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Originally posted by The Merchant
Dang, Nai made a beautiful rebuttal. Hmmm, Exar Kun beating ROTS Palpatine is becoming more and more likely.

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Originally posted by Nai

Speed

I've already provided a "speed feat" for Kun, although I have mentioned myself, that it probably isn't the most impressive demonstration of Force speed. Yet, you might watch Ulic Qel-Droma (Exar Kun's equal in terms of lightsaber combat) in action:

When being confronted with Warb Null and five soldierst of the Naddist Cult...
(please log in to view the image)

...Ulic's reaction looks like that:
(please log in to view the image)

So let me point that out for you: The two brighter spots in the middle of the circle of Ulic's blade are the two missing soldiers. So Ulic hacks five soldiers to pieces in split seconds, indicated by the fact, that he manages to cut two of them down, before the weapon of his previous victim is even on its way to the ground. I'd say, that is even faster than Sidious "speed blitz", that – according to the "Revenge of the Sith"-novelization – looked like this:

"Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps ofthe horns, severed just below the chin. Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!" The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor. "It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbledfrom his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head."... hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still." - Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Emphasis mine.
This is what happens between Sidious hitting Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar. Kit Fisto speaks the name of his fallen comrade, the corpse does collapse, the onlookers notice the sigh escaping from the decapitated body and then Kolar is hit. Ulic kills two people before the guy he killed first can drop his weapon...

I hope it is clear enough now, why I don't see Sidious winning this.

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So Exar Kun is the "most powerful and dangerous of all Sith Lords". And even if you want to believe the argument put forth, that the "most powerful" has been "retconned" – that is certainly not the case, when it comes to the "most dangerous" part of the quote. And there is more than enough reason to assume, that this is a rather accurate description.

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Originally posted by The_Tempest
Suuuure you don't want a rebuttal. That's not something a devil's advocate would seek in the spirit of debate.

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Ronan gave Thanos the finger and it took the power of an Infinity Gem to kill him. Meanwhile Loki was getting punked by Hawkeye, outwitted by BW, and generally disrespected by anyone in the film with a speaking role. Ronan was manly AF.

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No kidding you were paraphrasing Loki. I'm just saying Loki was treated like a pansy; not an image you'd probably want to associate with.

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Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
How is this even here. Palatine has been stated the most powerful Sith Lord of all time by ROTS.That includes Exar Kun.

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Kun while powerful isn't on sidiosu level or even close. He is below. In terms of TK, lightning telepathy, all the conventional powers, Sidious is the clear winner. Kuns Sith sorcery really will boil down to simply a distraction. Sidious strength of will and knowledge of telepathy(battle meditation) and knowledge of sith sorcery will allow him to disable Kuns illusions.

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As duelist Sidious is again superior. He is way more versatile than Kun, having knowledge of all seven forms. Let's be honest while I agree Kun did surpass vodo si ask bass, in their last battle isn't the only way he won was by hammering vodo into submission by breaking his quarter staff, and having to pull out duel blades or a saber staff, something no one else has experience with? Sidious has both knowledge and experience with dual blades, and knowledge fighting against and training someone in saber staff combat.

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Sidious is also physically better with force augmentation. He is much faster than Kun being able to fade in and out of existence own his own speed. Able to push back the muscle tank and body builder savage oppress with one hand with ease, same with maul, also able to show his superior strength over maul in their duel.

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Originally posted by Nai
Pardon me. You accused me of wanting to bait a rebuttal out of you, to which I replied, that I don't care if you reply or not. And I don't. I also don't care if anybody else replies, although that would be "appreciated".

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Originally posted by Nai
As I said: Loki was confronted with opponents superior to himself in certain regards, that he didn't expect (and respect) because of his arrogance. Ronan's final moments were stupidity distilled. He is about to wipe out all live on the planet, archieving all he wanted and then stops because somebody dances. Seriously? And after all: Loki ended up as King of Asgard, while Ronan was blown to pieces.

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Originally posted by Nai
I'm in great fear for my image and my masculinity in general. MCU Loki still has more fangirls than Sidious.

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Originally posted by Nai
Pardon me. You accused me of wanting to bait a rebuttal out of you, to which I replied, that I don't care if you reply or not. And I don't. I also don't care if anybody else replies, although that would be "appreciated".



As I said: Loki was confronted with opponents superior to himself in certain regards, that he didn't expect (and respect) because of his arrogance. Ronan's final moments were stupidity distilled. He is about to wipe out all live on the planet, archieving all he wanted and then stops because somebody dances. Seriously? And after all: Loki ended up as King of Asgard, while Ronan was blown to pieces.



I'm in great fear for my image and my masculinity in general. MCU Loki still has more fangirls than Sidious.

@EmperorSidious2:

Good god. How about at least pretending to do some spell-checking before hitting the reply button?



That has been stated by characters within the story, that could be wrong. So?

Fair enough for now.


Kun's Sith magic has nothing to do with illusions. How about reading the stuff you want to reply to before hitting the reply button?

Or how about you calm down and just look at it. Sith Magic, illusions, etc all fall into that single category and it's just easier to lablet it that way.




Again: How about reading the stuff you reply to, before hitting the reply button. Kun's unique style is fundamentally different from the usual handling of the weapon. And his weapon itself is also unique, being a single-hilt design with adjustable blade length / density.

So you honestly think that me going back and reading something that everyone knows about is going to change anything. I already know Kun has a unique way of using his style with a unique weapon to him and how he uses it. I'm telling you that it really won't help him against Sidious. Sidious whether conventional or not cancels out his way of fighting with his versatility and experience. His weapon while unique won't come as much as a surprise to Sidious as you think as while he can adjust the blade setting with a flip of a switch, however that isn't really going to help him against Sidious. When Kun created the blade it was unique for that error. The entire idea of a double bladed saber or even jar Kai was in a way foreign. With Sidious it's the same as breathing. He's most likely the greatest jar Kai duelist of all time possibly. So really the only thing that could take Sidious off guard would be him being able to change the settings whenever however that won't save Kun. It might help but won't win.



Again: How about reading the stuff you reply to, before hitting the reply button. The speed of Sidious is not uncommon for force users, which I've already proven. In fact, it is apparently beaten by Ulic, who is Kun's equal. And the same Ulic can't be contained by a being capable of lifting five humans and a rather huge metal pieces from the ground with one hand.

You do understand Sidious is not a normal force weilder. He is the most powerful dark sider(besides the ones, spirits etc) to exist. Really that idea just doesn't hold water. Sidious power in the force is greater than ulics so with that Sidious speed would be greater. Also sidiosu strength would also be greater as he was able to once again push savage and maul of him with one hand with little effort, and push maul back with his own strength.

I also love the description of Opress as a "body builder"...

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Originally posted by Emperordmb
You don't get to speak of the MCU until you've seen Age of Ultron (please log in to view the image)

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Originally posted by carthage
Just saw that yesterday. Pretty solid film. Ultron was a better character than a powerful villain though imo

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Originally posted by Nai
My dear Darth Thor.
I was rather certain that, giving we were discussing combat here, it was pretty clear, that, when I was talking "Sith skills", I was talking about those that come in handy in direct confrontation. Yet, you use the better part of your posting to demonstrate, that Maul was also capable of manipulation. Nice thing. Doesn't help him in combat and is, therefor, entirely irrelevant to our debate. So I left the parts in question out. Which first leads me there:



Since Sidious' training is all that Maul knew it is pretty clear, that he couldn't have used anything else to archive his goals. However. He, thus far, just demonstrated his combat related skills, some telekinesis and manipulation. None of that even remotely on a level to "rival" Sidious. And in that regard, you left the deciding sentence out, which I have introduced to the debate earlier:

"Remember the first and only reality of the Sith. There can only be two. And you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced." - Sidious in TCW "The Lawless".

The reason for Sidious to label him "rival" is, that Maul doesn't longer belong to the usual master - apprentice duo that form the Sith Order. The action of seperating himself from his masters command, having been replaced, and training an apprentice for himself (his brother) are enough reasons for Sidious to remove him from the picture.



None of that suggest that Maul was ever trained as a "real Sith Lord" by Sidious. With "all types of Sith ways" Filoni is clearly referring to manipulation ("not the least of which...") and not advanced force techniques. Which is entirely irrelevant anyway, since Filoni's words aren't canon.



Maul's combat prowess was never in question. His ability to use the Force was. None of the two Jedi masters have attacked him directly with the Force. Assant used it for building a trap that almost killed Maul, Kenobi used it in an unorthodox fashion in order to defeat him. As we have seen, Sidious can simply own him at will with any kind of force attack, while he is incapable of doing the same while in combat with more powerful Force users (Mace, Yoda).



Force Lightning and the ability to deflect it would be a start, yes. Because Sidious himself labeled that an ability reserved for advanced Sith studends / Sith Lords:

"Those who follow the dark side may learn to release pure energy from their fingertips This Force lightning can be directed at a target and cause great pain as it siphons off the living energy and eventually kills its victim. Knowledge of this power has long been limited to the Sith Lords. No, you are not prepared for any more information at this time. - Darth Sidious as Holocron Gatekeeper, Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force, p.176

Emphasis mine. Apparently, Maul was one of the individuals "not prepared" for learning the ability.



Yes. I've cited it already, multiple times in fact:

"I too him [Darth Maul] from his homeworld, Iridonia, and raised him as I would construct the perfect weapon. I trained him in numerous exotic and forbidden martial arts, disciplined him constantly, and personally applied the Sith tattoos that were evidence of his complete dedication to the dark side.[...]Maul completed his basic training several years before the Battle of Naboo, and served me well as an assassin and extension of my will. Als loyal as he was, I made no effort to caution him when I foresaw his death in a duel with the Jedi on Naboo[...]Ultimately, Maul was nothing more than a tool[...]" - Darth Sidious, Star Wars: Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force, p.169

Emphasis mine.
Sidious did train Maul as a weapon. He makes no notice of having trained his apprentice in Sith ways (especially advanced force techniques) but just talks about martial arts. Furthermore he states that Maul had just completed his basic training some years before his death and calls him a "tool".

Nothing of that does much to contradict the idea that Maul was no "real Sith Lord".



Nope. I'm still trying to put things into perspective.
Maul just fought Jedi (and people that weren't force sensitives) in a sucessful fashion. Once confronted with a powerful Dark Side adversary, he gets owned. Much like he would get owned by anybody capable of willing to use force attacks against him.

Following that line of thought, Sidious ability to defeat him with force attacks is certainly less impressive than some people would like it to be. That's all.

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Originally posted by carthage
Just saw that yesterday. Pretty solid film. Ultron was a better character than a powerful villain though imo