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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?


Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?
Started by: Azronger

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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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@az, this works for legends only
In canon/composite yoda as of rots is>yoda as of aotc

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 11:32 AM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Relative to Sids and Yoda, how close do you have Dooku to them? Can Dooku take a win? Go down everytime with a good fight? Avoid being ragdolled?

My position is that he may contend in sabers for a short time, real short, but once the Force is introduced, he's got a snowball's chance in hell.


Dooku is powerful enough not to get outright ragdolled by either, but that's about the extent of what he's able to do against them with the Force. He can survive TK but once Sidious whips out Lightning he's toast instantly.

In sabers he can last a minute, but I'm more interested in a discussion of his Force abilities. Legends only, no Canon btw.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 11:57 AM
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ILS
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku is powerful enough not to get outright ragdolled by either, but that's about the extent of what he's able to do against them with the Force. He can survive TK but once Sidious whips out Lightning he's toast instantly.

In sabers he can last a minute, but I'm more interested in a discussion of his Force abilities. Legends only, no Canon btw.
No canon? Butter without the toast?

I'm supposed to ignore that Sidious casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, meanwhile, Dooku couldn't overcome a heavily inexperienced Oppress and Ventress?

How do you reconcile Yoda beating Dooku on a nexus?

How do you reconcile Dooku's Force abilities being rendered irrelevant to Anakin in RotS? Do you think Yoda or Sidious would have any trouble employing their Force abilities against Anakin in a fight, let alone them being obsolete?


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 12:02 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
[B]No canon? Butter without the toast?

I'm supposed to ignore that Sidious casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, meanwhile, Dooku couldn't overcome a heavily inexperienced Oppress and Ventress?


TCW is still part of Legends so it's valid.

quote:
How do you reconcile Yoda beating Dooku on a nexus?


Yoda was stronger than Dooku was on the nexus. That's how.

quote:
How do you reconcile Dooku's Force abilities being rendered irrelevant to Anakin in RotS? Do you think Yoda or Sidious would have any trouble employing their Force abilities against Anakin in a fight, let alone them being obsolete?


Dooku's Force abilities were irrelevant against Yoda as well. Doesn't contradict the idea that the latter couldn't ragdoll him.

Yoda's powers would be useless against Anakin, too. Sidious is another story. Not sure what your point is here, though.


__________________

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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 12:10 PM
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Prof. T.C McAbe
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From the movie and the tv show I got the impression that Dooku is almost or an equal to Yoda in pure Saber skill. He is also a master of the light side and as such on par with the Masters of the council, below Yoda, sure, but which Jedi isn't. His Dark Side training began already and his progress speaks volumes of his intelligence and skills. He is no Sidious but coming to the point of casually using the force lightning is a good indicator of how competent he became. His only problem is his age. I think Sidious might have seen a potential rival in him, if not then he simply was too old to be of any long term use. Anakin was perfect and as Geog Lucas stated, would best Sidious in a fight if healthy. So if Yoda is a 20/20 in Saber and light side and Sidious is a 19/20 in Sabers and Dark Side, I would place Dooku in 19-20/18/17 in Sabers/Light/Dark.

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 12:13 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
TCW is still part of Legends so it's valid.
How do you refute it?

Sidious or Yoda >>> Maul and Prime Opress

Rookie Opress and Ventress >/< Dooku, depending on who you throw slight favour to.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 12:14 PM
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Azronger
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
How do you refute it?

Sidious or Yoda >>> Maul and Prime Opress

Rookie Opress and Ventress >/< Dooku, depending on who you throw slight favour to.


Dooku has been stated to be far more powerful than both his apprentices, and in Y: DR he stomps Ventress by lifting a finger. The fact that they could pose a threat to the Count in all-out fight where sabers are included does not contradict the notion of Dooku somewhat standing up to Yoda in a Force only battle.


__________________

"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 12:32 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
No canon? Butter without the toast?

Yes, people like debating different sh!t than you do. Problem?
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
I'm supposed to ignore that Sidious casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, meanwhile, Dooku couldn't overcome a heavily inexperienced Oppress and Ventress?
[/B]

Yes, in an arc which had Oppress driving back Anakin and Kenobi. The latter of whom seemed to do fine destroying a supposedly superior Oppress while handling Maul. That arc also had Ventress ragdolling Anakin, how we see ragdoll her later in Season 5, and Kenobi who casually cracked her ribs earlier on, simultaneously.

Should we ignore how Dooku was beating a far superior duo to Ventress and Oppress in season 6 Anakin and Kenobi, both of whom have showcased superiority to Ventress and Oppress respectively?

Regardless, we know that Dooku is, "far too powerful" for their combined prowess per another quote from that same source, which makes me wonder which one we should take seriously erm
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
How do you reconcile Yoda beating Dooku on a nexus?
[/B]

Because Dooku can avoid being ragdoll fodder to Yoda without being able to beat him when amped? I'm not seeing the contradiction you're trying to force here sad
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
How do you reconcile Dooku's Force abilities being rendered irrelevant to Anakin in RotS?
[/B]

They were irrelevant because Dooku never had an opportunity to use them as he was being pressed in a duel. Or perhaps we try not to take figurative language literally? erm
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Do you think Yoda or Sidious would have any trouble employing their Force abilities against Anakin in a fight, let alone them being obsolete? [/B]

I'd say yes, because Anakin is very much on their level as force users and in terms of bladework and hence would be able to press them in a fight making use of the force a difficult if possible task. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here though since Yoda and Sidious doing something Dooku cannot proves they are better, not that they are vastly better.

Additionally you seem to be ignoring that Anakin has a form advantage and it's noted that at tier 9 by Nick Gillard that styles make a difference. Hence why Anakin is able to outperform Yoda here. Or do you want us to conclude that Anakin>Yoda? erm

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 12:34 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku has been stated to be far more powerful than both his apprentices, and in Y: DR he stomps Ventress by lifting a finger. The fact that they could pose a threat to the Count in all-out fight where sabers are included does not contradict the notion of Dooku somewhat standing up to Yoda in a Force only battle.
Individually far more powerful, sure. Together they pressed him to his limits. This is before Opress went through a lot more growth and training.

Then you take Maul and prime Opress, who, with their best efforts, couldn't peel themselves off a wall while Sidious cackled. Casually.

Sidious made easier work of a much better duo than the one which came an inch away from killing Dooku. If that doesn't scream ragdoll I don't know what does my dude.

Opress even choked Ventress and Dooku. I know they were caught off-guard and Savage was pissed, but there's no way in hell you would ever see Opress catching Sidious with that shit.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 12:42 PM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Individually far more powerful, sure. Together they pressed him to his limits. This is before Opress went through a lot more growth and training.

Then you take Maul and prime Opress, who, with their best efforts, couldn't peel themselves off a wall while Sidious cackled. Casually.

Sidious made easier work of a much better duo than the one which came an inch away from killing Dooku. If that doesn't scream ragdoll I don't know what does my dude.

Opress even choked Ventress and Dooku. I know they were caught off-guard and Savage was pissed, but there's no way in hell you would ever see Opress catching Sidious with that shit.


All this proves is that Sidious is significantly more powerful than Dooku, which I don't disagree with. I don't see how this somehow proves that he is capable of ragdolling him to the point of the Maul brothers, though. Dooku could have just as easily pinned his apprentices to the wall and held them there if he had wanted to - his handling of Savage merely days prior and his treatment of Ventress in DR is proof enough of this. It is only in an all-out fight when he is chanllenged.


__________________

"Go worth, my child, and impale your enemies with the banner of Sheev." - The_Tempest, Grand Vizier to His Imperial Majesty Sheev Palpatine

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 12:52 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
All this proves is that Sidious is significantly more powerful than Dooku, which I don't disagree with. I don't see how this somehow proves that he is capable of ragdolling him to the point of the Maul brothers, though.
Combined, Maul and Opress' power exceeds Dooku's. Ergo, if Sidious can ragdoll them, he can ragdoll Dooku. At a heavily generous push, even if Dooku is more powerful than them combined, you need to remember that Sidious ragdolled them casually.

Now imagine if Sidious actually tried.

Trying Sidious >>> Effortless Sidious >>> Maul/Opress

So... I'll now ask you... is Dooku so powerful that he's not only more powerful than Maul and Opress combined, but his power can also account for the event in which Sidious exerts serious effort into clutching him? And if that is your stance, how do you substantiate it?

quote:
Dooku could have just as easily pinned his apprentices to the wall and held them there if he had wanted to - his handling of Savage merely days prior and his treatment of Ventress in DR is proof enough of this. It is only in an all-out fight when he is chanllenged.
No doubt he'd ragdoll them one at a time. But how's he going to ragdoll them both at the same time? With them both resisting?


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 01:07 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
but his power can also account for the event in which Sidious exerts serious effort into clutching him?

Why are we assuming that Sidious wasn't putting serious effort into pinning them? That Sidious toyed with them in a lightsaber duel hardly proves that Sidious wouldn't be putting serious effort in pinning them with the force.

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 01:21 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
Why are we assuming that Sidious wasn't putting serious effort into pinning them? That Sidious toyed with them in a lightsaber duel hardly proves that Sidious wouldn't be putting serious effort in pinning them with the force.
Sidious showed serious effort when fighting Yoda with TK. The Maul bros showed serious effort trying to get out of Sidious' clutches.

Sidious had his hands outstretched and a smile on his face. If he was using effort there's little to indicate it. At least, he could have put far more in.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 01:27 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Sidious showed serious effort when fighting Yoda with TK. The Maul bros showed serious effort trying to get out of Sidious' clutches.

And yet the movie shows Sidious laughing his ass off when throwing the pods or when he was initially blasting Yoda with lightning.

Was Sidious not putting serious effort into fighting Yoda with the force? erm
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Sidious had his hands outstretched

Well, yes, that's how you use the force.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
and a smile on his face. If he was using effort there's little to indicate it. At least, he could have put far more in.

I recall him smiling a lot when dealing with Yoda too. Was he toying with Yoda when he fought him? erm

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 01:32 PM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Combined, Maul and Opress' power exceeds Dooku's. Ergo, if Sidious can ragdoll them, he can ragdoll Dooku. At a heavily generous push, even if Dooku is more powerful than them combined, you need to remember that Sidious ragdolled them casually.

Now imagine if Sidious actually tried.

Trying Sidious >>> Effortless Sidious >>> Maul/Opress

So... I'll now ask you... is Dooku so powerful that he's not only more powerful than Maul and Opress combined, but his power can also account for the event in which Sidious exerts serious effort into clutching him? And if that is your stance, how do you substantiate it?


Maul + Savage > Dooku is a baseless assertion that you have not offered any proof for so far. Your entire argument relies on an unproven notion, and thus is invalid. I, on the other hand, can quite easily substantiate my stance with these:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched

--Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.

--Fact File


quote:
No doubt he'd ragdoll them one at a time. But how's he going to ragdoll them both at the same time? With them both resisting?


Dooku exerted so little effort when ragdolling both individually, that it's not out of the question at all to suggest he could ragdoll them at the same time. If lifting a finger to stomp Ventress is enough of a distraction for Savage to be not ragdolled, that would mean he is relative to Dooku in power, but that's simply untrue as is rather blatantly seen from their training sessions only a few days earlier, when Dooku casually ragdolled Savage with zero effort and managed to lift a dozen obelisks while Savage could only lift two with a rage amp. Putting that into raw numbers would make Dooku almost ten times stringer than Savage. Ten. That is an absolutely insane gap.

So basically, my point here is that if Dooku only requires to exert 10 % of his power to dominate either, he still has 90 % left for the other and is capable of dominating them too. So no matter which one Dooku ragdolls first, the other is still screwed.


__________________

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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 01:35 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Maul + Savage > Dooku is a baseless assertion that you have not offered any proof for so far. Your entire argument relies on an unproven notion, and thus is invalid.
Does it become more valid when I spell it out for you?

Maul's got plenty of great feats/accolades/hype etc. So does Opress. When an inferior duo took on Dooku, they nearly killed him. Together they outweigh Dooku.

Are these three Yoda quotes your only basis for Dooku being above the Maul bros, or do you have something else?

Your argument would fly, but Dooku's performance against Ventress and Opress is a severe limiting factor. If not for that, if our only notion of Dooku's abilities was his performance against Yoda, perhaps the quotes would work for you. Then, Yoda not wrecking Dooku would make sense, because it just looks like two close competitors fighting.

When you add in the Ventress/Opress fight, and compare it to Sidious vs Maul/Opress, it shows exactly what levels these Sith are on - two very different levels. So now, we need an explanation for why Dooku did so well against Sidious' peer.

People have come up with varying reasons, like Yoda being rusty, him having time to grow before RotS, him wanting to take it easy on Dooku, him not being a vicious fighter in general (I like the latter two). For whatever reason, Yoda didn't give it 100% when he fought Dooku, he didn't even try to TK him, and it's not because he couldn't.

quote:
I, on the other hand, can quite easily substantiate my stance with these:

The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched

--Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.

--The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

The old Master was so accomplished in every aspect of the Force that until the Battle of Geonosis he had rarely needed to resort to his weapon. When he did, he proved as masterful with it as without.

--Fact File


They were too evenly matched, in that one instance, because Yoda didn't do anything other than deflect Dooku's attacks. Yoda may have attempted to defeat Dooku, by deflecting his lightning, but that's very different from attempting to slap him into a coma with TK. He didn't do that.

Neither bested the other, in that one instance, because Yoda didn't try to best Dooku in any way other than deflecting his attacks.

He had to resort to his lightsaber, in that one instance, because, as is obvious, he wasn't willing to employ serious telekinetic force to Dooku, for whatever reason.

I get your argument. You're saying Yoda didn't attack Dooku because it wouldn't have yielded positive results. I'm saying Yoda could have, and chose not to, for whatever reason.

The quotes you've provided only work if you remove context, which is Star Wars debating in a nutshell these days. From a storytelling standpoint, from a feat standpoint... from a standpoint of sanity... I find it incredibly hard to believe that Dooku can stand up to Sidious and Yoda. You have to create an unrealistic gap between Maul and Dooku to bridge this very realistic gap between Dooku and Sidious.

Dooku's an apprentice, just like Maul. Sidious is the master. It's not just thematic, it makes perfect sense.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 01:59 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Dooku exerted so little effort when ragdolling both individually, that it's not out of the question at all to suggest he could ragdoll them at the same time. If lifting a finger to stomp Ventress is enough of a distraction for Savage to be not ragdolled, that would mean he is relative to Dooku in power, but that's simply untrue as is rather blatantly seen from their training sessions only a few days earlier, when Dooku casually ragdolled Savage with zero effort and managed to lift a dozen obelisks while Savage could only lift two with a rage amp. Putting that into raw numbers would make Dooku almost ten times stringer than Savage. Ten. That is an absolutely insane gap.

So basically, my point here is that if Dooku only requires to exert 10 % of his power to dominate either, he still has 90 % left for the other and is capable of dominating them too. So no matter which one Dooku ragdolls first, the other is still screwed.
Your math seems on point. So now I need to ask:

If Dooku ragdolling Ventress is fair game for evidence, why isn't Sidious choking Dooku across the galaxy?


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:09 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
My position is that he may contend in sabers for a short time, real short, but once the Force is introduced, he's got a snowball's chance in hell.

^^^^ Your stance here seems to be that Dooku can do better in sabers against Yoda than he can regarding the force.

Yet all the evidence you're using regard Dooku's performance as a duelist:
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
I'm supposed to ignore that Sidious casually ragdolled Maul and Savage, meanwhile, Dooku couldn't overcome a heavily inexperienced Oppress and Ventress?

Setting aside this is factually wrong, he did overcome them, albeit barely, and that this isn't so bad when you consider Oppress was portrayed as>Anakin and Kenobi and Ventress was potrayed as being far more powerful than both, this had nothing to do with Dooku's force abilities.

We see that Dooku can easily subdue either with the force in the same arc and starwars.com explicitly states Dooku was far more powerful than his apprentices in relation to their combined assault.

Dooku failing to subdue them with the force would come down to the duo pressing him enough in sabers that he isn't afforded the opportunity to abuse the force to a sufficient extent.

quote:
How do you reconcile Yoda beating Dooku on a nexus?

Yes, in a duel, though I'm not sure how Yoda being superior to Dooku on a nexus translates to him being a vastly superior force user.

Regardless, the force is never utilized here, so I'm wondering what your point is erm
quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
How do you reconcile Dooku's Force abilities being rendered irrelevant to Anakin in RotS? Do you think Yoda or Sidious would have any trouble employing their Force abilities against Anakin in a fight, let alone them being obsolete?

Since we want to take this quote literally, all it's saying is that Dooku can't utilize the force against Anakin as he's being pressed by a superior duelist. So again, I'm failing to grasp your point.

You seem to have missed that Anakin has a style edge against the good count. Significant because it's stated by Gillard that between tier 9's, it comes down to stylistic differences.

Hence why Anakin, before growing in power when turning to the darkside, is able to outperform Yoda against Dooku despite being Yoda's inferior, albeit a marginal one.




Wanna elaborate swords?

Last edited by Rockydonovang on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 02:17 PM

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:14 PM
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Azronger
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Get the **** outta my thread right now, kbro.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:17 PM
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Rockydonovang
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Get the **** outta my thread right now, kbro.

Tis, a public forum I'm afraid.

So that'll have to be a no bud. Sorry sad

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 02:19 PM
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