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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?


Dooku and Palpatine/Yoda - is there parity in Force strength?
Started by: Azronger

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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Are you senile? I already acknowledged it's non-canonicity.

thumb up Fair enough then

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 05:24 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
Location:


 

Will make a full response, just want to clarify something:

quote:
So your argument here is that because Ventress was Dooku's loyal apprentice, she would not try resist or fight back, which is the exact same logic I use to dismiss Sidious choking Dooku via holo. Fair enough, I would not want to employ double standards. However, fortunately for me, I do have an instance where Dooku dominates Ventress and she definitely was trying to resist:
So you were fine with using the DR choke as evidence until the same logic worked for Sidious?...


__________________
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—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 05:41 PM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
Location: At the forefront of Sheev's armies


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Will make a full response, just want to clarify something:

So you were fine with using the DR choke as evidence until the same logic worked for Sidious?...


Yes, because the thought hadn't really crossed my mind that the same logic could be applied to Ventress/Dooku. But now that you brought it up, I'll no longer use it.


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Last edited by Azronger on Sep 3rd, 2017 at 05:46 PM

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 05:44 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
Location:


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
Yes, because the thought hadn't really crossed my mind that the same logic could be applied to Ventress/Dooku. But now that you brought it up, I'll no longer use it.
wink

So it mostly depends on whose wrinkled nuts you're guzzling at the given time.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 05:47 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
Will make a full response,:



Good.. Gooooood....

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 05:47 PM
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thesithmaster
Dark Lord of the Sith

Registered: Jul 2017
Location: The Sith Temple


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
I have never understood why it's a difficult concept to grasp.

Yoda and Sidious are peers. Sidious makes Dooku look like an ant. You can reconcile Yoda not utterly demolishing Dooku because of his Jedi morals/emotional investment in his former padawan. Sidious would have no such qualms about slaughtering Dooku if needed.

Ergo, if Yoda really wanted to crumple Dooku up into a ball, he could, pretty easily.


thumb up thumb up thumb up thumb up thumb up

This guy is pretty wise.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 05:57 PM
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XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
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Registered: Aug 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ILS
wink

So it mostly depends on whose wrinkled nuts you're guzzling at the given time.


thumb up


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 06:02 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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That was fire, ngl.

Regardless, is there a reason we're still acting like what applies to AOTC Yoda applies to ROTS Yoda who both overcame his attachment to Dooku and then perfected his spirit in season 6 of TCW?

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 06:03 PM
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ChocolateMuesli
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Perfected his spirit? Dead.

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 06:16 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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Lmao


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 06:20 PM
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Emperordmb
LSDMB

Registered: Mar 2014
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Emperordmb is online now!

Either way, it's obvious you can't remotely scale Dooku off of ROTS Yoda's showings.


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Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 06:28 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Rockydonovang
That was fire, ngl.

Regardless, is there a reason we're still acting like what applies to AOTC Yoda applies to ROTS Yoda who both overcame his attachment to Dooku and then perfected his spirit in season 6 of TCW?



Which all went to shit when he went on an assisination mission to murder Palpatine.

He said himself at the conclusion of S6, that by fighting, by being soldiers, the Sith had won.

Yoda comes to the same realisation (again?) in the ROTS novel, in his fight with Palpatine.

Post ROTS Yoda (and Ben) Only use the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never for attack, hence Ben's fight against Maul, and Yoda's teaching to Luke.

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 06:32 PM
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Rockydonovang
freedom fighter

Registered: Dec 2016
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ChocolateMuesli
Perfected his spirit? Dead.

We know emotional confrontation leads to growth:
quote:
"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you."

I wonder how you reckon this would make someone more powerful:

quote:
Visas has come to terms with the death of her world and calmed the hatred within herself. This has given her a stronger connection to the Force, and a bonus to her Force points.

while reckoning that Yoda's confrontations between AOTC and ROTS wouldn't erm

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 06:44 PM
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relentless1
Dark Overlord of KMC

Registered: Aug 2014
Location: Your Moms house


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which all went to shit when he went on an assisination mission to murder Palpatine.

He said himself at the conclusion of S6, that by fighting, by being soldiers, the Sith had won.

Yoda comes to the same realisation (again?) in the ROTS novel, in his fight with Palpatine.

Post ROTS Yoda (and Ben) Only use the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never for attack, hence Ben's fight against Maul, and Yoda's teaching to Luke.


I love that you actually understand the story arc of the Jedi, most people gripe about Yoda depiction in the PT because he's so different awn he is in ESB which is actually the whole point; the Jedi had to be humbled and shaken out of their hubris by the Sith in order to be the monastic wise teachers that they were in the OT

Old Post Sep 3rd, 2017 07:38 PM
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BlueTiger1144
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2017
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which all went to shit when he went on an assisination mission to murder Palpatine.

He said himself at the conclusion of S6, that by fighting, by being soldiers, the Sith had won.

Yoda comes to the same realisation (again?) in the ROTS novel, in his fight with Palpatine.

Post ROTS Yoda (and Ben) Only use the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never for attack, hence Ben's fight against Maul, and Yoda's teaching to Luke.

So, the Jedi choosing not to use the force for attack like soldiers, but using it only for defense and knowledge, makes them more powerful?

Old Post Sep 4th, 2017 01:14 PM
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Haschwalth
Senior Member

Registered: Jul 2017
Location:


 

Loving this Dooku=<Yoda=<Sidious>>>Dooku

Primary Canonical feats(movies)>Quotes that contradict showings within primary canon.

Old Post Sep 4th, 2017 01:31 PM
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Darth Thor
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Asgard


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by BlueTiger1144
So, the Jedi choosing not to use the force for attack like soldiers, but using it only for defense and knowledge, makes them more powerful?



It seems so, yeah. Because they're more in tune with the Light Side of the Force, and more true to being a Jedi.

Kind of like how being more violent, having more anger and hatred would make you more powerful in the dark side and as a Sith.

Exceptional case like Mace Windu using his dark feelings as a weapon of light notwithstanding.

Old Post Sep 4th, 2017 02:44 PM
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Lord Stark
Lord of Winterfell

Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Winterfell


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Which all went to shit when he went on an assisination mission to murder Palpatine.

He said himself at the conclusion of S6, that by fighting, by being soldiers, the Sith had won.

Yoda comes to the same realisation (again?) in the ROTS novel, in his fight with Palpatine.

Post ROTS Yoda (and Ben) Only use the Force for Knowledge and Defense, never for attack, hence Ben's fight against Maul, and Yoda's teaching to Luke.


Yup. In Rebels Yoda flat out says the Jedi Order (including himself) was consumed by the Dark Side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDKMdMDPcpY


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2017 02:50 PM
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ILS
Sith Lord

Registered: Oct 2014
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Azronger
The issue here is that you are once again adding in sabers to the mix. In a pure Force fight, Dooku would annihilate Ventress and Savage, and you've not managed to contest that notion (so far). Them being an inferior team to Maul and Savage is not an issue against Dooku here, because the arguments you have presented so far only restrict Dooku to being the Zabrak's inferior in sabers (even that is arguable, but I'll leave it for another time), but they do not tie him down in the realm of the Force, where you already essentially conceded that Yoda not wrecking Dooku makes sense if the Ventress/Savage fight is not factored in - which it isn't as it doesn't limit Dooku as a Force user in any capacity.
He's much more powerful than them individually, but I'm not totally convinced he is so powerful he would merk them as a team. He has to split his attention between both of them, which takes a lot of brain power - as is seen during the fight, where he has to divert all his attention to Savage to use his lightning, before re-engaging Ventress.

Someone of Dooku's calibre pimp slapping two elite Force users at the same time is unprecedented, however far beyond them he may be on an individual or even collective basis. Your maths seems to make sense on paper, but does that mean in practice it's going to work out? I think there's a reason Sidious is among the only Sith who have that kind of showing. The only others were brief bursts of rage from Savage and Ventress.

As you've argued already, it only takes Dooku one finger to constrict Ventress - in fact, since you no longer believe in that showing, Dooku needs to duel and Force push her first, then ragdoll her. Equally you've suggested it took him little effort to constrain Savage.

How is it that in his many moments of respite (they engaged him one at a time for the most part) he didn't just pin them both? I'm not convinced that them having lightsabers in their hands prevented that from happening. Unlike with Yoda, Dooku would have absolutely no inhibitions from pinning them both if he could.

Anyway... I think I'm being a little generous here. Let's just go straight to the evidence and look at this practically. A Force user's command of the Force is the core factor in how the fight will play out. It factors into both TK and dueling.

In terms of both TK and dueling, there are numerous quotes suggesting that Sidious toyed with the Maul brothers (I believe you're familiar with them). So, whether they're attacking him with lightsabers or the Force, they don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, right?

Let's compare that to how a rookie Savage and Ventress are described as matching up to Dooku:

quote:
"But Dooku proved too strong for even their combined efforts - and Savage finally snapped under the strain of his abusive training, turning his fury on both Dooku and Ventress."

Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/as...ography-gallery


quote:
"Dooku's Sith mastery barely gave him the edge over his former apprentices."

Source: http://www.starwars.com/databank/sa...ography-gallery


And there's others describing Dooku as too powerful for them to beat/was powerful enough to escape. So, from what we can tell, Dooku "barely" had "the edge" over their combined might.

Going by this description, if Dooku was faced with Darth Maul (a clearly superior combatant to Ventress) and a much more experienced and well trained Savage, his defeat would be certain.

You make the excuse that "if it was just a Force fight" - but it is a Force fight. Their command of the Force manifests not just in their TK, but in their dueling skill, and all parties here have demonstrated an interest in training their dueling skill as best as they can.

The difference between Sidious and Dooku is that, when he's fighting Maul and Savage, it doesn't matter what category we're discussing - he will dominate.

Dooku, on the other hand, would surely lose a lightsaber contest not by merit of a skill or physical deficiency (Sidious is an old midget with less lightsaber experience than Dooku), but because his command of the Force isn't greater than Maul and Savage's combined. Similarly, his command of the Force regarding TK isn't greater than their's combined, and I see no evidence to suggest as much. Whatever his power with TK is, it barely saved him from Savage and Ventress, so surely it won't save him here, let alone against Sidious.

quote:
This is factually false. George Lucas himself, the highest authority in Star Wars, wrote this piece of text personally:

YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head.

YODA_(continuing):_The end for you, Count, this is.

--Attack of the Clones script

So Yoda went into the fight with the intended purpose of killing Dooku. If he could have crumbled Dooku into a ball with the Force like you say, he would have.
I also believe Yoda wanted to kill Dooku... that doesn't mean he has to adhere to the most efficient method of killing him. He isn't a Sith. There are countless scenarios where party X could kill party Y using TK, but chooses to kill/maim them in a different way. This is especially characteristic of Jedi, because they aren't vicious butchers who ragdoll and rip apart their opponents with TK: they aren't even encouraged to grip their opponents with TK, only manipulate the environment around them to win, e.g throwing objects or deflecting lightning back to the sender. The most they tend to do, if they're behaving, is send a wave of Force energy at their enemy.

You're always falling into this trap of "if he could have, he would have" - but if you evaluate what is going on in the mind of the character, their values and moral codes, rather than looking at their behaviour through the lens of a battle forum scenario, you would see why not everything happens the way that'd make most practical sense.

quote:
Um, no. Yoda's goal was Dooku's death. The quote states Yoda needed to use his lightsaber in his fight against Dooku despite praising his command of the Force just a sentence earlier. Therefore, Yoda could not have killed Dooku with the Force, if he needed to resort to his lightsaber.
Yoda's goal is to kill Dooku, but he's not going to Force choke/ragdoll him to do it. Again, he's not a Sith. He resorted to using his lightsaber because he wouldn't be able to defeat Dooku just by passively deflecting every Force attack that comes his way. You're assuming Yoda is willing to employ every form of brutal violence to gain victory, when really, Jedi are incredibly restrained Force users at the best of times.

quote:
However, in the case of Dooku and Maul, the former has been portrayed as superior since day one. Just compare their respective performances against Obi-Wan.
I'll concede Dooku has better accolades than Maul, especially considering the ones you posted below comparing them directly. But I don't think comparing their bouts against Obi-Wan is a great comparison: Obi-Wan's style plays directly into Dooku's hands, meanwhile Soresu is your best bet for stonewalling Juyo. On the other hand, Maul's fighting style and personal attributes are far more problematic for Dooku than Obi-Wan's, due to his impressive striking power, fanatical levels of aggression, choppy, unpredictable striking patterns etc.

Anyway, whether Dooku beats Maul and by how much is one debate. You need to prove he can emphatically defeat Maul and Savage with regards to telekinesis, with such a disparity that a Sidious who, not toying around, not smiling and laughing, but really trying to kill Dooku, cannot break his Force shields and ragdoll him. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

quote:
In addition, we have Plagueis musing Dooku would be a worthy candidate for a Sith apprentice should Sidious blow his cover, and objective quotes saying Dooku could have one day been Yoda's equal in the Force, or in other words, his potential equals Yoda's, and given how aged the Count is, he should have attained most of it by the time of his death. It makes total sense and is perfectly realistic to say he's closer to Yoda and Sidious than he is to Maul.

Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.

--Insider 113

Maul was also intended to take the reigns from Sidious should he need to one day, and was a real apprentice from day one. Your quote doesn't say Dooku has equal Force potential to Yoda, it says he's universally respected and one day would have been a Master on par with Yoda... in an unknown capacity. Given the context of Dooku's description - his reputation in the Order - it seems like the quote is saying one day Dooku would have had the same respect as Yoda among the Jedi, but instead of attaining that reputation, he joined the Jedi's enemies. Similar to the quotes saying Yoda and Mace should be held in equal regard as council members.

Lol, even if we take the quote the way you want it to be taken, it's saying that because Dooku left the Jedi, he would never be on par with Yoda. Now, that's ridiculous, because when Dooku became a Sith, his power increased, he developed a wider range of combat skills, and he was freed of his Jedi restraint. Your interpretation makes no sense, because as usual, you're ignoring context.

quote:
But ultimately, whether any of this makes sense to you is irrelevant, because you are just a fan, like me, and not a canonical authority. If you want to prove me wrong, you have to use logic, not claims about something being unrealistic in your personal opinion.
I agree. Hence, I don't think you've got logical chops to pull this off.


__________________
“There are aspects of who we are that can only be revealed to us in the deepest pit of intolerable suffering, in those moments when all else is torn away—when we stand at the very brink of eternity itself and stare death in the face.”
—Darth Sidious

Old Post Sep 4th, 2017 05:15 PM
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Azronger
Vanguard of the Sheevites

Registered: Jun 2016
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Good post, I'll respond sometime soon


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Old Post Sep 4th, 2017 06:54 PM
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