Endless Mike: If you didn't bother to read the above posts, then read them. Assuming you bothered to read the posts above, then you should have noticed that I didn't invite debate from other posters. So kindly step out. This debate isn't about whether its reasonable to assume lasers move at light speed. At all.
Yes between the time it took for the go ahead and the reaction to pull a trigger Logan had already oved from a seated position over the bar and to the other side before bullets were even in the air..... And yet it's a slower than bullet time feat. Well done.
Your positions officially ridiculous.
No you think it's more reasonable that the shooters waited to fire or something even though they all had guns pointed in on Logan at close range...
So tell me, if Wolverine wasn't moving faster than they processed the order to shoot, and WASN'T outspeeding incoming bullets, then what the hell WAS he doing?
Say "go" squeeze your finger and then tell me Wolverine moving FASTER than that is not relative to bullet time... Yeah your position is ridiculous.
He does actually you're just ignoring them as is usually the case.
So in other words "aim dodging" need not apply.. thank you.
If it takes you a full second to squeeze your finger on the word go it's NO WONDER you feel this isn't an impressive enough feat..
Ridiculous.
Which, if he did would mean that he did so between the call to fire and a squeeze of a finger already pressed on a trigger I.E. faster than the electrical impulses in multiple attacker's brains could process the order which they were ALREADY anticipating and makes it even more impressive than a bullet feat.
Yes I have, you just keep chosing to ignore them.
Wolverine was walking away with his back completely turned to the terrorist as the terrorist was picking up the gun so 3 is out and if 1 and 2 were the case either of them would jusitfy bullet speed there so I'm not sure how you think proposing either of those scenarios helps your case. And it's not like Wolverine just moved his neck to the side he completely turned his head over his left shoulder while tilting his head at a 45.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on May 25th, 2009 at 09:58 AM
You can see Wolverine's torso and arms covering a large bit of the area that got shot on the man behind him. Even if he was already moving in the scan he's being fired upon, having successfully evaded the gunfire FROM THAT POINT STILL counts as moving at bullet speed.
WOW... speculation based off something that was never stated or remotely even implied... thank you for once again showing us how far you're willing to go to further your arguments.
And before.. Once again, he dodged multiple lasers the first time around. He got GRAZED due to the number and the surprise but he was still sucessful in dodging multiples of them at once.. Of course it's like you to ignore this for the lowballing to actually mean something.
It was the first.. Among many that he DODGED at the same time....
And he already tripped the lasers. they were going by the time he began moving in.
Again, no evidence or reference to this "timing" you're making up on the fly.
And from where right? because as he stated... it was CROSSFIRE.... and... WHERE THE HELL did you read that there were multiple tripwires/lines? He tripped them coming in and then you clearly see the blasts are in front of him. He had to avoid them to get to through the corridor. He dodged laser blasts for at LEAST 200 feet as stated.. ON PANEL... no more no less... stop adding in your own storyline and context to a feat that is clear cut and clearly presented. You're reading into this WAY too much for the sake of discrediting it..
That Wolverine thinks his "SPEED and STRENGTH" make him faster than laser blasts for a short period of time.. What? You think this is the first time he's stated as much? He's flat out said how easy it was dodging single laser blasts at the X-mansion.
Of course it does, because you're reading WAY too much into a feat that never suggested that premise at all.
Of course it would be much more reasonable... IF IT WERE TRUE..... You're confused here. We're not talking about whether or not these feats are reasonable, in case you've forgotten I already full well proposed that they're stupid and nobody on Wolvie, Caps level or otherwise SHOULD have FTL reflexes less they use the speed force but "reasonable" doesn't matter here... You asked for feats I've supplied them to you and you're adding your own context to the scans... It's quite disengenuous.
No, I'm just inadvertently exposing how ridiculous the lengths you'll go to to keep from conceding that Wolverine's as fast as Captain America.. I know it must be a shock...
According to you....
But since Wolverine accredited staying "two steps ahead" to his SPEED AND STRENGTH, and said nothing obout anticipation the REASONABLE thing to consider was that Wolverine's ability to avoid being hit was due to his SPEED AND STRENGTH.... and that the reference was his assertion that he was faster than the beams, again he's already said that dodging lasers is a peach.
you're the one who just said there was some preconcieved plan, implied that there were multiple trip lines and just suggested that Wolverine was referencing his anticipation when he said nothing of the sort.. maybe you should go back in.....
It does actually... because as you and I both know as well as anyone else that's been following along with this little grudge-fest that this is about whether or not Wolverine is faster or as fast as Thor in combat... Again it's the entire reason why we're here now.
The weakness of my argument? I don't have to make up entire scenarios for feats that never happened. I don't have to ignore feats and I'm not the one who thinks Captain America has bullet time reflexes but that it's not "reasonable" for Wolverine to..... Pathetic Onedumb... moreso than usual.
I'm not doing this in another thread you dunce I'm doing it here and I made that clear with you.
Prove that Telepathic bolts move at light speed.
Prove that Thor's reaction time is > FTL...
So basically you explain his assessment of his own abilities, the assessment of characters like Spidey and DD who have radar sensors built into them and the assessment that he DODGES in a non partisan narrative only has merit if it doesn't mean what it actually says? And instead means what you want it to? Yeah there you go adding context again...
Once more, if you're conclusion is that Wolverine didn't do these feats because he can't, then you're just pulling the same crap you chastized me for before you made this thread.. Nice rhetoric for such arguments by the way. Tell me, do you actually believe in your own bullshit as much as you act like you do or are you just trying to save face at this point? It's okay you can tell me.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on May 25th, 2009 at 10:36 AM
You assume that hearing the leaders' orders automatically translates to electrical impulses travelling from henchmens' brain to fingers. That's a false distinction. And it's neither reliable, nor reasonable. The henchmen's conscious decision to pull the trigger translates to electrical impulses travelling from henchmens' brain to fingers. Here, you must account for the undeniable fact, that the henchmen had to (i) listen to the order, (ii) process their order, (iii) make a conscious decision to shoot and (iv) then pull the trigger.
It's patently absurd to assume that anytime a soldier or gangster who has drawn his gun and hears the order to shoot from their leader, must actually fire their guns only in the space of time it takes for neurons travelling from brain to finger upon that order. Your equivocation is clear. You're using false distinctions to project your own assumptions to fit your interpretation of the scan.
It's unreasonable for you to assume that the henchmen must have reacted in the space of a neuron travelling from brain to finger at the moment of the kill order. Or that Wolverine must have waited at the precise moment of discharge or after the moment of discharge to initiate his evasion. You have no measurable reference which to proclaim either assertion.
If Wolverine has several feats of clearly dodging projectiles AFTER they're fired, it would lend credence to the latter conclusion. You have accused me of ignoring such clear scans. Post them so that we can see.That is still aim dodging.. you're welcome. Because Wolverine dodged out of the way of their aim. He knew where they were generally aiming, his back. He leapt out of the way in both instances to get out of the way of their aim. That's aim dodging. Dodging out of the way of their aim. I don't know how many other different ways to say it.
Between the last panel of the first page and the second panel of the second page, the scene cuts away from Wolverine for one panel. In that panel, the terrorist swings up his arm for full extension and fires a shot. Wolverine could have turned his head in the space. So 3 is not out. Also, the angle of the bullet as depicted suggests that our viewpoint is not strictly perpendicular to the bullet, 45 degrees is being generous. The scan is not conclusive that Wolverine dodged a bullet with FTB reflexes.
I already pointed out that Wolverine's body did not obstruct the trajectory of the bullets which hit the hapless goon in the shoulders. You can clearly see that when you compare the second and third scans. As for the chest shot, Wolverine only had to move his shoulder a few inches. This is not a scan that depicts Wolverine clearly dodging a bullet at the precise moment it's fired or after it's fired because it's clear he was already weaving in and out of his assailants and drawing fire onto each other. http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg
First off, own up to your clear mistake. Wolverine could indeed see. Wolverine saw the japanese letter on the circuit board. He also sees component boxes at hundred foot intervals. Therefore, your assertion that he was moving around in the dark and couldn't see and only relied on his hearing is completely false. Second, as for lasers emitting light for more visibility? Meh. Who cares whether you think that's reasonable or not. Fact is, you made a simple mistake. You just missed the thought bubbles where Wolverine actually states that he sees things. Read your own scans more closely next time.Wolverine talks about component boxes in the first panel of the second page and theorizes that if he takes out enough of them, he'll mix up the signals.
So if I'm in a boxing match, and I possess speed and strength... I am two steps ahead of him?
I don't even know how to dissect that goofy assertion other then engage in simple reading comprehension. Two steps ahead denotes anticipation or planning or advance notice. I've never heard it used to describe physical qualities. I sincerely doubt that Wolverine has demonstrated that he is faster than lasers.It's quite telling that you recognize it's patently absurd to believe street-levelers have FTB or FTL reflexes but at the same time, hold out ambiguous feats as clear proof of FTL reflexes... for Wolverine. Ultimately, whether you realize such conclusions are ridiculous in the first place doesn't matter. Because to you, Wolverine would have needed FTL reflexes to navigate through these cross-beam lasers. What I'm arguing is that there are far more reasonable explanations available which would not force heavy-handed assumptions of FTB or FTL reflexes to make sense of those scans. Furthermore, every scan you've shown so far, has a far more reasonable explanation that can account for the feat that isn't contradicted by anything on-panel, e.g. In the case of the room full of lasers, Wolverine stayed two steps ahead of the lasers with his anticipation. He stated it himself.Please refrain from projecting your silly accusations onto me. I did not start this debate to prove that Cap is faster than Wolverine. I've always argued that unless it clearly shows that a character has not moved at the precise moment or after the precise moment a projectile is discharged, you cannot pass off generic bullet/laser dodging feats as proof of FTB or FTL reflexes. Yes, I showed a scan of Cap doing it once. Now I'll show a scan of Spiderman doing it:
Whether or not you're terrified that I'm surreptitiously proving that Cap and Spidey have greater reflexes than Wolverine is not the point of the debate. We both have agreed that street-levelers dodging/defending against bullets and lasers utilizing FTB or FTL reflexes is absurd. The difference between you and I?
I don't hold out every generic bullet-dodge or laser-dodge as proof of FTB or FTL reflexes unless it's clearly shown that they only dodged/defended it AFTER the projectile is fired. Why? Because there are far more reasonable explanations to explain what happened, e.g. aim dodging, telegraphing, anticipation, merely making an opponent miss.
You have held out several feats as if the more reasonable explanation is FTB or FTL reflexes. Not only is your interpretation of several of these scans patently absurd and outright incorrect, you don't even have any concrete support that proves that Wolverine is capable of FTB or FTL speeds in the first place. This would lend at least some credence that an ambiguous scan could be proof of FTB or FTL reflexes. But you have offered none. Therefore, you're arguing in a vacuum and asking us to give you the benefit of the doubt that, although there's a more reasonable explanation that isn't foreclosed by the scan, FTB or FTL reflexes was the key to a certain feat. That's not proper debating.That may be the reason you're here now because you can't separate out your emotions from the issues at hand. I continually separated out this issue as wholly separate and apart from that debate. This thread's issue is a very simple issue that was supposed to be argued in a very discrete, measured form and no amount of name-calling, ad hominem or straw-manning changes that you have continually diverted from and distracted from it. Please compose yourself. I'm going to ask you to refrain from further name-calling. It's immature. Leave it out of the debate.
I already have proven it with previous scans. And I tried to offer you a separate thread to do it in, but you refused. You want to keep it in this thread? Ok. We will keep it in this thread. And just like you, I desire a fully realized debate on both issues. No distractions. So when we're done with the first issue, then I'll prove it to you again in this very same thread. We'll even get Digi to change the title.
Just as a question.
@ onedumbgo. Is your argument that wolverine
A. Can dodge based on telegraphs only and has no true ftb showings because they were not hit out of sheer luck and/or really bad aim.
B. Can dodge on telegraphs but can and does have ftb showings.
It's seemed at first in this thread you were going with A but then switched to B.
Personally I'd say most heroes
__________________ Quotes from Hia8:
"I claimed that the science is sometimes faulty."
"You don't understand. This is fiction. That means none of this stuff really happened."
"There is no writer to purposely ignore a character's natural ability just because it suits the story."
"in some cases because the writer knows that Character A will dominate Character B easily and refuses to allow this to happen for the sake of the story."
The men had to listen to the order, process the order and pull the trigger. Given that they came to shoot Logan, that they were already facing Logan with fingers pressed on the triggers and at point blank range.... If Logan was able to move himself from a seated position over a table and descend below to the other side before the bullets ever left the barrel Wolverine necessarily HAD to move faster than the guys could process the order to fire. Again... say "go" and squeeze your finger as a reaction. For Wolverine to have done what he did in BETWEEN that span of time you think it's "reasonable" to assume he was moving at less than bullet speed?
Yyyyyeah NO..
Uh no.. you do that crap, not me.
I'm making the only logical alternative to your assessment that it wasn't a bullet-timed feat. Which again IF it wasn't, was something even more impressive.
It's not absurd to assume that someone anticipating an order to fire only needs the time to process that order to perform the action... You do.. your perogative.
Why? Because it doesn't suit your argument well...
Barring moving from point a to point b faster than the goons could process the order to fire... which you don't like... Those are HIS ONLY OPTIONS.....
Again..
1) he doesn't need to dodge something after it's fired to prove he can move as fast as the object itself. And
2) the terrorist feat is one, you ignore the fact that it is one although any alternatives you have to offer to the feat (save 3)only support the fact that it is.
Yeah.... no it's not.
hence the path of their bullets..
:l
I fail to see how knowing that people had guns pinned on him helps his speed in the situation given. It doesn't and it has little to do with aim dodging whatsoever.
Since I cannot prove a negative, it would then be up to you to prove that he DID turn his head in that period of time. Since there's no indication that he did, seeing how the terrorist picking up the gun failed to get him to turn his head, and it would be unreasonable to suggest that he did so "just because" as the terrorist went for full extention is more reasonable to assume he was reacting to the shot fired.. if you would like to pretend otherwise.. your perogative, but that doesn't seem very "reasonable" and we can see how much you like that. The fact is that this COULD very well be a bullet-time feat, and pretty much any inclination of it's context would lend itself to being one.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on May 26th, 2009 at 09:09 AM
1. Given the shot to the goon's torso, Wolverine DID have to move his shoulder and left arm multiple inches out of the line of fire. REGARDLESS of whether he was moving or not, he necessarily had to move or KEEP MOVING outside the scope of the bullets to avoid those shots himself.
2. We can see that he had to move in such a fashion AS the bullets were firing.
3. Given both 1. and 2 . this is a bullet time feat. Distance or the stature of how impressive you assess the feat to be does not matter in the least. Wolverine is doing what you think he can not.
4. (Since you felt so inclined to hold up feats by artistic depictions in every facet for the terrorist feat) If you line up the barrels of the guns to their target they are lined up perfectly on Wolverine. He dodged the damn bullets as they were being fired at him.
You're right... because it was NEVER MY assertion that Wolverine couldn't see.... it was that he couldn't aim dodge them in a dark room coming at him from all sides.... Whether Wolverine could see what was on the walls is irrelivent. He WAS in a dark room and he COULDN'T see the LASERS when they started firing. This of course is just another silly Red Herring for you to draw attention to something that matters very little.
Or maybe you could read my arguments more closely... I never said Wolverine couldn't see anything, I said that the room was a dark room, which it was, and that he couldn't use aim dodging, which he couldn't..... Now whether or not Wolverine couldn't recognize the lasers all around him based on strictly design or the fact that it was dark... The fact remains that he didn't know what he was even dealing with until they began to attack him, and he makes that fairly clear given how surprised he is when they start firing off... He necessarily could not aim dodge there..
.... Okay?...
Are you already out of the way of his punches when he's started throwing them because of sheer speed?
Then yeah, you would be.
I understand what the phrase typically implies.. but please stop equivocating your positions so innaccurately.
Yes in some uses of the term it certainly does. Yet it is ALSO used to define literally the physical state of not being in a particular place compared to a second party by the time that second party has arrived at that place.
"He's already gone?"
"Yeah he's always two steps ahead of us." The term does not ALWAYS have to be a statement defined by planning or anticipation and if you think that's the case then your only proving that comprehension to be rather poor.
Well.. again anyway.
He's stated he can dodge them while dodging them.
He's dodged them in mass.
He's blocked them in multiples.
He's been outright stated to dodge them on panel.
But none of this matters right?
A narrative panel flat out stating Wolverine dodges rays is not ambiguous.
Wolverine reacting to lasers as they're fired upon him is not ambiguous, nor is dipping under machine gun fire.. you've just muddled them up with so much that isn't there you've convinced yourself somehow that they are.
which he would have...
Again, you try to "make sense" of comic book related material.. and again, you only try to do this "... with Wolverine." You certainly have no qualms relaxind your suspension of disblief when it concerns Spidey and Cap apparently.
And, there's more reasonable explanations.. sure. BUT;
Only if you add context that isn't stated or if you read into the material to draw a conclusion that isn't already there. That's practically a retcon. The fact is however, that while there may be more reasonable explanations available by way of this effort, these explanations are pure speculations that necessarily HAVE to be formed outside of the material that's ACTUALLY presented.
It's only a different explanation, not a "more reasonable" one... Wolverine being faster than people can process pulling a trigger but slower than a bullet isn't more reasonable. People taking up to a full second to pull a trigger on a command even when they're already anticipating the action and the command is NOT "more reasonable"
And.... Anticipation was never a reason which Wolverine accredited to avoiding the blasts and he COULN'T anticipate the initial blasts, which he also dodged (though you seem to only fixate on the one blast that managed to graze his wrist)....
Oh Wolverine DID state he was two steps ahead of the lasers..But... He NEVER stated that it was due to anticipation, that's just context that you added to the material which doesn't exist.
No you did it to prove Thor was. Cap being faster than Wolverine is just something that haphazardly got in the way....
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
Last edited by jinzin on May 26th, 2009 at 11:40 AM
Yes I would be afraid of Spiderman having greater reflexes than Wolverine.... Spiderman... the guy with practical precog.... FUGGIN SPIDERMAN! Yes that TERRRRRIFIES ME that he'd have faster reflexes..
And no, it amuses me that you've argued that it's rediculous for Wolverine to have FTB FTL reflexes but at the same time support your argument against Wolverine by using a Cap feat.. The sheer notion that you think Wolverine's speed simply can NOT be as fast as blahblahblah but that Cap's can and that's okay.. it amuses me. Nothing but ridiculous rational for the rhetoric you claim to support.
Not in the examples I've presented so your assessment of "generic" feats is irrelivent to this discussion.
Like assuming context that isn't on the page?
Oh wait, that'd be you.
Except for being outright stated to dodge ray blasts? Which you also contorted to fit your agenda....
yeah, that's what these are.
Since there ARE scans that aren't ambiguous and since there ARE impartial narratives describing what you think he can't do as what he CAN... This rant is pretty irrelivent here.
Which is why I went out of my way to make not one but two threads to engage you in an argument right? No wait, that's you again.
And I couldn't care less. You made this thread and assumed it to ONLY be by your rules on your terms and only about what you wanted to argue. Well it's not... the entire reason why we're here is because you flipped out in a thread that had nothing to even do with you. The entire reason why this FTL debate has started between us is because you assured yourself that Thor displayed such a feat against Pheonix and Wolverine couldn't produce something similar.
So once again I'll ask you to prove that:
1) Telepathic bolts of energy travel at FTL
and
2) That Thor's reactive speed is faster than an instantaneous result...
Once again, it's your rhetoric vs. your record, and they never match.
This argument has crossed over several threads it didn't START here, you just decided to condense it here or nitpick a piece of it here.
YOU lead by example having resorted to the name calling first. To the continuous insults to my intelligence and my recall. YOU lead by a mature example of misrepresenting my argument or my POV, over and over again after baiting me here to begin with.
I had not resorted to name calling until tis very post. Calling your argument pathetic is not me losing composure nor is it ad hominem and you blowing it out of proportion here is nothing more than another projection of yourself upon me and another red herring.
Yeah? no you haven't. I'll await with eagerness.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
^ As this only serves to clarify my positions which may be unclear when there's such proclivity between jinzin and myself to post walls of text, I don't see the harm in answering these questions:
A. So far, of the scans shown, I argue that telegraphing is the most reasonable interpretation to explain those scans. This is especially so since telegraphing is not foreclosed by the circumstances of each situation and I've not seen other scans that clearly prove Wolverine has FTB feats. I've not mentioned sheer luck. Although possible, I'd rather not reach that far. I've suggested that people could have simply missed. Not all gunmen in comics possess unerring aim. But for the most part, it's merely another plausible explanation, when the shooter is not clearly depicted as either i) having aimed unerringly or ii) being an expert marksman.
B. I've not agreed that any of the scans shown by jinzin are clear FTB showings. I've posted scans of what I believe are clear FTB showings to distinguish how they are different from the ones jinzin offered. Despite how he and I both agree such abilities should be beyond street-levelers, you just can't argue with how clearly depicted certain scans are, i.e. Cap's and Spidey's. You can dismiss it as PIS, but there's no arguing, both characters only began dodging after a bullet was discharged.
The crux of the debate is, jinzin would still hold out generic bullet/laser dodging feats that are ambiguous as to when a character began dodging, as if they were FTB or FTL feats. As if the only key to each of those feats was clearly FTB or FTL speed rather than telegraphing, anticipation, etc. He's been posting several scans arguing that the only reasonable explanation is FTB or FTL speed. I present for everyone's consideration, that there are far more reasonable explanations that are not foreclosed by the circumstances in the scans jinzin offered. Does that make sense?
jinzin: My initial rebuttal still stands. Just because his back was turned in those scans, didn't mean Wolverine couldn't anticipate when or where they were going to fire. You seem to have admitted as much. My second rebuttal still stands as well. Because you seem to have admitted that it was a false distinction when you measured the space of time it takes for the shooters to process the order by referencing the space of time necessary for neurons to travel from brain to finger. Such a false distinction clearly ignored the time it takes for the henchmen to i) process the orders of "remove him" or "kill the intruder" and ii) make a conscious decision to pull the trigger and then iii) for the neurons to travel. You cannot accurately measure the time it took for i) and ii) to occur. It could have been tenths of a second. It could have been a full second. Either is enough for Wolverine to jump out of the way. But moving forward...
Analogizing that space of time to me saying "go" and squeezing my finger as a reaction is a facile oversimplification. Because I know going into it, when I say "go," I must pull the trigger as quickly as possible. The shooters weren't necessarily in that situation. They are told to "remove him" or "kill the barbarian," in other words, "go." But do such orders necessarily mean that they must pull the trigger as quickly as possible? Did their respective leaders precondition them to react to such words with immediate trigger-pulling? No, not necessarily.
Consider this: They all clearly outgunned a stranger and had him dead to rights. Any other person would have been helpless in that situation. And they didn't know that he was superhuman. What reason would they have to believe or know that they must pull the trigger as fast as humanly possible? Are you merely projecting your assumption that they pulled the trigger as quickly as possible to twist the scene to fit your assumptions, without proving it? Looks like it.
Consider it from another angle: Is it possible that in the scans, it took the two shooters 0.3 seconds to fire their bullets upon the order and that Wolverine used the 0.3 seconds to jump out of the way? Sure. What exactly in those scans precludes a possible split-second's window of time between leader's order and shooting? What exactly in those scans forces us to conclude that those shooters must have pulled the triggers so quickly, that there isn't even a split-second of lag time?
Finally, consider this: The leader of the second gang of shooters, Dragonhead, has issued the kill order while walking away. From what I can tell of this page in isolation, Dragonhead has exited the bar. Otherwise, he'd be yelling at his henchmen for having missed. Has he left the bar? If he has, then that automatically precludes those particular shooters from having pulled the trigger as fast as humanly possible upon the kill order. Show us the next pages, please. http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/...v2133p03gm1.jpg http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/...sidestepkq1.jpg
Not trying to be obtuse here. But you're the one who offered this feat as absolutely clear proof of FTB reflexes. However, that proposition necessarily relies on Wolverine having not moved his head in the space of time the terrorist reached full extension and proper aim. Therefore, the burden is actually on you to prove a positive. That because Wolverine couldn't possibly or reasonably turned his head, it's a FTB speed feat. It's your piece of evidence for your argument. My only burden is to argue that it's both possible and reasonable that Wolverine did turn his head slightly in that space of time. Because that reasonable possibility necessarily negates the value of this scan being "absolutely clear" proof of FTB speed, I've sustained my burden.
1. Yes.
2. What forces you to conclude that the chest shot was being fired in the second panel as opposed to just the shoulder shots?
3. Considering it's possible that Wolverine could move his shoulder down a few inches and that the chest shot may not necessarily have been fired in the second panel, it doesn't have to be a bullet time feat.
4. Actually, now that you point it out, if you take the angle of the gun on the right, he's aiming too far to the left and too far down to even line up a shot on Wolverine's back. Leinel Yu + proper perspective = phail. And this isn't about what I think Wolverine can do. It's about proving whether or not you can present this scan as absolute proof of FTB reflexes. http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg
There's nothing to suggest that he couldn't see the lasers at any time throughout those pages. Just because he hears a motion sensor in the first panel of the first page doesn't mean he couldn't see the lasers in the second panel of the second page or any subsequent panel. We know it's not dark enough for him to be unable to read japanese lettering and see circuit boards. So if it's not very dark and since he can see the layout of the floor and circuit board sensors... why couldn't he aim dodge by way of timing the triggering of subsequent lasers? After all, having been grazed by the first round of lasers, he should have the timing down, right? He heard when he tripped and saw how quick the lasers are activated. So why wouldn't "stay two steps ahead o the laser-blasts" denote anticipation?
If it what the phrase typically implies, I don't see why my interpretation would be equivocation.
True. How does that interpretation preclude the use of anticipation and timing to be physically two steps ahead? If he is physically two steps ahead by the time the lasers arrive... then he isn't dodging lasers reflexively. He's literally two steps ahead of the spot where the lasers are firing. Therefore, the aim of the lasers is off. He dodged the lasers by not being where the lasers were aiming. That's aim dodging. And to know you're physically two steps ahead of the spot where you know a laser will blast at, suggests that you anticipated that is where the laser would blast at.
Cmon. It may not be hyperbole, but it may also denote the idea of aim dodging as well. Therefore, it's quite a stretch to ask us to interpret that as, "He dodges rayblasts with FTL speed." You haven't proven that such a notion like aim-dodging is precluded by that statement, so it's not absolute proof of FTL reflexes.
Anyway, I'll respond to your third post later. Late to a baseball game.
You need to stop projecting. I'm not arguing that it's ridiculous for Wolverine to have FTB/FTL reflexes. We already both agree that would be ridiculous. What I'm arguing is that it's unreasonable for you to keep passing off ambiguous and generic bullet-dodging feats as if they absolutely proved FTB/FTL speed. There are reasonable alternatives to explain such feats.
I've only posted the Cap/Spidey scans to highlight and frame how ambiguous your scans have been so far. Just because you're posting strictly Wolverine feats makes no difference to me. To highlight this, let's switch gears for one moment. Let us assume for the sake of argument, we've never seen a clear FTB feat from Cap. Now compare these scans with each other:
Here, the mercenaries similarly have their guns drawn on Cap. The leader similarly commands them to fire at will. Somehow, Cap not only manages to similarly dodge the bullets, but gets both Ms. Marvel and Wolverine out of the way too.
Assuming we've never seen Cap's clear FTB feats, I would never use this example in isolation to suggest that Cap has proven FTB speed and is literally faster than bullets. Unlike you, I don't preclude the reasonable possibility that there was a split-second differential between the "fire at will" command and them actually pulling the triggers. The same context I used in previous rebuttals applies:
"Because these enhanced mercenaries may have believed they had Cap dead to rights and because there's no conclusive proof that they must have fired as quickly as possible, it's reasonable to suggest that there was a split-second's or second's differential that gave Cap enough time to get out of the way before the bullets were actually discharged. This is even more reasonable to argue, since Cap has never demonstrated a clear and undeniable FTB feat in his career. Therefore, this scan shouldn't be cited as absolute proof of FTB speed. Such use is attenuated and strained."
That's the evidentiary standard that most posters on KMC adhere to, including me. You may think I'm focusing on Wolverine, but he's merely the subject character you vociferously campaign for. This debate isn't about Wolverine. It's about the objection I have to your evidentiary citation habits which try to pass off ambiguous bullet-dodging feats as FTB speed feats when more reasonable explanations exist to explain them. Especially, when the circumstances of the scene do not preclude such reasonable possibilities. Especially, since we all admit that street-levelers possessing FTB/FTL speed is ridiculous in the first place.
And especially so, when you try to do it in a vacuum. In other words, when the character has no clear and undeniable FTB speed feats to fall back on to give him the benefit of the doubt. People can make better arguments that Cap has clear FTB speed using ambiguous generic bullet-dodging feats because he actually has got several clear FTB feats on-panel. You've shown me none so far for Wolverine. You just keep passing off more of the same ambiguous generic bullet-dodging feats. Therefore, you won't get the benefit of the doubt from me. And until you prove that reasonable, less fantastical explanations are absolutely precluded by the above-posted scenes, then its unreasonable to continue holding them out as absolute proof of FTB speed. Nuff said.
Lol.... how pathetic... how utterly pathetic.... So, instead of arguing against the actual points that I was making you're just going to presume I made some sort of admission that your P.O.V. was accurate in the least? Like I said, pathetic.
Wolverine with his back turned to his attackers NECESSARILY CAN NOT AIM DODGE.... Knowing that he's the target is of little relivence to his actual speed or his ability to negotiate the aim of his attackers.... You posed that Wolverine's ability to evade the gunfire was in part due to aim dodging.. which given the scenario was flat out impossible, regardless of any rationalizations you want to muddle this thread with.
Just as well were is this admission that that you were accurately estimating the time it took to process the order to fire? You came to the conclusion that it took them a full second to squeeze the trigger... I've done nothing but ridicule you for that, and yet some how you see a concession in that? Typical Onedumb strategy of feining victory.
The thing is, that the men had already come to kill Wolverine, were awaiting orders to kill Wolverine with fingers pressed on the triggers, Wolverine's still sitting at the bar as the order is given... both parties had to process the command and yet you argue that Wolverine got out of the way before they even pulled the trigger (From a seated position at that), YET you're arguing that such a display of speed isn't on par with bullet time... There's nothing reasonable about that and the only way you could possibly assess otherwise is by pretending that the shooters took a massive amount of time to pull the trigger which.. as I recall... you did... and are still doing.
no not necessarily... But, reasonably, and most likely... You want to assume feats based on reason. It's more reasonable to react on the word "go" faster when you're already waiting for the command and to perform the ensuing action... which they were. You accuse me of oversimplication and your overcomplicating it in turn. You don't see people taking 1 second to react to a gun at a track meet. It's that simple.
Yakuza are highly trained, skilled, and disciplined individuals the order to kill didn't come as a surprise, there wasn't any conscious decision taking place for every one of them to perform the action. They DID know that Patch was a grossly dangerous individual capable of going toe to toe with other superhumans, that was his reputation all over Madripoor. There was no reason for them to take him lightly to assume any alternative.... is this just you projecting your assumptions to the scene without proving it? Looks like.
Well considering Wolverine too had to process the order to fire just like everyone else, and we see him seated as the order is given, it's likely it took less time than .3 seconds. And the fact that the next panel immediately after the order is given is of people firing away there's no reason to inject your own rationalities that trained gunmen took their sweet ass time. The only reason you're continuing to do so is strictly for argument's sake.. Like the terrorist feat, if you think something happened in between panels, prove it.
So like I said, you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of and assuming a position you can't prove.
"automatically precludes"? Hardly.
They emptied all their clips into Wolverine's position. Even if it only took 5 to 8 seconds to do it'd be more than enough time for their boss to exit the bar. Nice logic though.
Ummm.. no...
We see Wolverine walking away, we see Wolverine's head looking striaght on as the terrorist picked the firearm up. You proposed that Wolverine heard the terrorist pickup the firearm and must have turned to react to it. Well he wasn't turning as we see the gun being picked up. So then what? He turned his head at the last second, off panel no less?
Yes.. you think that's reasonable, then you're beyond anyone's ability to help. Again, given what we see, Wolverine dodged a bullet after it was fired. You argue that he moved inbetween panels.. again I can't prove a negative, so the burden's still on you and you're still failing.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
I got one thing to say. Dodging a FTL attack, or Speed of Sound attack doesn't mean you move at the FTL speed, or Speed of Sound. If that's what the argument is about. I don't want to read 3 pages of it
Which I can, unless you're forced to be subjected to the conclusion that the rounds hitting the chest came after the rounds hitting the shoulders, inspite of the fact that the machine gun which was pinned on Wolverine in the scan where it's firing (so I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about there) is aimed in a location with far closer approximation to the chest than shoulders. Wolverine isn't being hit by bullets in the same scan that he's being shot at by guns that are lined up directly on him and hitting a target immediately behind him... You want to pretend that's not a bullet feat, your perogtative, it doesn't bother me one bit because...
How about when they started firing at him?
Because there's no indication of there being multiple triplines. Wolverine tripped the first and lasers began firing there's no timing or anticipation from that point on, he just had to move.
OMG there you go once again adding in your own context to the given situation. lol, of course I understand your defection since this feat kind of backs you into a corner.
And adding more.. at no point... I'll repeat... NO POINT does Wolverine even IMPLY that he knows where the lasers will fire, that timing is involved, that he's using anticipation... all of this is your own interpretation inflated by context that doesn't exist....
But let's be honest here because frankly I'm not going to play into your own deluded interpretations of what happened.... and you're WAY overcomplicating this feat to suit yourself.
What we do see without a shadow of a doubt is Wolverine dodging multiple lasers when they are first fired off.. He doesn't know what he's being attacked by or from where until it's literally already in the process of attacking him. Wolverine dodged multiple lasers.
Aim dodging is not an acceptable defection to this.
Anticipation and timing are not acceptable defections to this.
Wolverine simply did what you think he can't....
The scan flat out states Wolverine is dodging ray blasts.. it's not some hyperbolic statement from another character, it's non partison 3rd person narrative....
you've come to the conclusion that the scan doesn't mean what it says..... Like I said you're beyond help if all you have to bring to this debate is your own rationalizations on feats that never included them in the first place.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
I get your position. I do. Honestly I understand where you're coming from. But the rationale behind your position I feel is absurd.
This Cap feat you presented....
Sure you CAN say that it isn't a 100% certain, and clear indication of FTB speed or literally dodging a bullet after it's been fired etc etc. But, what you can't say is that the feat is in no way an indication of speed on par with FTB speed.................
UNLESS you interject context into the given situation which doesn't already exist...
From that feat we see Cap in a position of rest, and then we see him out of the way of gunfire carrying two people before bullets have even hit their mark yet. You can assume it took the shooters time to pull the tigger but that's EXTREMELY unreasonable considering they're trained gunmen already prepared to perform the action of firing a weapon and simply waiting on the order itself, as opposed to Cap or Wolverine who in either case, weren't prepared or in position to evade the oncoming fire based on aimdodging alone. Sheer speed HAD to account for both feats, and since both Wolverine AND Cap were subject to moving on the cammand to fire, they also had to process the order as it was given. They either had to move faster than the trigger finger, or they were dodging the bullets that came after. There's no reasonable alternatives to either situation and both can be used to indicate SOME level of bullet speed if not greater.
So like I said, while you can add your own context and pretend that your alternatives are more reasonable, they aren't... they're just different.
Now all of your nonsense as to the benefit of the doubt... It's not that you'r not giving a benefit of the doubt to Wolverine, it's that you're pleading to a point of reason and THEN giving the benefit of the doubt to the most unreasonable thing to help yourself rationalize why the feat took place....
It's ridiculous.. and nothing short of ridiculous to see Wolverine dodging bullets in bullet time and then saying that he didn't do it because he "could have done this this and this".... At the end of the day, you're grasping at straws since Wolverine HAS dodged lasers as they've been fired, HAS dodged bullets as they've been fired, and HAS been described by on panel narrative as DODGING said things. Once again, instead of taking even a description of his actions at face value, you're failing at NOT applying a benefit of the doubt in the feat and instead subjecting it against Logan.
Your perogative.
__________________ "damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
jinzin: Your very first proposition is incorrect. Having your back turned does not preclude you from making use of aim-dodging. Could Wolverine tell where they were aiming? Yes. At his back. If he dodges out of the way of that spot, before the shooters adjust their aim, he dodges out of the way of their aim. And since he knew approximately when they were going to fire, because their bosses announced it outright, he could dodge out of the way before the shooters adjusted their aim. That is aim dodging.
As for your second proposition, you didn't understand what I alleged. I alleged that you've admitted that you falsely distinguished the space of time between the leader's order and the henchmens' trigger-pulling. You equated it to the space of time it took for neurons to travel from brain to finger. That's something you initially suggested and now you've moved away from.0.3 seconds = a massive amount of time? Fact is, we can't measure the space of time it was. Which is completely the point. Because you argue that FTB speed is the only way, and thus the key, to that feat. It's not the only way, because you haven't proved that there wasn't a split-second's or second's differential that gave Wolverine an opportunity to dodge.False distinction. People at a track meet are racing each other and must get as quick a start as possible to win. These shooters are not trying to race each other. These shooters had their victim dead to rights. What motivation would they have to fire as quickly as possible?
If that's the case, then they wouldn't have waited for their leader's order and would have began firing for fear of their lives. Nor would they have expressed so much surprise when he dodged their barrage of bullets. And I never argued they would take him lightly. I argued that it's reasonably possible that there was a split-second differential between Dragonhead's order and them firing.
Wolverine's cognitive abilities and reflexes are far superior to normal humans. And 0.3 seconds is not taking your sweet ass time. It's YOUR evidence for YOUR proposition. This proposition completely hinges on there being no reasonable possibility that there was a split-second's delay or movement when the scene cuts away from Wolverine. If there is a reasonable possibility, then I've done my job and proven that you cannot hold this out as absolute proof of FTB reflexes. This applies to the terrorist feat as well.So they unloaded their clips completely? Show the next few pages then, where Wolverine rips through them all and they're all struggling to reload.
Problem is, the guns aren't lined up on Wolverine from the art. Therefore, we are both at an impasse, since I can't argue that the shoulder shots were unobstructed by Wolverine and thus the chest shot could have came after, and you can't argue that the line of fire suggested that the chest shot came first. Ambiguous artwork = ambiguous scene. If that's the case, then clearly it isn't absolute proof of FTB speed. Absence of evidence if not evidence of absence, but that you cannot find a clear, ambiguous FTB scene is telling. http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8592/lazerxfire.jpg http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9748/lazerxfire2.jpg
Wolverine gets hit by them when they first started firing at them. Whether he could see them or not, they hit him. So how is that evidence of FTL reflexes? IF he had FTL reflexes, he wouldn't get hit by any of them.
I'm not adding context. I'm merely reading Wolverine's OWN thoughts, where he "stays two steps ahead o' the laser blasts." Whether he's referring to anticipating where the laser blasts will fire, or literally being two steps ahead of where a blast is aimed, that is aim-dodging and neither requires FTL reflexes. On-panel. http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/3595/scurred.jpg
Arguing that the narrative statement should be read as, "claws slicing chain-mail even as he adroitly dodges ray-blasts" as "claws slicing chain-mail even as he uses FTL speed to dodge ray-blasts" is hyperbole that you add to the narrative statement. The narrative statement isn't hyperbolic when you can read it as, "claws slicing chain-mail even as he adroitly evades the aim of their ray-blasts."I never said sheer speed wasn't required. It is. However, FTB speed isn't required when there's a split-second's or second's differential between the order to fire and the pulling of the trigger. If you're going to argue that I'm inserting context unjustifiably, then you must at the same time, admit that you're precluding context unjustifiably.
What you fail to recognize is that I am using reason to justify that it's possible that there could be a split-second's differential. Because hearing an order and firing a bullet is not instantaneous. Because street-levelers possessing that level of speed, as you already agreed, is ridiculous. What are you using to justify that there could never have been a split-second's differential? Your self-serving arguments used to hold out ambiguous bullet-dodging scenes as proof of FTB reflexes? Nothing in the scans precludes a split-second's or second's differential. A split-second's or second's differential is reasonably possible in those scans. If it's reasonably possible, then it is not absolute proof of FTB reflexes.No. It's not ridiculous that there was a split-second's or second's differential in those scans. You haven't proved so at all.
And no, Wolverine hasn't done any of those things you've argued. I've shown you scenes that are clearly FTB feats. Where the character was stationary and not in any position to be moving before the bullet was discharged or in flight. You've shown me scans where the scene cuts away from Wolverine, scans where Wolverine actually gets hit by lasers, an ambiguous scan of Wolverine already weaving and dodging between shooters, and an ambiguous narrative statement. Is that all you've got? Because if so, then be prepared for when I switch gears and attack your logic from a different angle.
KMC Community Forums
May 25th, 2009 07:22 AM
"damn jinzin, you're a real trooper, you provde fact after fact and pages and pages of proof and these wanton miscreants just keep at it"~MERC
you're the one who just said there was some preconcieved plan, implied that there were multiple trip lines and just suggested that Wolverine was referencing his anticipation when he said nothing of the sort.. maybe you should go back in.....
As this only serves to clarify my positions which may be unclear when there's such proclivity between jinzin and myself to post walls of text, I don't see the harm in answering these questions:
