard to kill with the force alone. Seriously though if Revan would have killed Malak using the force alone he gains a lot of prestige in my mind.
"Malak was a great Jedi, but Revan was always the greater of the two." - Vandar. Does that mean enough? Or do you wish to argue stupid things even longer and say that perhaps Ragnos was a god amongst gods in apple pie baking contests... Because thats basically what you are doing.
Yes because for sight and battle pre-cog are the exact same thing these days... Revan is described as a great fighter, he has battle pre-cog greater then that of any Echani who are great fighters because of their pre-cog and he has an additional bonus becuase of Jedi reflexes...
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You know argueing like that makes everything shit, if you can't use quotes from people if you can't use what is said. How do we know Dooku beat Mace, because its said can we believe that? Have you seen Dooku beat Mace? Tulak is a lightsaber god.
He is said to be a lightsaber god, unless you can prove that he isn't ,he is. Now stop being an idiot.
I've heard enough, Fishy. Drop it with the names.
Wouldn't want people seeing you acting like a twelve year old.
You hypocrite.
Okay fine. How about this. I say that Darth Plageius could wipe the floor with Marka Ragnos and since I said it and there is no proof to back it up, that means that it's 100% true.
and now Revan who had a few weeks of training suddenly knows all the dangers of the Dark Side and lost all his will to learn things that he wasn't allowed to learn? If he couldn't learn to just accept things in years what chance would he have of learning that in a few weeks?
Not to mention the fact that Revan didn't know he was Revan and therefor didn't know of any danger to return to the Dark Side.
Thanks for pointing out the obvious but no one was talking about when he regained his memory. At least not at the current moment.
Um.... Buddy.... There was a danger of going to the dark side PERIOD and if he was canonically going to the Light side, I'm sure he wasn't planning on doing anything bad or being a part of the Dark side of the Force.
his mind was almost completely destroyed and there was no way of restoring it according to Bastila... Who could know. Revan regained what was completely destroyed... That requires a technique nobody else knew.
Wow. Now regaining your memory from a shoddy Jedi trick is some sort of unbelievable skill? It was obvious he was strong in the force but the fact that he regained his memory could have NOTHING to do with the force or anything else. Once again, it was probably his intelligence and gathering the information he remembered earlier when Malak starting saying that they were related.
And you asked for evidence that he became more powerful after the Star Forge... Well there it is, he regained his memorry that equals knowledge, knowledge equals power. Simple as that.
Oh I see.
"R3VAN GAIN MEMORY!!11 DIS MEAN POWER!!1 LOL!!1"
No. Sorry. Is that all you have? Memory gained = Knowledge = Power? That's such shit!
You are changing the subject again, You were saying Revan wasn't the reason the war turned. The quote of an in game character who also happens to be a Mandelorian and a brilliant general disagrees with you. Therefor you are wrong. Revan changed the tide of the war, not Malak.
It does not make him a great warrior but you weren't debating that in this particulair point. Also yes i'm quallified to say that Canderous knows what he's talking about, because he's an ingame cannon source and obviously knows more about this then you do.
You're not qualified to say shit all, actually.
I'm qualified to say the Exile could wipe the floor with Revan because Kreia said so. And she knows what she is talking about. She is an in game Canon source and knows more than you.
The Exile was said to be an Average Jedi. If he is more powerful than Revan... Well.... I let you do the math.
I don't care if he lied or not Sorgo, but you are acting like a pissed off spoiled 12 year old who didn't get the present he wanted for his birthday... There is no need for all the cursing and stuff, just calm down and relax.
^ It's funny how you could gather such courage to say something so damn hypocritical after what you said up there in your second or first post.
Great. The only flaw is that, that is exactly what you were doing. You were trying to kick Revan down by saying he didn't win the war. You were proven wrong, and now all of a sudden you are saying we aren't debating Revan winning the war anymore?
Damn... I smell somebody who constantly tries to change the subject.
I said in an earlier post to Zephiel that it was CLEAR that Revan won ONE war and that ordering around a bunch of soldiers didn't determine his force power nor his Lightsaber skills.
I still think you're a fanboy. Have you seen some of Zephiel's posting? It's ridiculous! And you agree with it.
Now either stop argueing that Revan didn't win the war, or stop trying to go back and forward between points.
In one post you are argueing Malak did as much against the Mandelorians as Revan, then in the next post when its said that Revan his tactics won the war it doesn't matter because Tactics do not make one a great fighter...
Please.
I was arguing two points because Zephiel switched his points from my earlier post in this thread.
Try reading properly or shape up on your english.
__________________
An Ancient Prophecy . . . The deity shall walk forth . . .
When you become a cannon source then yes that is correct otherwise its bullshit. And you were acting like an idiot, so yeah i'm going to say thats idiotic, not as bad as what you did though.
The only problem is that he isn't lightside cannon because there is nothing to say that he is either one. He might have turned light a lot later. And again if a Jedi with years of training would ignore the wisdom of the council because he wanted to learn, why would a Jedi with two or three weeks of training not do the same?
Knowledge is power simple as that, Revan could have regained knowledge to techniques especially if he really did follow the lightside, unless you wish to argue that having more knowledge doesn't mean a thing now. Of course it doesn't make you all powerful but learning a lot does give you an edge over people who have not learned a lot.
Unlike Mandalore Kreia her information on this particulair matter was limited as she could not know Revan his strength at the moment, it is however very possible that the Exile was more powerful then, then Revan was when he left to join the Mandelorian wars. And the Exile was no longer an average Jedi, he had the nice eating the force becoming more powerful gift after all.
I don't see me cursing, but if you want me to apologise for calling one of your posts idiotic, then fine. I'm sorry, but you should still calm down and relax.
If you would have read my other posts you would see that, that is not true i'm just argueing with the way you people are debating here. Exar will WTFPWN Revan, but the way you people are trying to prove it... It just sucks.
Doesn't matter, the reason I entered this thread has not changed. Exar will win, Revan will lose. But the reasons you people are stating are just... Strange
The only canon source we have is a character. If Naga Sadow says he's invincible and can not be stopped, it's true?
None of the characters have seen Tulak Hord fight, they don't have his holocron, they know jack about him. There is no narrative describing Tulak's power. He is a complete unknown. Period. End of story.
The quote about him being the best lightsaber duelist is dubious in and of itself, consider all the other ancient sith lords, and even their underlings, use swords or other pointy, metal objects. Not a one uses a lightsaber, so what's your point? You're attempting to make an irrelevant comparison.
Nothing to say he is a lightside canon except for all the instances in KotOR II that would not have been extremely improbable if he ended in the dark side.
And if you want to dispute the canonical ending, you literally have no argument whatsoever, much of what we know about Revan is from the ending.
And yet, there's still no evidence that he learned more than Exar Kun, much less more than the ancient Sith Lords, who have lifespans of hundreds of years where they fully immersed themselves in Sith and dark side lore. Where's your canonical proof of what Revan learned?
It is also very possible that's not what she was referring to.
Your argument based on interpretation from a quote is hardly qualification for canonical argument. And I thought you ripped Sorgo for "not being a cannon source." Don't be a hypocrite.
How does it suck? We're asking the Revan supporter to prove up with something definitive. Storyline elements in games are C-canon, they qualify. Now storyline never mentions Revan as "wtf he's god!" or "zOMG he's the greatest evar!" You are using quotes for that.
If that was the case, the Kun supporters can just flood this thread with quotes that proclaim his power.
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When you become a cannon source then yes that is correct otherwise its bullshit. And you were acting like an idiot, so yeah i'm going to say thats idiotic, not as bad as what you did though.
Do you see yourself as a Canon source? I hardly call a single quote from some General Canon. If the only thing you can use against me is theories and possibilities along with a few quotes that can't even be justified, then you're being hypocritical.
The only problem is that he isn't lightside cannon because there is nothing to say that he is either one. He might have turned light a lot later. And again if a Jedi with years of training would ignore the wisdom of the council because he wanted to learn, why would a Jedi with two or three weeks of training not do the same?
What the...?
First of all: Revan was never seen to obtain Tulak's holocron.
Second of all: Kreia verified that someone unknown obtained it.
Third of all: Can you provide any solid proof that Tulak had the Holocron in the first place before arguing that he opened it?
Knowledge is power simple as that, Revan could have regained knowledge to techniques especially if he really did follow the lightside, unless you wish to argue that having more knowledge doesn't mean a thing now. Of course it doesn't make you all powerful but learning a lot does give you an edge over people who have not learned a lot.
No, It isn't as simple as that.
Now you're going to start to make assumptions? This is getting more pathetic by the second.
Knowledge can grant you alot of things but it wont make you the most powerful individual in the universe.
You're saying that because Revan has this vista of knowledge and a gift for being a graceful tactician that he suddenly has this great Force power and he is a Lightsaber god.
So far I haven't seen much proof towards the opinion that he is a Force god and a Saber god.
Unlike Mandalore Kreia her information on this particulair matter was limited as she could not know Revan his strength at the moment, it is however very possible that the Exile was more powerful then, then Revan was when he left to join the Mandelorian wars. And the Exile was no longer an average Jedi, he had the nice eating the force becoming more powerful gift after all.
Of course it's also possible that isn't what she was referring to but you can always assume that it is, but assumptions aren't a very good thing when it comes to debating these kind of things.
I don't see me cursing, but if you want me to apologise for calling one of your posts idiotic, then fine. I'm sorry, but you should still calm down and relax.
No, I shouldn't.
I wasn't expecting this bullshit from you.
If you would have read my other posts you would see that, that is not true i'm just argueing with the way you people are debating here. Exar will WTFPWN Revan, but the way you people are trying to prove it... It just sucks.
The way we're debating?
I can imagine assumptions and invalid theories are a better way of debating?
Didn't think so.
Doesn't matter, the reason I entered this thread has not changed. Exar will win, Revan will lose. But the reasons you people are stating are just... Strange
Hah! Join the club.
__________________
An Ancient Prophecy . . . The deity shall walk forth . . .
If its the only thing we have to go by, then yes I would say its true. Illustrious the difference here is that somebody who could know and is objective has said it.
If an objective source who could know would say that Sadow could have destroyed the entire Jedi in a straight fair fight then yes I would believe it. Unless of course there is evidence to show otherwise. There is no evidence to show otherwise and the person who said it can be seen as pretty objective. So I have no reason to believe anything else then what was said do you?
No, but like I said I never claimed he had the holocron it would be very likely if he did, but with or without the holocron it doesn't matter...
Did I ever say all powerful? No I didn't, I said more powerful. More powerful then he was before, does that make him as high as Exar? Or the people that Illustrious named, hell no, but I never claimed that either.
Well when was the last time we know Kreia saw Revan? According to herself when he wanted to leave the Jedi Order for ever... This would logically have been sometime before or during the Mandelorian wars, perhaps just before he became a Sith Lord... So how could she know? We have no evidence she saw him any other time, so it would be assumption to say she did Not one to say she didn't.
Yeah cursing is really the best way to enter a debate...
I'm not making any assumptions like that, i'm just saying that some of the things you are saying is just bullshit and strange. Tulak Hord never fighting for instance? Where the hell did that come from, everybody here knows that by all logic that is just bullshit. Assuming things that go against what is said, like Revan not turning the tide of the war when he was the single most important factor in the turning of the war. He was the reaosn the Mandelorians were beaten, of course he had help people always had help he was still the reason and you guys were debating that.
Revan regaining his memorry and becoming smarter and more powerful because of that? We know he regained knowledge we know that people that learn a lot of the force are ussually better with the force then people who don't, so its safe to say he became more powerful. Of course that was taken out of context and all of a sudden I was claiming it made him all powerful even though I didn't.
In a game you simply don't have some all knowing person telling you things, Kotor is an RPG meaning the movies and set things are limited, we have in game quotes however again from objective sources proclaiming his skill and powers, if we can't use those then what do we have? Is Revan even ever named outside of a game quote?
How would you know that Kreia is an "objective source" who would know? Was she around with Tulak Hord? Not likely. Has she seen her style? Not likely. Does she know how to use it? Not likely.
So she's objective because she's Kreia, or because "she has no reason to lie"? There's nothing to prove she's objective. More over, even if she was objective, it establishes nothing, as Tulak Hord used lightsabers when the rest of the Sith used swords, making comparison impossible.
There is no evidence for or against it. The only evidence we have to suggest it is someone who at best has hearsay and at worst is lying.
How does it not matter? We have next to nothing in storyline elements to even suggest that Revan was a legendary duelist in all of SW continuity. Was he a good duelist? Yes, no one said he sucked. There is, however, no proof to suggest he's on par with the greatest duelists of the SW universe.
Then the point is moot. The Kun supporters have argued that Kun learned more and attained more knowledge than Revan. No one said Revan didn't learn any knowledge. We are arguing that without proof of exactly what Revan amassed, it's pointless to try to establish how powerful he was with vague instances like "he raided Korriban [40 years after Kun did]."
She made a note about Revan's force potential. And the quote itself lends itself to the idea that she was gazing into Revan's future. It was about the Jedi he "would" slay.
Now, when Kreia says the Exile is "more powerful" than Revan, that's definitive. Arguing that "she could have meant" Revan at point A or point B in time is pointless, inconclusive, and not logically permissable.
Honestly Fishy, I would have expected a little better myself.
Who said Tulak never fought anyone? They are arguing that Tulak is not comparable to those people who used Sith Swords because Sith Swords != Lightsabers.
Also, they're questioning the validity of a quote someone of someone with no first hand knowledge.
The Jedi entered along with Revan. Are you saying the Jedi forces had no impact? Malak is credited on the databank as having as big an impact as Revan.
No one argued that Revan wasn't a good tactitian. His strategy combined with his forces probably was the cause of turning the war against the Mandalorians, but giving him credit for singlehandedly winning the war is romanticized BS.
Did Thrawn win wars by himself? Tarkin? Ackbar?
And if they did, does it have any relevance to a one on one fight? Can those aforementioned people kick the crap out of all their tactically inferior henchmen?
Again, you misinterpret the meaning. Of course Revan became more powerful after he regained his memory. But this is a thread about Exar vs. Revan. Revan with or without his memories is not up to Exar's level, period.
Show me where someone said (without context) that Revan was a weakling or that gaining his memories did absolutely nothing? They are referencing that with or without his memories, Exar is still his superior. You agree with this, so everything else is your misinterpretation.
There's a narrator voice at the beginning of every game in the role of the star wars marquee. The in game events (at least those concluded as canon) are C-Canon. Ergo, Revan beating Malak is c-canon. Malak blasting Revan's ship is c-canon, etc.
You can't say "because there is no narrator, person A's quote holds more weight."
No it doesn't. Kreia holds no more weight than some individual in TOTJ proclaiming Exar's power. Now if it's confirmed that Revan had indeed absorbed Tulak's holocron and he had fully mastered it to the same effect as Tulak Hord, and some later canon confirms Tulak Hord as one of the greatest Sith ever, then we have some concurrence to base it on.
Right now, there's pointless assumptions that can go either way.
Edit: Post is split in 2 because it became to long
And this is the real problem I have with this entire debate... Do you honestly believe that Tulak would not be a great fighter? Look he is said to be the greatest lightsaber duellist ever, or at least of his time. Even if other people used Sith Swords he would still have fought them, ergo it makes no real difference whether or not they used blades or not Tulak was more powerful... Why is that being debated?
True, but its the only evidence we have. Further we know that he is in the Valley of the Dark Lords and has a huge tomb there... Meaning he was a Dark Lord of the Sith. Now Kreia has been on Malachor for a very long time, if anybody could know what Tulak was it was here, she would know better then almost anybody since the fall of the Sith Empire. I personally trust her in this regard, and i'm arguing that you have no reason to not trust her. Because there simply is no evidence to suggest otherwise.
Malak was a lightsaber prodigy who could beat even the most powerful masters, Revan was better... Does not put him on the same scale as Exar perhaps... But still makes him a legendary duellist, seeing as he's also described as a legendaric fighter in the game.(By lots of people btw.)
I wasn't argueing that, I was arguing a redicilious claim that said Revan did not become more powerful from learning things.. Thats what I was saying. Thats what I found was strange.
How so? She said "You are the greatest I have ever trained"
How does that say anything about Revan his potential? And if it was about the Jedi he would slay then that would mean Revan is Dark Side would it not?
When Kreia says that its very clear, but when she says something about Tulak Hord which is far less subjective it can be argued?? This is a subjective statement and her knowledge and the matter can be heavily doubted. With Tulak Hord its a completely objective statement and its very likely that she would have the knowledge, otherwise she wouldn't have said anything.
Glad we agree on that then.
Well it was said that Tulak was not the greatest fighter because he was the greatest lightsaber wielder and not everybody in that time used a lightsaber. However if that was the case then how come he became Dark Lord of the Sith and got a tomb like that? Its a flawed statement.
No, but she could no better then anybody else outside of the Sith Empire, and if we just take a step out of the game, we both know that the Devs clearly meant for Tulak Hord to be a great lightsaber duellist of unmatched skill.
To quote myself
"like Revan not turning the tide of the war when he was the single most important factor in the turning of the war. He was the reaosn the Mandelorians were beaten, of course he had help people always had help he was still the reason"
I know I could have added he was still the most important reason... However this is simply what it is. Revan was the most important reason for the war to turn. I never claimed nor will I ever claim that he is the only reason he could not have done so without the Jedi. However its a clear fact that the Jedi without him would have been far less effective then he would have been without the Jedi. This is made clear by every general and or stratigician in the game. The databank his quote on Malak also says that "Many believed" or at least thats the in Kotor description of Malak, so i'm assuming the databank and his profile on the Kotor site say the same.
This of course is an oppinion based matter, about a hero. It could be heavily overreacted a front line general is never as important as somebody who commands all the army's, but he can still be seen as just a great a hero.
If you would read my post, you would see that I don't... Or at least never had the intention of doing so. If it came across like that, then sorry but thats wrong.
No, and I wans't argueing that either... Like I said I don't believe Revan can beat Exar Kun I just think some of the statements made in this thread are strange. Statements made by both sides btw, its just that you were defeating the other guys his incredibly stupid points with some flawed logic yourself.
I know, Sorgo said otherwise. He claimed Revan had not become more powerful or someting along those lines. And thats the reason i'm posting here.
To quote Sorgo
Misinterpretation or not, things like this are just wrong...
Things like Revan taking Ajunta Pall his sword then? Kreia said Revan took it? Revan beating Yussanis and Mandalore then? Lots of people claimed Revan did it, does that make it official or not?
well the story is told through the characters, meaning that when characters make certain statements we can put a lot of weight into them, especially when they can be seen as objective. Kreia saying that looking at Revan was like looking into the heart of the force, of course can be doubted it seems biased. Kreia for instance saying Revan took Ajunta Pall his blade however.... See my point? It was only said in the game that Revan defeated Yusanis and Mandalore does that make it any less true?
Unless we have a good reason to doubt statements, which we don't have in the case of Tulak, or when the Jedi Masters talk about Revan I really don't see a reason to put the quotes in doubt and doing so just makes any debate impossible... If you want to put in doubt however, I still think its up to you people to proof the quote wrong, not up to others to proof it right.
The holocron really isn't even an issue for me. The doubting of sources and shit is.
But answer me this, when we only have one source that could know and very likely does know when that one source is objective and has no reason to lie and even some very minimal evidence to support it, why would we consider it wrong? Why would you ask others to proof it right? Is it not your job to prove it wrong if you do not believe it?
Because it's not conclusive for Revan either way. Tulak Hord could be God himself and it would not make Revan more powerful unless they can establish that he learned and ascended to that level of power, which they can't.
Besides, there is no proof for Tulak Hord either. He is never depicted in canon.
That's not the point. I don't care if we have 1 piece of evidence or 5 million. You could have 5 million suspect, questionable opinions and it wouldn't outweight 1 quote from GL himself. I you could ask 5 million imperials about the Emperor and not one of them will say he's a corrupt sith lord. Does that make it correct?
The fact of the matter is Kreia has never seen Tulak Hord, and any statement she says is naturally subjective. Ergo, inconclusive. Period. End of story. It does not matter whether or not you feel it should be made conclusive or whether or not it makes sense. It's questionable.
Do we have any idea how powerful the KotOR era masters are in the grand scheme of things? Considering the Jedi Order lost many powerful masters and the trove of information on Ossus just 40 years earlier, it would make little sense in the way of comparing "many powerful masters."
Anakin/Vader defeated Count Dooku, Cin Drallig, and hunted down several Jedi masters described as "powerful," but that's not saying much.
You have to take into account circumstance, context, and continuity. The three C's.
There's a difference between legendary for his time and legendary for the grand scale of SW continuity. Exar falls in the latter category. For Revan to do the same, he'll need some more evidence in his favor.
Where was a claim like that ever mentioned without context?
Nowhere. It does not prove he's stronger than Exar, and that's the point being made.
The "Revan was power" quote more than likely refers to his potential and future.
And he did kill Jedi, because he did have a stint as a Dark Lord, that doesn't mean he ended the game in the Dark Side ending though.
How is the statement on Tulak Hord less subjective?
In this case, Kreia is making a direct comparison out of experience between the Exile and her former students, which include Revan. She has first hand evidence and it is a conclusive statement.
When Kreia says "Tulak was the best lightsaber duelist of the Ancient Sith" it's very ambiguous.
First off, the rest of them used swords, so again, the point doesn't exist. Secondly, how would she know how Tulak would stack up against people that were not in his lifespan? She doesn't. She is merely speculating. Tulak never fought Naga Sadow, for example.
Thirdly, she has never even seen Tulak fight. Every evidence she has is from her own opinion. Again, it's a dubious source, like all character quotes are. Whether you like it or agree with it is irrelevant.
Then it's a pointless assumption. First off, how is this conclusive? If many people believed Malak was equally responsible, it indicates Revan did not turn the tide by himself. We also know The Exile was a general under Revan.
Again, the point is moot.
Which flawed bits of logic? I've justified all of my points.
And if you are trying to say where someone argued that Tulak was a horrible duelist, you'll have to quote it. You're misinterpretting it, perhaps because you like Revan, or perhaps some other impediment. But no one said "Tulak Hord sucks."
I said the equivalent of "Tulak Hord is an unknown who does not guarantee Revan victory in any way, shape, or form."
It's not wrong per se. Knowledge does not automatically become power. It has to be applied, and Revan does not show instances where he applied the knowledge he raided from Korriban or Malachor, while someone like Exar has shown his power numerous times.
Those points were never contested. They are event based points that are agreed upon.
For Tulak, we have one person argue that he's the best thing since sliced bread. That one person was never around at his time and naturally would not have the knowledge to compare his fighting ability to other prominent sith lords. So she would know how?
Perhaps Tulak was the most prolific, but to argue that he could beat anyone else's ass because of Kreia's quote is faulty.
As I already said, arguing factual/event-based argumens likely qualifies as part of the storyline. Arguing "Tulak Hord owns" or "Revan is a sabergod!" are not. For example, Naga Sadow says the Empire has not conquered new systems in however long, that's factual, event-based arguments that fit into storyline. Naga Sadow saying "I am the greatest" obviously has its flaws.
The quantity of sources is completely irrelevant.
The honus is on you to prove a positive. Asking the opposition to prove a negative is logical fallacy.
When did I ever claim it would make Revna more powerful? And Kreia her statements are considered Cannon on other matters so why not this one?
Where the hell did the number things come from? I couldn't care less how many people said anything, I care who said those things. Yoda said Obi Wan could not beat Sidious this is accepted, perhaps Obi Wan could have beaten Sidious in a fight. Probably not but have you seen it? No, does it not count because of that? Because thats basically what you are saying.
Do we have any idea how powerful the masters in the time of Kun were in the grand scale of things, do we have any idea how powerful Yoda is in the grand scale of things, perhaps he would get tooled by any normal Sith of Exar or Revan his time. You can't prove anything with this.
Read what I quoted from Sorgo.. .He said it. And Again I never argued that it would make Revan more powerful. I argued against people saying it made no difference.
So know we trust the oppinion of a bunch of soldiers who fought under Revan and Malak, who obviously thought of Malak as a hero because he was there with them on the front lines more then the oppinion of the devs, generals, Jedi Masters and a Mandelorian general who would later on become Mandalore himself?
Besides wasn't it you who said in game quotes do not matter?
How? Well Kreia has no concern about Tulak Hord or his feelings she has no reason to lie, she has the knowledge from historical sources, the statement on Revan and the Exile however were made against the Exile after they had gone through a lot, after which Kreia purposly did not kill him. Any statement she made about him can be doubted, not to mention the fact that it can be doubted if she had seen Revan in recent years, so that makes her statement on the Exile more powerful inconclusive at the very least.
her statement about Tulak however was a historical statement, with no reason to lie and nothing to argue it.
None of those people really have the objective knowledge to know, they are not generals they are not people in high rankings, they are captains pilots soldiers... There statements are biased and flawed, unlike the statements from Jedi Masters, Mandelorian Generals and Republic generals. The exile has nothing to do with this at all, I really don't see how the point is moot, if anything your own counter argument is because it is you who said that in game quotes from characters do not matter.
And I never claimed Revan would win because of Tulak Hord, Never once. However you and Sorgo both said that Tulak Hord was not a powerful fighter because he lived in an era where there could have been a lot of swordfighters. Which makes no difference.
Kreia is also the only one that claims Revan took Ajunta Pall his blade. Kreia her quote on Ragnos has been used in more then a few debates about Ragnos and her quote about the ancients toying with the people of today has been used as well. Very likely by you as well, why the difference here? Tulak Hord being great does not make Revan beat Kun, so why in Heavens name would you argue against the only source we have, and call it flawed because of that?
When sadow states that, he is stating an historical fact, I could now very well ask you to prove that. Its the exact same thing as you are doing, why in heavens name would I need to prove a quote put in historical context about somebody she has no relationship with right. When its the only source we have, you need to prove it wrong.
You are asking me to prove the only source we have right? When you yourself say the source is wrong without showing evidence just saying that perhaps it could be wrong becuase of some things that could perhaps have been a lie or faulty information. If thats how debating works then its really a stupid idea to continue debating.
Well, this debate has veered of course, let me divert it back to the subject, gentlemen.
Revan vs Kun
1) Whether or not Tulak is the greatest duelist known is irrelevant. What matters is that his skill with the lightsaber, at the very LEAST, is extroardinary. Revan has Hord's holocron, since he took it from aspiring sith student Lashowe. Since he studied from the holocron, his lightsaber ability has undoubtedly improved to say the least.
2)The "Exile" being more poweful than Revan is frankly complete BS. In KOTOR 2 I never heard Kreia explicitly state that the Exile was Revan's superior.
3)When Revan regained his memories and turned back to the lightside, he HAS grown stronger. I need proof that at this point, Exar is STILL Revan's superior. Otherwise I will discard any point's to refute Revan's weakness simply as opinion.
You don't even have prove that Revan has the freaking holocron... He probably does, but thats not going to cut it in a debate. Point moot.
Kreia calls the exile her greatest student just before she dies... This statement can be doubted a lot, but it has been made.
Three things wrong with this.
1.) Revan hasn't officialy turned to the light side.
2.) You need to prove Revan grew enough in power to beat Exar. We don't know how much more powerful he became, so its not up to us to argue Kun could still beat him. You need to prove otherwise.
3.) I don't really have a three, but saying "there are 2 things wrong with that" just doesn't sound as good.
You don't even have prove that Revan has the freaking holocron... He probably does, but thats not going to cut it in a debate. Point moot.
I am coming to the most logical conclusion from the canon ending of KOTOR. We can't be one hundred percent sure about it, but we have to make assumptions, in this case.
Kreia calls the exile her greatest student just before she dies... This statement can be doubted a lot, but it has been made.
Kreia did not "teach" Revan to become the dark lord of the Sith. When Revan did that he became his own teacher, he was no longer Kreia's student. Same deal when he became stronger after KOTOR, Kreia did not teach him anything, and he was no longer her student.
1.) Revan hasn't officialy turned to the light side.
It's Canon. It was LFL's official stance on Revan in KOTOR.
2) If we don't know enough about Revan, than we can't simply conclude that Kun is his superior. From his actions in the Star Forge (justified by LFL), I have enough information that Revan is stronger than Kun.
No we don't... But even if Revan would have Tulak Hord his holocron it would prove nothing. Personally I think Revan is at least equal and possibly better with a lightsaber then Kun, this however does not grand him victory as he's still outclassed with the force. Even if Revan does have Tulak Hord his holocron, even if the legend about Tulak was 100% true, even if Revan spend all his time after the Star Forge till the time he got his memorry back studying the holocron (which is just an incredibly strange and stupid thing to say) even then he would not be able to beat Exar Kun with the force.
So it really makes no difference.
Doesn't change the fact that she said it. Like I said the truth behind the statement can be doubted... But it doesn't mean the statement wasn't made like you claimed.
Source? Link? Quote?
Saying you have prove but not providing it, won't convince anybody.
WTF? Show me where it's proven that Revan has created or even used a unique style and has mastered it to the extent Exar Kun has. Show me where Revan has tooled the de facto, 600 year old Grandmaster of the Jedi Order (a much stronger Jedi Order than existed in KOTOR times. KOTOR-era Jedi were weakened precisely because of Exar Kun) in seconds with his lightsaber after taking the fight seriously. Show me canonical proof that Revan's anywhere near Kun's level. There. Isn't. Any.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
He did defeat Malak in a lightsaber fight, after fighting his way through a bunch of opponents when Malak was powered up, the same Malak who defeated Kavar (the greatest fighter in the order at that time). He also had battle pre-cog possibly the greatest pre-cog ever which would allow him to see what Exar is doing before Exar does it. Far greater then Jedi reflexes it would give him a huge edge in a lightsaber fight.
Echani could kill Jedi because of that pre-cog... Imagine a powerful Jedi with it. He was the greatest lightsaber user in his era, unchallenged really. The guy has some skills with a lightsaber, with the force he would still lose though and with a lightsaber I think he is about equal if not a little bit better then Exar. About 52% -> 48%. Add the force and Revan is screwed.
Feb 6th, 2006 08:06 PM
