Luke becomes a Jedi in the unspecified period of time it takes the Millennium Falcon to reach Bespin sans hyperdrive. It takes only a few minutes of screen time and no indication is given of extreme time passing. Although real Jedi apparently started training in early childhood, Luke is able to put up a good fight against Vader and use powers such as force jump by the time he leaves the planet. By Return of the Jedi, Luke, who's otherwise spent most of his time looking for Han rather than training, is now a full-blown Jedi, being able to employ mind tricks and numerous other Jedi powers with little effort. He's also a far better swordsman, able to defeat Vader this time.
Last edited by Charlie512 on Mar 16th, 2012 at 02:42 AM
We can guess yet it would have been very stupid and incompetent of Yoda to go easy on Dooku considering what was at stake. Obi-Wan clearly told Anakin he cant stop Dooku alone and if Anakin helps him they can stop the war right now. If not Anakin would have been expelled from the Jedi Order.
But still Yoda was clearly going to defeat Dooku before the distraction. My point being though Dooku clearly did have the strength to compete against him. Put up a fight at least, despite having centuries less combat experience.
But yes Yoda definetely went all out against Sidious. But again with centuries more experience and sword fighting practice was unable to defeat him.
Well he wasn't a fully trained Knight yet, so probably could not apply/access that raw power anywhere near as effectively, if at all.
Under the assumption he's less capable than AOTC Anakin then yes he wouldn't have a chance. But if he's like Jedi Knight Anakin from CW movie (not sure if that counts as EU?? Its technically a SW Movie) then maybe he'd have a chance right??
No Lucas has made it clear he was far less powerful after Mustafar. Master of the Dark Side is kind of hyperbole. Nothing that was mentioned in the movies. Was his Mastery of the Force greater than the Likes of Count Dooku?? I doubt it.
Perhaps he just meant his knowledge of the force was greater. To be honest that line doesn't mean all that much. He's not exactly going to say "Im a weakling compared to what I was, so please take it easy on me.."
The fact is his younger self defeated someone considerably more powerful than Old Ben. That was Count Dooku. The fact that after all those years of Mastering the Dark Side he had trouble taking down Old Ben does not really help his case here.
Nor does the fact that in the audio commentary of that scene Lucas says this fight is not as good compared to the PT ones because Vader is mostly machine and Ben an old man.
This is a good question. Im guessing it means Raw Power at they have at their disposal. Possibly applied power.
But it certainly does not mean potential, because he's also talked about potential in the same line but in a different manner. By referring to potential he says "He's lost a lot of feasibility to become more powerful than the Emporer.."
I don't buy that. Dooku was a pure fencer, who has gone up against someone as powerful as Yoda. This idea that his style could not handle it comes from a line in the ROTS novel that says something like "his own elegant Makashi could not handle the striles of Djem So head on, especially while fending off another attacker.."
But as the fight becomes one on one and really heats up, the novel makes it perfectly clear the Only thing Dooku could not handle was Anakin's raw power.
And like I mentioned above.. Lucas states in ANH Audio commentary that Vader does not fight as well now because he's mostly machine. Implying he's a lot worse in terms of a Lightsaber fight at least. Less mobile, much slower, e.t.c.
And again Dooku had more "Force Knowledge" than Anakin, much much more. And Sidious had more "Force Knowledge" than Mace Windu. Much more, but the latter still beat him in a Lightsaber fight.
Ben says to Luke in ROTJ "The Emporer knew as well as I did, If Anakin were to have any offspring they would be a threat to him.."
In other words They had to keep them hidden. The Emporer sensed Luke's powers growing in ESB. But he was an adult by then. He was with the rebellion, able to try and escape the Empire if they came after him.
So I'm guessing they thought teaching Luke as a child would have just been far too risky. They did not want to alert the Emporer of his existence yet.
But Luke was the only one capable of making that shot. In all fights against the Empire after that the Rebellion had Force endowed pilot on their side.
That was obviously a powerful weapon they had on their side. I think that was much more useful really than being able to defeat Vader or the Emporer in a Lightsaber fight.
I think the point was there will always be flaws to exploit in technology. Which is why the Force was the real weapon and decider of who controlled the Galaxy.
Well in the PT The Dark side seemed to be more powerful than the Light. Sidious blocked the Jedi vision completely so they had no idea what was coming. In AOTC Mace Windu says "I think we should inform the senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.."
And Yoda says "Only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness"
I think Anakin's prescence in the Force having the Force so strongly with him could have tipped the balance making the Light side stronger again. But problem was he was never truly attuned to the Light side was he?
Unlike Luke, whose prescence was clearly felt by the Emporer as a Disturbance in the Focre. And then it was the Emporer who could no longer see the future. He did not forsee Vader's betrayal or his own death.
It was the whole Balance of the Force shifting which is what I believe killed the Emporer in the end.
Last edited by Darth Thor on Mar 16th, 2012 at 12:21 PM
Yeah I suppose. Due to Luke's presence in the Force.
Whilst in the PT it was the other way around. It was the Sith's presence which made the Jedi's ability to use the force useless according to Mace Windu.
Im guessing Anakin's presence in the Force did not do the same thing because well even as a Jedi Knight he wasn't really all that good was he. He has such a dark presence around him, and before he became a Jedi he murdered a whole village.
^ In the sense that he could not forsee through the Force Vader's betrayal if he tried to kill Luke and blind to is own coming death. Much like the Jedi did not forsee the destruction of the whole Jedi order.
Remember The Emporer's line in ESB. There is a great distrubance in the Force (due to Luke). Much like the disturbance in the Force the Jedi are feeling in AOTC due to the Sith.
I just don't think it was all about beating Sidious in a Sword fight. Mace Windu already did that for all the good it achieved.
^ Very similar to what Im getting at. Basically we're both saying just the pesence in the Force of the Skywalkers, and the path they chose is what shifts the Balance in the Force and thereby shifts the Balance of Power in the Galaxy.
^ Maybe they did. Remember their whole hopes in the PT rested on The Chosen One restoring Balance to the Force.
In AOTC when Yoda is saying the Jedi are losing their way, even the older more experienced ones, Mace says to Obi-Wan "Remember if the Prophecy is true your apprentice is the only one who can restore balance to the Force.."
After Anakin's downfall they were hoping for Luke/Leia to do that.
Ok just re-watched ROTJ with the audio commentary and Lucas does say Luke is only half trained and not fully equipped to take on Vader..
*sigh* He's obviously just saying that to put things in line with the prequels. All the dialogue in the movie from Yoda, Vader and Luke himself suggest he was fully trained. Plus I have the original novel, and there was no hint of him not being fully trained. Quite the opposite. So again *sigh*