The matter remains ambiguous unfortunately. Cognus and Maul are fast but we cannot determine who is faster then whom. Cognus was fast but could be slower then Bane; similarly, Maul was fast but could be slower then Plagueis.
Bane was stabbed and infected before this fight began.
Sometimes, certain Force abilities can come natural to a Force-user. After all, Cognus was talented enough to become part of RoT lineage.
It is foolish to rely upon "speed" argument to determine an outcome in a duel in Star Wars. Unless, the gap is too big in the context of "command of the Force," shortcomings in speed can be compensated by other Force abilities.
Bane have gained knowledge from several holocrons; is the same true for Anakin and Maul?
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 7th, 2013 at 11:53 AM
That's not how it works. As for all these ''so fast she/he could barely see them'' feats, it depends on who could not see them: just any eyelooker or one who him//herself is extremely fast.
Cognus has no feats, done deal.
Nexus should more than even this out, especially since the pain was wearing away.
It being from her pespective would make little sense considering how ridiculously faster he'd be.
In comparison, Mace moved so fast he looked to have a dozens sabers from Anakin's perspective, and Anakin could not track Mace himself. Anakin's also faster than Zannah based on feats.
I never said that. Bane has some nice showings of speed in DoE but nothing above Anakin/Maul.
Maul isn't an ordinary person either.
They were fighting on a nexus which would've empowered Bane's speed either way.
You've proved nothing in this regard.
From a safe distance, the Iktotchi had watched the two figures from her dreams wage battle. She was an impartial observer, having no preference as to which one would emerge victorious. She only wanted to serve whoever proved the stronger.
The conflict had been brief but intense: she had marveled at the speed of their blades, their movements so fast she could barely follow the action.
Agreed, but because he's faster than she could have imagined doesn't mean he was faster than when he had his orbalisks.
In the comic-adaption of Yoda's fight with Dooku, he generates several afterimages.
He also fought faster than Anakin:
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance.
-Attack of the Clones
Anakin is also extremely fast:
"I'm a slow learner," Anakin replied coolly, and he came on then, so suddenly, so powerfully, his green blade whirling with such speed that he seemed almost encased in green light.
-Attack of the Clones
Yoda has also outpaced Dooku:
"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.
Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire.
"Yes-but Yoda knows how to live!"
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter.
-Dark Rendezvous
Dooku is faster than Obi-Wan who is faster than Qui-Gon who can move his blade so fast it expands into a shield.
Yoda also fights at the same speed Sidious does:
In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.
-Revenge of the Sith
Nah, the quote above suggests it.
He was kicking her ass actually.
She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time. Zannah fell into a full retreat, desperately giving ground beneath the overwhelming assault.
"I did not betray you, Master!" she shouted, trying to make Bane see reason before he cleaved her in two. "I lured Hetton here so you could kill him!"
She ducked under a horizontal cut from his lightsaber, only to catch a heavy boot in her ribs. She rolled with the kick, narrowly avoiding the return cut of his blade. She parried a sharp descending blow, gathered her feet under her, and launched herself backward, flipping ten meters clear.
"Listen to me, Master!" she shouted now that she had put some distance between them. "If I wanted to betray you, why didn't I help them during the-oooffff!"
Bane hit her with a powerful Force throw, sending her hurtling backward. Only the barrier she had instinctively thrown up at the last second to shield herself saved her bones from being shattered by the concussive force of the impact.
She scrambled to her feet and twirled her lightsaber before her, creating what she hoped would be an impenetrable wall of defense. Instead of trying to pierce her guard, Bane leapt high in the air and came down almost right on top of her. She deftly parried his blade, redirecting it to the side as she spun away to keep his body from slamming into her. But Bane caught her on the chin with his elbow as she turned, the blow snapping her head back. Her body went limp, her weapon dropped from her nerveless fingers, and she crumpled to the ground.
For a second she saw nothing but stars. Her vision cleared to reveal the image of Darth Bane looming above her, his blade raised for the coup de grace.
From RoT^
I don't recall saying he held back. But his rain-feat was a display of training session, not real combat. Even on a nexus, he never displayed such speed.
Karpyshan was obviously being a moron in this case.
I'm not.
Never said he was less skilled, only less powerful. Point is, Bane's lightning-feats with his orbalisks are better, as his his general power such as disintegrating technobeasts, as is his combat speed in which he looks to wield dozens of sabers, as is his strength etc.
Yoda has been noted as the most skilled Jedi of his time and perhaps of any before him. Dooku has been compared to Mace, and Mace is second to Yoda as of AotC.
As for Sidious, didn't you say mastering more styles equals greater skill? Because the word is that a new sourcebook confirms Sidious as a Master of all seven.
This would only be true if the Soresu Master would be more skilled than his/her opponent.
Soresu was a defensive fighting style well suited to the close confines of the hut, but it wouldn't last forever against the malignant grace of Juyo.
-The Force Unleashed
Zannah is not more powerful than Maul. Telekinetically, I only recall various Force barriers but nothing too impressive: not something that outweighs collapsing cave ceilings and pulling shuttles.
Can she use her tendrils outside a nexus?
Again she opened herself up to the dark side. This time, however, she didn't attack Bane directly. Instead, she let it flow through her, drawing it from the soil and stone of Ambria itself. She called to power buried for centuries, summoning it up to the surface in wispy tendrils of dark smoke snaking up from the sand.
It seems to me she did draw on the power of Ambria's nexus, and even then, the feat itself makes her exhausted:
He unleashed another lightning blast at his apprentice. She caught the incoming bolts with her lightsaber, rendering them harmless. But her reactions were a fraction slower than normal, and Bane knew it was more than just her injured ribs. The effort to keep the tendrils animated was pushing Zannah's ability to draw on the Force to its limits, leaving her vulnerable in other areas.
Skill wise, she has nothing on Maul. Her actual training is nothing in comparison to Maul, she knows less forms, has less accolades in reference to pure skill, has beaten less skilled foes than Maul has etc.
Speed and agility should also be in his favor based on various feats.
Last edited by Intrepid37 on Jul 7th, 2013 at 06:13 PM
I have already pointed out the ambiguity in this case; Cognus acquired some Force abilities without formal training but I don't know if she was faster then Maul or not. It is "possible" that Maul was faster then this incarnation of Cognus due to being highly trained.
Cognus was fast enough to evade several attacks of Bane; Bane's performance was not ideal during this contest due to several factors involved so this would have favored Cognus as well.
Issue was in your reasoning ability which I intended to pinpoint:
"Being ''extremely fast'' is nothing in comparison to Maul."
This kind of statement makes no sense at all.
Here;
The Huntress couldn't say how long it had been since she'd carved her senflax-coated blade through the flesh of the Sith Lord's forearm, but the neurotoxin had to take effect soon. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil)
&
The Iktotchi knew she couldn't beat him. He was too strong. The tricks she had used against the Jedi had slowed him down at first, but now they had no effect at all. The senflax was her only hope of surviving. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil)
I may have misunderstood your point then. I would appreciate some elaboration here.
Do let me know.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 7th, 2013 at 07:54 PM
Again, I fail to see why I should regard Cognus faster than Maul when she has done nothing indicating so.
As for my statement, I really don't know what ''extremely fast'' is for you or Nephthys, but I could easily call Maul the same, and so such statement is not comparable.
Both excerpts are from shortly before Zannah's fight with Bane when he's unarmed in the Stone Prison, not before their final fight on Ambria.
My point was how inconsistent the rain-feat is and that I fail to see how it proves that Bane is faster than Maul since slower combatants have been able to follow his movements just fine.
I was just comparing Set Harth (who could fight Zannah just fine) and Zannah (who could fight Bane just fine). Such would mean that Set Harth, featless and nowhere as trained as Maul, would be faster than Maul, and quite frankly, I can't follow that logic.
My argument here is not for Cognus' speed; it is for your poorly constructed statement earlier. Though you seem to have shifted to better reasoning now.
These excerpts are from information representing Cognus's encounter with Bane in the novel. She was hired by the daughter of Celeb to capture Bane for her.
The rain feat represents Soresu maneuvers of Bane; Zannah was adept in Form III as well.
During decisive encounter between Bane and Zannah, the former utilized an offensive Form against the latter (the latter utilized Form III?).
A hint about Set's speed:
The attack came the instant Zannah opened her mouth to reply. It came without any warning, Set moving with the preternatural speed of the Force. The Dark Jedi's lightsaber materialized in his hand, igniting and spiraling across the room toward her faster than thought itself. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil)
More:
When two skilled combatants engaged each other with the lightsaber, the blades moved so quickly it was impossible to think and react to each move. Bane had taught her to rely on instinct, guided by the Force and honed by thousands of hours' training in the martial forms. This training allowed her to realize within the first few passes that Set was using a modified variation of Ataru, a style defined by quick, aggressive strikes. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil)
Most importantly, Set was no match for Zannah:
Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting…particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down.
She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.
In their short encounter, she was presented with at least a dozen opportunities to land a lethal blow to the silver-haired man. But she hadn't come here to kill him; not yet, at least. She had come here to test him, to see if he was worthy of being her apprentice. (Star Wars: Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil)
Waiting
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 8th, 2013 at 02:08 PM
The pain started to wear off as soon as before his confrontation with Zannah in the Stone Prison.
What's your point?
A hint about the place they fought at:
At the back of the library was a nondescript door; beyond it, Zannah could sense the power of the dark side. It called out to her, like the vibrations of a churning engine thrumming through the floor. Approaching carefully, she felt the power grow. It wasn't coming from any person or creature; she knew the sensation of a living being attuned to the Force. This was different. It reminded her of the invisible pulses of energy she had felt emanating from the Force crystals she had used to construct her lightsaber.
Never is it said he was no match, it specifically notes that he exhausted himself because of Ataru.
I started my re-reading of Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader and stumbled upon this regarding Anakin:
Where Anakin had had limited access to the Jedi Temple data room, Vader-even light-years from Coruscant-could peruse any data he wished, including archival records, ancient texts, and holocrons fashioned by past Masters.
It's possible that, because Vader has access that Maul would too, but either way I don't see why learning from holocrons is the best way of learning.
I think you are confused about the events in the novel.
Cognus along with some companions fought and captured Bane. They repeatedly used flash grenades to disorient/distract him and Cognus specially infected Bane with a substance which eventually immobilized him. After this, Bane was shifted to the Dungeon of the princess who wanted him to be executed. The fight with Zannah took place in this dungeon.
My point is that Bane was not able to deliver his best performance during his fight with Cognus because of certain factors already mentioned.
Zannah is not to be underestimated in terms of speed and skill.
Setting doesn't matters much when it has been explicitly pointed out in the novel that Set was no match for Zannah. Continue to read below.
Hint 1;
In only the first few moments of battle she had already evaluated her opponent, noting his speed, agility, and technique. Set was good. Very good. But Zannah also knew without any doubt that she was much, much better.
Hint 2:
In their short encounter, she was presented with at least a dozen opportunities to land a lethal blow to the silver-haired man. But she hadn't come here to kill him; not yet, at least. She had come here to test him, to see if he was worthy of being her apprentice.
Source: Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
This is after ROTS, right?
Also, holocrons make lot of difference. As an example: Sidious managed to improve his dark side abilities by studying from several holocrons with passage of time. Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide points this out.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 8th, 2013 at 05:33 PM
Yeah, but the excerpt you provided was from when he tried to escape the Stone Prison. When Cognus watched he and Zannah fight, it wasn't in the prison, it was their fight on Ambria.
Agreed, but they're clearly not her strong points.
That's true, but the speed they were fighting at was not normal speed, ie Set can't normally move faster than thought.
Point conceded.
It is.
Maul doesn't seem to have a variety of power: he hasn't displayed drain, lightning, environment altering etc which could be because of his lack of holocron studying, but his raw telekinetic strength has definitely matched whatever Bane has done, in my opinion.
A female Iktotchi stood at the far end of the hall, a long, thin knife held in each hand. She grinned at Bane, and in that moment he knew who was interfering with his ability to use the Force.
She broke into a run, charging down the hall toward him. Bane dropped into a fighting crouch to meet her attack, knowing her knives were no match for his lightsaber. It was only then that he noticed the flash grenades lying by the dead bodies at his feet. They exploded with a burst of intense light and chemical smoke that blinded Bane. Disoriented, he fell back against the balcony's railing. An instant later he felt the sole of the Iktotchi's boots strike him hard in the chest, sending him tumbling backward over the banister to the marble floor four meters below. He hit the ground hard enough to knock the breath from his body, leaving him gasping for air. The impact jarred his lightsaber from his grip, sending it skittering across the floor. An instant later his prone form was enveloped by the webbing from the tangle guns, pinning him to the ground. Blind and immobilized, Darth Bane's fury saved him. Years of training allowed him to focus all his pain and rage in one single instant, drawing on it so he could unleash the full power of the dark side. Once again he felt the Iktotchi's barrier opposing his efforts, but this time he tore through it like it wasn't even there.
For a moment it was as if the world around him was frozen in place. Though his eyes were still suffering the effects of the flash grenade, the Force rushing through his body gave him an otherworldly awareness of his surroundings—the scene was burned into his brain in exquisite detail. The soldiers were scattered about the foyer, scrambling to take up new positions in preparation for the next stage of the battle. They were well trained, but he could still sense their fear: they knew the fight was far from over. The Iktotchi had leapt over the railing in pursuit of him. She hung poised in the air above him, her twin blades held out to the either side as she braced for landing. Bane could even see himself lying on the floor, buried beneath a thick, wet blanket of rapidly drying chemical adhesive.
The frozen tableau lasted only a fraction of an instant, but it told the Dark Lord everything he needed to know. And then the instant was gone, and everything became a blur of motion again. The Iktotchi landed just as Bane unleashed a wave of crackling electricity that burned away the webbing of the tangle guns. She dropped to one knee and tried to stab her knives into him as he lay on the floor, but through the Force Bane saw her coming. He managed to roll aside, escaping with only a long, deep cut along one of his forearms as he scrambled back to his feet.
In response to his call, his lightsaber flew up from the floor and into his waiting hand, but the Iktotchi was already retreating. Now that he was no longer helpless, she was eager to fall back and let others step in. Several more flash grenades exploded around him, but Bane was unaffected; he was no longer relying on his physical sight to guide him. Fresh streams of webbing arced across the room toward him, but this time he incinerated them while they were still in the air. Half a dozen concussion grenades tossed in from every side clattered on the floor at his feet. As they exploded, Bane simply enveloped himself in the Force, creating a protective cocoon that absorbed the impact and left him standing completely unharmed.
Two men popped up from behind a nearby couch and fired at him from point-blank range with their stun guns. Bane slapped the incoming bolts away with his lightsaber, then thrust out a hand to send the couch slamming straight back into the wall, crushing the men who had been using it for cover. Then he was on the move, bearing down on two of the soldiers carrying tangle guns. He sliced them both in half horizontally with a single blow from his lightsaber, carving a perfect line just above their belts. Another volley of stun bolts came too late to save them; Bane was already gone. A single flip and he was back on the balcony again, face-to-face with the Iktotchi.
"You can't escape," he told her.
"I wasn't trying to," she hissed back at him, lunging forward with her knives. She was quicker than Bane expected, coming in low and fast. He didn't have time to simply chop her down; instead he had to spin out of the way. He tried to take one of her arms with his lightsaber on a counterthrust as she slipped past, but the Iktotchi anticipated his move and managed to contort her body so that his blade caught nothing but air. They had switched positions from their first engagement; she was now the one standing with her back to the balcony railing. Bane thrust out with the Force, the impact sending her hurtling backward over the railing as her kick had done to him less than a minute earlier.
Somehow the Iktotchi managed to turn in the air so that she landed on her feet. Because of this, she was able to spring to safety when Bane sent a blast of lightning hurtling down toward her. Instead of her charred corpse, it left only a smoking circle on the floor. Soldiers were firing their stun guns at him again from the stairwell. Bane didn't even bother to strike back at them; he simply dodged their attack by vaulting over the railing and dropping back down to the floor below. The soldiers were nothing to him; it was the Iktotchi he was interested in now. She was the only opponent who posed any real threat. Eliminate her and he could deal with the soldiers at his leisure.
He landed on the floor in a crouch, absorbing the impact. And then everything went black.
The Huntress couldn't say how long it had been since she'd carved her senflax-coated blade through the flesh of the Sith Lord's forearm, but the neurotoxin had to take effect soon. Jedder was dead, crushed against the wall by a piece of flying furniture. At least five other soldiers were already down, too. The Sith Lord was focusing his efforts on her.
The Iktotchi knew she couldn't beat him. He was too strong. The tricks she had used against the Jedi had slowed him down at first, but now they had no effect at all. The senflax was her only hope of surviving.
She saw the Sith leaping down from the balcony, coming after her. He hit the floor, turned toward her, and collapsed. The big man lay on his side, eyes open and seeming to stare right at her. The pupils were bloodshot from the chemicals in the flash grenades.
The Huntress waited until he blinked. Then, seeing no other signs of movement, she held up her hand and shouted,
"Cease fire! Cease fire!"
She thought briefly that his paralysis might be a trick, then discarded the notion. The Sith didn't need subterfuge to win the battle; it was obvious he had them overmatched. The only explanation was that Serra's drug had finally worked its magic. According to the instructions she had been given, they had four hours before they needed to administer the next dose. With Jedder dead, the hired soldiers were staring at her, waiting for their next orders. The Huntress closed her eyes and reached out with her mind, seeking guidance. Someone else was coming: the blond woman from the camp on Ambria.[/I]
Bane trained her well in Jedi dueling arts as apparent from her being much superior to Set Harth (who is very good in these aspects). In addition, Bane couldn't blitz Zannah during their final encounter (regardless of him possessing Windu level skill), so speed and skill are her strong points.
Set attempted to blitz her but failed. Even Bane couldn't blitz Zannah.
Vader became restricted at honing his dark side abilities due to his armor. Prior to armor, he isn't much learned in the ways of the Sith.
Therefore, Bane is more learned in the ways of the dark side then Vader ever had been.
You have a point. Sidious trained Maul for assassination purposes and not as a true apprentice who would be expected to work for future of Sith.
Raw telekinetic ability of Maul is decent; however, Bane have demonstrated much greater power in this regard on Lehon. Even though Lehon is very strong in the dark side and Bane's performance might have been enhanced to some degree over there but nexuses do not make Sith Lords twice as strong as they would be in fair circumstances.
Therefore, Bane is more learned in the ways of the dark side then Maul ever had been, and apparently and comparatively more powerful as well.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jul 8th, 2013 at 06:25 PM
Funny how despite having no feats she could land a blow on Bane and duel evenly with Set Harth. Hell, Set describes Cognus as being 'faster than any opponent he had ever faced.' And this is after he'd already fought Zannah. Sure its likely not true since she could barely see Zannah's blade in the last duel, but to call her featless is laughable. That she's faster than Set is notable given the descriptions of his speed Legend just posted. His lightsaber 'materialised' in his hand and attacked 'faster than thought.' As I recall you trumpeted the same quote for Luke in the Scourge vs Luke thread.
She also dodged Bane's lightning which is pretty ****ing impressive. I've not seen many people flat out dodge lightning. I don't think she had precognition or anything so it must have been pure reflexes and speed.
Bullshit. The text specifically notes that he's weaker because of the sedatives. It does not say anything about the nexus, or even if it is a nexus. Even if it was one, you've not shown that he was actually accessing it.
Also 'pain wearing away' means 'pains still there.'
He was and it was her perspective so it doesn't matter whether it makes sense to you. The fact that she was able to apparently still able to block his attacks speaks of her incredible defense.
Non-canon.
His feat of moving so fast that he appears to wield a dozen lightsabers to Zannah is enough to put him about their speed and he's faster than he was then in DOE. Against the strike team he would have blitzed them were it not for the Battle Meditation (which increased their speed while lowering his). In DoE his rain feat is above anything they've done.
Bane is flat-out faster than they are.
Maul was exhausted and wounded.
The darkside of Ambria was noted to be 'buried for centuries' before Zannah called on it. Its hardly a common nexus we could say was actively amping them. Besides which, I still say that theres nothing indicating combatants automatically amp when on a nexus.
In short Cognus, despite being notably fast and with their powers possibly blunted, could barely see their movements. You're contrasting this with a weak, injured, famished Maul not being able to track Sidious' speed in a dark cave. And your conclusion here is that Bane and Maul are equally fast?
It heavily suggests that. Unless he wasn't using his full speed when he went berserk on her which is extremely unlikely. She also witnessed him fighting the Jedi Strike Team, again in which he had no reason to hold back. Theres every reason to believe that she witnessed and knew his true speed in RoT, that she's amazed at his speed in DoE almost conclusively proves that he's faster than he was then.
The majority of this is hyperbole. Having afterimages in a comic isn't exactly conclusive. Its common artistic trick to denote movement and doesn't necessarily indicate extreme speed or afterimages. Even then, this is less impressive than Kas'im imo, as a comic has no sense of perspective whereas Kas'im was noted to be creating afterimages from Bane's point of view.
Not really.
True, she definitely wasn't close to him in RoT. But she did manage to block his attacks and ducked under his blade at one point.
Why would it matter if it was in a training session. If anything he's move faster in real combat since its more important and his life depends on being as fast as possible. Also, you don't know that he didn't. Just because the text doesn't note that he's moving that fast or give him a speed feat on par with that, doesn't mean that he wasn't still being that fast. You're just assuming what you want to.
You've constantly derided Bane for being unable to outspeed her while ignoring that she's got greater Force potential than him and is an extremely swift Sith Lord with impecable defensive abilities.
His lightning can still incinerate opponents, he can still disintegrate metal and melt it with his powers and he's noted as being faster. Losing the orbalisks means losing the boost of power they gave him, but improved actualization of his power and increased Force Mastery should make this negligible or non-existent.
__________________
Last edited by Nephthys on Jul 8th, 2013 at 06:30 PM
Yes yes, I know all of this. I was making the point that those feats you mentioned don't really indicate much in the way of skill considering they were fighting people less powerful than themselves.
Zannah's style is special though. Its just a spinning wall. How can skill get passed that? Its noted to be practically impenetrable with the only Banes level of utter domination and physical superiority being able to get passed it. Maul does not possess that.
Clearly idiotic to be suggesting that Soresu intrinsically can't defend against Juyo. I guess Atris can beat Obi-Wan now.
Yes, she is.
Telekinetically, as an untrained child disconnected from her power she could levitate and disintegrate limbs by accident. She's blocked Bane's attacks so Mauls won't trouble her.
Probably not.
She still defended herself admirably against Bane, meaning that she would do so against Maul. Maul couldn't even beat Obi-Wan with his brothers help, how is he going to penetrate a similar level of defense without his brother against an opponent more powerful than himself?
She'll either tire him out and defeat him or use her Sorcery to end him.
Unless a nexus consists of different, separate Force power then there is no reason to believe it must be consciously drawn upon whenever a present Force user draws on the Force.
Feats occurring on a nexus simply can't be considered as a person's general ability.
Jul 7th, 2013 11:50 AM
