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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Episode IV, V & VI » Do we overlook the OT's flaws?


Do we overlook the OT's flaws?
Started by: Skybreaker

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queeq
Chaos

Registered: Oct 2000
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Time for it to die...


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Old Post Nov 3rd, 2016 01:11 PM
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Flyattractor
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Much like all 21st Millennium Remakes and Reboots of Classic and Beloved Series.

You stupid Emo Hipster Dipshits ruin everything.


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Old Post Nov 3rd, 2016 04:53 PM
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queeq
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Quite.

Plus in a reboot Luke would be a woman... oh wait... Rey...


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Old Post Nov 16th, 2016 08:02 PM
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Surtur
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I think a lot of people do overlook the flaws of the OT. One thing that really captivated people with Star Wars was the spectacle. They'd never really seen special effects like that before. Especially for a lot of kids at the time, that is why it made an impression. It wasn't like it had the best acting or directing.

That spectacle is what hooked people, and then it was great movies like Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi that really combined the special effects with quality movies. I find Episode 4 to be, by far, the weakest of the trilogy. It has a special place in peoples hearts because it was the first, but I feel episodes 5 and 6 are leaps and bounds ahead of it.


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Old Post Dec 2nd, 2016 05:23 PM
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queeq
Chaos

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I don't think you really grasp the succes of Ep4 though. It has flaws, but it also has a story that people at the time got. It drew such huge crowds including a lot of people that didn't like sci-fi. They were attracted to the simple fairy tale of a young farmer that goes out to rescue a princess and grow as a person as he went along. Very basic hero's journey story... It wasn't just the spectacle, it was the story and the imagination. Plus, yes the effects had some relevance, it looked like something no one had ever seen before.

ANH is very simple, part of it's strength. It managed to use a simple story to open up a huge universe (one that was made smaller by the PT because people kept running into each other despite the larger amount of planets).

And I would certainly not rate it as the weakest. Because when it comes to the actual narrative there's not much wrong with it. The acting isn't all that great all over, true, it's a bit cheesy, true... But it has something that the PT for instance is totally lacking: heart! ANH is alive. The way it was shot also is more dynamic than the PT, that is leaden, heavy and when it comes to the way it's shot, it's all pretty boring an unimaginative...


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Old Post Dec 3rd, 2016 09:30 AM
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quanchi112
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Big time. Nostalgia for most of these devoted followers of the original trilogy clouds their judgment IMO.


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Old Post Dec 3rd, 2016 04:03 PM
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Lord Lucien
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There's a big difference between not seeing a film's flaws (or TV show's, or book's, or video-game's), and letting those flaws ruin your enjoyment of it--thus making you try to deny that there are any in the first place. And for many subjective elements, what's a flaw to someone might not be to someone else.


The flaws in the OT are numerable--in ANH especially--but most people can take them and still see a very good movie they enjoy watching. Nostalgia will certainly carry it forward for years to come, but just as the original viewers of old black & white films are mostly dead, once the people who grew up with [only] the OT are gone, those movies are going to be viewed and critiqued under a less rosy light---that's just the nature of technological progress and societal change. It will get to a time when they won't be reviewed for enjoyment anymore, they'll only be analyzed for cultural and industrial impact.


The PT has it's young, nostalgic sympathizers, and they'll continue to hold it in esteem for a long time to come---and there's nothing wrong with that; it's their childhood memories. For most others who aren't young enough, the PT's flaws are too many and obvious to overlook and find enjoyment any longer. I agree with Queeq: that chief flaw is that they have no heart, and feel lifeless... but not everyone sees or feels that, which is fine. I have a feeling though that... the ways in which the OT has been received for it's contributions to cinema and pop culture... the PT will not. Nor the Disney films.


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Last edited by Lord Lucien on Dec 4th, 2016 at 02:30 AM

Old Post Dec 4th, 2016 02:24 AM
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Surtur
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Registered: Oct 2008
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Yeah, it just seemed like with the prequels Lucas really just said f*ck it and wrote a shit story and decided to just mask it with state of the art special effects, cgi, etc. It really seemed like what he cared about most was how much cgi he could use and all the blue screens.

I do think episode 3 is still a great movie..you just have to ignore any scene with Anakin and Padme that doesn't involve him force choking her. George Lucas has written some of the worst "romantic" dialogue I've ever heard.


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Old Post Dec 4th, 2016 04:45 AM
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Lord Lucien
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I can't feel invested or care about anything in Ep. 3. It has cool lightsaber choreography, more Palpatine scenes and it's "darker", but it's as emotionally engaging and interesting to me as TPM or AotC. Which is not at all. I guess alot of people feel that some impressive fight choreography carries the day well enough to make a good film, but I don't agree. I need to like the characters and care about what they're doing and why they're doing it, and in RotS I just can't.


Plot inconsistencies, incredibly flat characters, atrocious dialogue (not "cheesy" like in ANH--atrocious like in The Room), gratuitous CGI, boring setpieces, irritating ending, the editing choices (like the overabundance of scene 'wipes'), just... everything that isn't the music.


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Old Post Dec 4th, 2016 07:10 AM
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queeq
Chaos

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Well here's another way to look at it. OT iconography is way stronger than anything the PT has produced. Vader, R2, lightsabers, the Falcon, Boba Fett, Stormtroopers, Chewbacca, Yoda, 3PO, Palpy.... the list goes on and on. PT iconography well... hardly made an impact. Stormtroopers are still cooler than Clones.

Compare that to another fantasy franchise that came out round the time of the PT - LOTR. Everyone knows that iconography. The PT... not so much.

That could be considered an objective way of looking how much impact a franchise had. (The Hobbit did not... it was Jackson's PT).

And age doesn't always mean less for a movie's meaning. I still completely love and adore 1939's Wizard of Oz. It's hugely dated in may ways, but the fun, the heart, the imagination and the life of it has not. And I can enjoy that everyday. The Wicked Witch of the West is still a classic, like Darth Vader, like Sauron and Saruman... and so UNlike the PT Anakin, Grievous, Maul or Dooku.


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Old Post Dec 5th, 2016 10:29 PM
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Darth Thor
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Registered: Apr 2008
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Darth Maul definitely had an impact on pop culture.

Also think Palpatine was more of a Prequel character than an OT, given he was only in a few scenes in ROTJ for the OT.

Also think much of Obi-Wan and Yoda's popularity comes from the PT. Especially Obi-Wan given it was a very different Obi-Wan to the one we saw in the OT, yet it's the PT version people mostly associate with that name now IMO.

And Jar Jar totally impacted pop culture eek!

Old Post Dec 6th, 2016 02:46 PM
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Lord Lucien
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Maul, certainly. Palpatine, sure. Obi-Wan and Yoda have two different version of themselves---OT and everything else. The latter I think is split between the PT and the Clone Wars.




And Jar Jar has had the biggest impact.


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Old Post Dec 6th, 2016 10:14 PM
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queeq
Chaos

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Darth Maul definitely had an impact on pop culture.

Also think Palpatine was more of a Prequel character than an OT, given he was only in a few scenes in ROTJ for the OT.

Also think much of Obi-Wan and Yoda's popularity comes from the PT. Especially Obi-Wan given it was a very different Obi-Wan to the one we saw in the OT, yet it's the PT version people mostly associate with that name now IMO.

And Jar Jar totally impacted pop culture eek!


What a load of crock.

Maul made some impact but mostly to SW fans.

Palpy is all OT (ROTJ)... They enhanced him a bit in the PT, but Palpy's greatest scenes and lines come from the OT. OB1 and Yoda's popularity come from the PT??? I mean... where were you in 1980... Yoda rocked the crap out of the world. No one could believe that was a real size puppet. And to add to that: all of Yoda's most quoted lines are from the OT, NOT the PT.
Even OB1... the guy was made legendary by Alec Guinness... not by McGregor.

You're probably younger than me. But the impact the OT had on the world and the world of movies, even at the time, was HUGE... To me, thinking back to the time of the PT, I think it's LOTR that took the crown worldwide. Lucas fumbled the ball... (not financially of course)

And JarJar... okay, I'll give you that one. That truly is THE icon from the PT: how not to make movie characters!


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Old Post Dec 9th, 2016 10:13 PM
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Lord Lucien
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Yeah I find that many of the quotes and iconography from the PT that gets hailed as "famous" or "timeless" or "legendary" is only among Star Wars fans proper. Among casual viewers I never hear anything more than "Maul was cool, and Jar Jar ruined the movies." That's as far as they know or care.


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Old Post Dec 9th, 2016 11:29 PM
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queeq
Chaos

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Indeed. Quite the legacy.

I wonder: is there any memorable quote from Yoda in the PT at all?

Oh yes, I think from deep down I remember one: "Failed, I have."

Sounds just about right. wink


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Old Post Dec 10th, 2016 09:42 AM
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cdtm
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
What a load of crock.

Maul made some impact but mostly to SW fans.

Palpy is all OT (ROTJ)... They enhanced him a bit in the PT, but Palpy's greatest scenes and lines come from the OT. OB1 and Yoda's popularity come from the PT??? I mean... where were you in 1980... Yoda rocked the crap out of the world. No one could believe that was a real size puppet. And to add to that: all of Yoda's most quoted lines are from the OT, NOT the PT.
Even OB1... the guy was made legendary by Alec Guinness... not by McGregor.

You're probably younger than me. But the impact the OT had on the world and the world of movies, even at the time, was HUGE... To me, thinking back to the time of the PT, I think it's LOTR that took the crown worldwide. Lucas fumbled the ball... (not financially of course)

And JarJar... okay, I'll give you that one. That truly is THE icon from the PT: how not to make movie characters!


LOTR walks all over the PT, no question.

Ironic the company that made them went bankrupt, while the PT stake holders made out like bandits.


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Old Post Dec 13th, 2016 02:57 AM
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Lord Lucien
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According to their Wikipedia page, New Line Cinema had some shady accounting practices going on involving LoTR.


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Old Post Dec 13th, 2016 05:53 AM
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queeq
Chaos

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Yup, almost ruined The Hobbit. But then Peter Jackson did that for us. ;-)


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Old Post Dec 13th, 2016 08:46 AM
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Darth Thor
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by queeq
What a load of crock.

Maul made some impact but mostly to SW fans.

Palpy is all OT (ROTJ)... They enhanced him a bit in the PT, but Palpy's greatest scenes and lines come from the OT. OB1 and Yoda's popularity come from the PT??? I mean... where were you in 1980... Yoda rocked the crap out of the world. No one could believe that was a real size puppet. And to add to that: all of Yoda's most quoted lines are from the OT, NOT the PT.
Even OB1... the guy was made legendary by Alec Guinness... not by McGregor.

You're probably younger than me. But the impact the OT had on the world and the world of movies, even at the time, was HUGE... To me, thinking back to the time of the PT, I think it's LOTR that took the crown worldwide. Lucas fumbled the ball... (not financially of course)

And JarJar... okay, I'll give you that one. That truly is THE icon from the PT: how not to make movie characters!




You're acting as if I said the OT wasn't Iconic or that the PT was more Iconic than the OT.

I was just pointing out the Prequels did also have some impact on Pop culture but clearly not to the same extent.

And yes LOTR was bigger at the time. But The Prequels were certainly more impactful than the Hobbit trilogy (which just kind of came and went), and say what you want about them, but they kept the Saga alive and going.

Old Post Dec 13th, 2016 10:36 AM
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queeq
Chaos

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Impact on pop culture nowadays has EVERYTHING to do with being iconic. If you refer to something on a t-shirt or a tv-show, it must be concise and direct and everyone must be able to understand it. The impact of the PT is mainly negative.

But yes the PT kept the money of the saga flowing... but unfortunately, like The Hobbit, not very memorable. And to be honest, the PT SHOULD have been memorable. And the Hobbit SHOULD have been a single kick-ass movie. Not a drawn out drag of a trilogy. (although, the scenes of Bilbo and Gollem, and Bilbo and Smaug are actually true highlights of modern filmmaking... something that the PT still lacks).


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Old Post Dec 13th, 2016 09:07 PM
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