Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
I would disagree, subtle or not, I don't see any of Plagueis' feats as being as impressive as Ziost.
As for Sidious and Plagueis' ritual, it's just that a ritual. It took almost constant effort and power poured into it over the course of months, from both Plagueis AND Sidious, it's not even remotely attributable to any level of power either of them might have on their own at any given time. It's a feat performed with Plagueis' and Sidious' full combined power, multiplied exponentially, based the very nature of the ritual, how it was performed, etc, I'm hesitant to even consider it a feat.
That's a rule that I attribute to most rituals, like Vitiate's draining of Nathema, I don't really consider that to be ultra impressive either, because he had a lot of assistance in doing it.
If you're gonna downplay Sidious and Plagueis's feat for being a ritual I have no idea how you give Vitiate credit for anything.
At least Sidious and Plagueis just meditated; Vitiate did rituals in a far more literal and overt sense, with lots more prep, often with external Force users, and on nexuses.
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Registered: Aug 2016
Location: Pennsylvania, United States
I don't consider a lot of Vitiate's rituals when I place him, same for any Sith. I don't believe his drain on Ziost was a ritual in the first place, and even if it was, he still dominated the minds of (iirc) everyone on the planet while in a severely weakened state, before performing the drain. If I did, I (or anyone in the ToR Brigade) could argue that because Vitiate was seemingly going to succeed in his mission to drain the galaxy of life, that Vitiate even at that point, was a galaxy level threat. Which, obviously, isn't true.
Sidious' and Plagueis' ritual was more meditation than anything, I don't disagree with that, I only disagree with the notion that it's somehow immensely impressive, or that the ritual can somehow be attributed in any capacity to one Sith or the other as a feat.
Last edited by darthbane77 on Jan 7th, 2018 at 06:48 PM
I read the first part of the blog featuring the Force unbalancing. It's not fair to put Plagueis above Valkorion because of it since Valkorion never actively attempted to do the feat, nor did he need to (especially in the Valkorion incarnation that pulls from both sides of the Force). Turning the Force to the dark-side doesn't help even Vitiate's interests, whose aspirations of devouring the galaxy depends on galaxy-wide warfare to fuel the deaths and therefore a powerful Jedi Order.
The feat is enormously impressive, but I feel you downplay Sidious' involvement. When in deep meditation for extensive periods of time, Sidious would be calling deep in his reserves, likely meaning that he would be operating at an equal or vastly superior rate than Darth Plagueis (since he has greater potential).
Still, I liked the effort and perhaps the other subtopics will persuade me more.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
Last edited by Jaggarath on Jan 7th, 2018 at 06:57 PM
@bane I don't see evidence that Sidious and Plagueis did a "ritual" in the sense that they employed some external or configurative trickery.
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As ILS and I had discussed on hangouts, it should be emphasized that:
1. Plagueis while drunk and blindsided can tank the full-power lightning of Sidious, who had already been labeled in other sources the most powerful sith of all time. He only died because his breathing apparatus failed; the actual lightning wasn't physically harming him.
2. Plagueis considered this regeneration feat much harder than severing midichlorians.
Ergo, if he can regenerate vs. Palpatine's lightning and considers severing midichlorians easier, there's a good chance he can just oneshot Valkorion via midichlorian sever (and certainly weaklings like Arcann or Vaylin).
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Plagueis is supreme. Valkorion is simply inferior.
We've been wrong this whole time; Valkorion wasn't an attempt to mimic or even surpass Sidious. He was a demonstration of why the ancient Sith followed the wrong path. Instead of attempting to tap into the very source code of the Force, like Neo from the matrix, they attempted to crudely bend it to their will, using technology, alchemy, rituals, nexuses, spirits and minions to further their goals. Valkorion, as mentioned in that codex, took this practice "to it's extreme" by performing the Ziost ritual, but when put in the correct perspective (which is what Az did here), all of his feats are in a lesser league to what Plagueis achieved. Plagueis is a far bigger deal, with more advanced techniques and more impressive accomplishments.
That's the point of the Banite Sith; they evolved. Instead of trying to master new Force abilities, to discover new powers and techniques or adapt ancients ones from dusty scrolls and holocrons, they took it a step further: they tapped into the very essence of the Living Force, bent it's will, and began to alter reality itself, very much like Neo in the matrix when he finally starts to see the world as it is; just code.
The Banite Sith had enough vision to understand that they can only ascend by breaking the rules. Plagueis perfected this, and then Sidious took the reigns from him. Really, we should be looking at debating Valkorion vs anyone between Bane and Tenebrous, but certainly no higher than that.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
It's honestly kind of funny when you look at the misconceptions people have been peddling this whole time.
"The difference between the ancient Sith and the modern Sith is that the ancients were much more focused on the Force, whereas the modern Sith were more political and focused more on sabers"
Where, in reality, the modern Sith had tapped into a level of power so extreme, so unprecedented that the kind of childish displays of overt power from the likes of Valkorion and Exar Kun simply fall short of what one can truly be capable of. They were still playing by the rules, looking for new ways to jack up their power, whereas Plagueis and Sidious were quite literally altering reality to their whims. Add to that a level of speed and skill that simply makes Valkorion and the other ancients look like senior citizens... not looking bright for them should they come to blows. Tempted to throw Valk a bone, seeing as Tenebrous doesn't seem to be able to actually attack his midichlorians directly, like Plagueis, but in terms of a raw power exchange, it would be great to see.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Well, Valkorion's "body" is a Zaakul soldier who his spirit possessed essentially, right? So Valkorion is possessing and channelling his power through the midi-chlorians of this new host body. Plagueis should have no issues doing a little de-programming and causing a mass die-off of midi-chlorians, rendering Valkorion a spirit. From there it just depends on if Plagueis can kill his spirit or if being reduced to a spirit is itself sufficient victory conditions.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
I don't think Valkorion is channeling his power through the midichlorians though, because that implies his power would be limited to the midichlorians of the original host.
__________________ "There is only Revan. Only he can shape this galaxy as it is meant to be shaped."
If that's the case then his spirit is just tethered to a body, the attacks themselves coming from his disembodied spirit. Similar to Nihilus and his armour perhaps?
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
Makes sense. We only ever saw what I described before with Kun and Kyp, and that was only possible/warranted because of Kyp's immense power. I imagine Valk's body is mostly for aesthetics and symbolism.
__________________ “The galaxy must experience the pain of death and the rapture of rebirth as I have. I will bring chaos. It is time for war.”
There's no evidence that this applies to any of the Banites beside Plagueis. The rest of the Banites were just as traditional as any Sith who came before them. The early ones like Bane and Zannah are just what you described, building their order on the scraps of the Sith that came before them.
Tenebrous didn't seem to rely on the Force all that much, he simply used his enormous intelligence and computational ability to anticipate the coming of the Chosen One and tried to use bio-engineering to bide his time and snatch his body.
And Palpatine was just a massive idiot. Unlike most Sith Masters, Plagueis actually trusted and valued him, and would have freely shared his secrets with him. Palpatine had it made in the shade. If he would have just continued to handle the "profane" part of the Grand Plan while Plagueis continued his research, they would have toppled the republic, extended their lives and ruled forever. But his fear and ego got in the way.
And what did he do after he killed Plagueis? Same old same old. Got back to technology, rituals, Force Storms etc. Meet the new Sith, same as the old Sith.
Plagueis was the only one who ever got close to the Sith goal. Based on the revelation that in the years following the assassination attempt on him he actually increased his own midichlorian count, and the nature of his research in The Book of Sith, it's likely that given more time he would have eventually broken free of any limit and become some sort of god. Palpatine sensed this, and nipped it in the bud.
Other than Plagueis, the only other innovator is Krayt. Only Krayt just stumbled into it by accident. He died and in his own words experienced "rapture" and "the passageway to something greater". When he came back he was free of his previous limitations, and unique powers like the Essence Transfer, the ability to see shatterpointts, and the Dark Transfer came to him naturally. The same powers that previous generations of Sith lusted over all their lives.