Gender: Male Location: Welfare Kingdom of California
Religion isn't bad. What's bad is the amount of distortion ppl make about their religion. Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam all of them have suffer miscopsections (sp?) and ppl twisted for their own agendas.
I have few friends that are muslim, and they never threatened to blow me up.
I was always well welcomed in their home, i was even invited to celebrate ramadan with them. I wasnt requiered to pray or do any things they do, but i was given lots and lots of food and i got some presents too.
I think there are people who are extreamist, and are using religion to start a war. There are good and bad people in all religions, as long as no one is forcing their views upon me, or is making me convert to their religions or sects, its all good.
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في هذا العالم ثلاثة أشخاص أفسدوا البشرية : راعي غنم , طبيب و راكب الجمال , و راكب الجمال هو أسوأ نشال و أسوأ مشعوذ بين الثلاثة
I doubt very much that many who are Christian will “forget” that we “were” responsible for some gross atrocities during the early parts of our histories: the Spanish inquisition, the conversions of indigenous tribes in the new world and Asia for that matter…even today there are Protestants killing Catholics and vice versa…and if they “do” forget then they are deluding themselves…but the Christian roots were based on the teachings of Jesus, can you then say he was out to conquer the world by the sword?…and yes, not every Muslim is a terrorist. But the Muslim moderates are kept quiet or keep quiet because they know to say anything that is considered detrimental or even a slight against their religion or cause would be deemed heresy or blasphemous…and the price for that is too heavy to pay
A Christian layman is not “forced” to follow the rules…if he wishes to apostate himself he suffers the consequences at the time of Judgment so says the scriptures. But he will not be subject to bodily harm or even death, nor will his family suffer for his transgressions in this day in age…and I repeat: “In this day in age.”…Can a Muslim claim the same if he were to apostate himself, in this day in age? A man entering the priesthood does so by choice, and even in our early history; those who became monks or priests did so by choice. If you argue that they were forced, then our history and understanding is quite different and possibly on an alternate reality…when it was decreed that marriage is not for those in service to God, it was out of some sense of a gross misunderstanding to emulate Christ in/and his virtues, which in our time has become an utter failure and I do not doubt it was so in the past. The difference between Islam and Judeo-Christian thinking is that the latter God gave us a free will…in Islam there is no free will…they cannot choose their own path
And again here too, the crusades are a source of endless arguments to create some moral equivalence between Muslims and Christians: the first being the victim, the second being the aggressors…Ironically, most Christians and Europeans today forget that the crusades were a belated military response to more than 3 centuries of Muslim aggression…the myth that still lingers today is that peaceful Muslims were forced to take up arms against the crusaders…but centuries before A.D. 1095, (the supposed starting point of the crusades) the Muslim armies swept through the Byzantine Empire and conquered about 2/3’s of the Christian world of that time…many today have criticized the crusades because of the atrocities it inflicted in Jerusalem in 1099…The new world??? Columbus journeyed to discover a new route to India and the Spice Island and to prove the world was round but ended up in central America…the puritans landed on Plymouth Rock to escape religious persecution in England…the French wanted to kept the English in check who wanted to expand their (English) empire…the Spanish wanted to reclaim their former glory as a world empire, but never did even if their coffers were loaded with Aztec gold from Columbus’ failed attempt to circumnavigate the globe…and to each of them came the missionaries to convert the indigenous tribes…secondary to the reasons why they came to the new world…
And I agree…a lot of killings have happened in the cause of religious beliefs and ideas, especially in the latter half of the 20th century to now…Christians killing Muslims and vice versa within the African states…the Balkans, Kashmir, East Timor, and where ever there is conflict base on religion…but who is the defender and who are the aggressors?
Have the Christians in these parts risen up to claim theirs is the true religion and all others are a cancerous sore in the eyes of God? And to create a theocratic state based on principals taught to us by Jesus? And to deny, denounce, and blaspheme against it is instant death with no recourse? Are they bent on world conquer because they have an extreme hatred for all things Western? Or are we deluding ourselves that the few Muslim fanatics are just that, few with no logistic support, no power base, and little to gain if they win this supposed “war on terrorism”?
Again, I reiterate. The question asked was whether Islam is holding back the Arab Nations? And though that question is quite vague and none too specific…but the gist of it is not whether Christianity may or may not have been better than Islam, but “what” is holding back the Muslim world?
…is Islam holding Arab Nations Back? Was the question and it is of my opinion that what holds them back is choice.
Choice to live their lives beyond what and how they are told to do so either by religious or political decree…
I am not so naďve to think that there are guarantees in our Western culture, but we are at least given that choice to live and become what and who we are as we see fit….
Today you are what you are finti, tomorrow you may decide to be something else entirely…the dilemma for you is how would this affect your community, your family and your friends. But in the end because of our lifestyle and those things we value so much, you will be accepted…can the same be true for a Muslim?
Any one of you can be or may have been born into a Christian family…but decide when you’re older to be something other than what you were born into…be it a conversion to a different faith or a denial of a God…would you be ostracized? Jailed? Persecuted? Stoned? And your family harassed to the point that they deny your existence. can the same be true for a Muslim?
All of you at one point or another have cried out that your political leaders are no different that what is at the bottom of a barrel and that your government is laxed or corrupt or evil…but has that cause you to fear the authorities for your inflammatory words? Are your phones tapped, your computer hacked, and every shadow or out of place looking individual is haunting your steps? And you spend your days looking over your shoulders…can the same be true for a Muslim?
We all spend our days in an unguarded and complacent free life fraught with choices…to speak our minds, to do what we wish within the frameworks of the law, to practice what we believe, to be something other than what we are…to argue, to debate, to deny and to accept…can this be true for a Muslim?
What holds them back: the power to choose…and whether that choice is good or bad is not for anyone to decide but for the one making that choice.
Last edited by Fëanor on Aug 11th, 2004 at 06:27 PM
eh not all of us have cried out about our political leaders, see here you generalize as you do with muslims. Go to Turkey and see how they have it there. That is a muslim country and it is pretty free when it comes to most things you stated above. Spain must be considered a christian country and during the Franco regime nothing much was really free then, more like you mentioned in your post. Take a some of the South American countries, cant speak to freely in all of them, and those countries are highly religious in a christian way. Israel censor the press they aint a muslims country, they suppress the muslims and other Arabs in their country though.
The problems with S.A is secular oppression not religious…the state of their economy and their political ideologies are stifling and precarious at best…one is not persecuted for his religious beliefs but for what political party one belongs to. And many a times those unfortunate people escape for economic and political reasons, the former outweighing the latter. And many enjoin political parties or ideologies opposite to that which is in power, and to those that do outside mainstream politics are branded outlaws and rebels…to which the governments will stop at nothing to annihilate these so called brigands.
As fort the regime of Franco, it too was a secular reason and not religious…in line with Mussolini or Hitler for that matter but without the gross atrocities that Hitler applied.
According to Human Rights Watch dated 1999, a report by the CIA in 1997 entitled “State Failure Task Force” identified Turkey as a nation in danger of collapse: “The resulting erosion of the ruling stratum’s self-confidence has led to increased oppression. Journalists now risk fines, imprisonment, bans, or violent attacks if they write about “the role of Islam in politics and society” or “the proper role of the military in government and society.”
Regardless of its political structure, Turkey’s politics are based on an Islamic ethics. It’s documented that Turkey is explicit in their rejection of the contemporary Western way of life, values, and ideology. And they refuse to make any concessions on Cyprus. Consequently they ordered Greeks living on the part of the island they invaded in 1974 to leave within 24 hours. Villages and towns of Greek origin were attacked without provocation. By the time the dust settled, 4,000 men, women, and children were dead…the entire Greek population on the Turkish side of Cypress were wiped out or ethnically cleansed…so yes, it is free if your Turkish and you watch what you say.
Israel…what is there to say about Israel that hasn’t been said: good or bad…the Israeli Arab is treated like second citizen? Most likely. Are the papers censored? Most likely to benefit Israelis…or quite possible to stem incitement of it’s Arab citizens. Are there Arabs by descent elected on their legislature? Yes, but that party has yet to reach the clout of it’s fellow co politicians…when a country as small as Israel is surround by a predominant Arab Muslim countries, your choices seem limited when those surrounding countries deepest wishes and desire is nothing but total annihilation of Israel and its denizens. You more or less live in a constant state of fear, and to a lesser degree paranoia.
And if you’re one of the few or the many that have nothing bad to say about the government or the leaders then I count you and them more fortunate that those that have. And if I generalize, it is because to be specific is to claim that I know more than I do which I don’t. Without hard facts, documentations, reports, there is no reason to be specific and even if with those things, one can’t be too specific for fear of losing the interest of those willing to read my posts…but most of what I do post are not generalizations, but evidenced fact and some of an historical note.
Last edited by Fëanor on Aug 11th, 2004 at 08:37 PM
they are aiming to be part of the EU so they wont monkey around jepordizing that opportunity by having restrictions on freedom of press and people and so on.
never called my political leaders evil
Journalist risks violent attacks from extremists not government, CIA who the hell trusts them, they try to make all governments that are of a none chrisitan view look bad
if it is religious opression you looking for well as Islam is younger than chrisitanity they have some years to go before we can compare them on equal terms . When chrisitianity was around 1400 years they were oppressive as hell. Wonder why that age was called the dark ages.
A wind of change will hit muslim countries too one cant oppress and withhold all info from the outside world ,and when that time comes they might have their renaissance as well.
(too much to quote here, Fëanor, so I'll just answer like that
about people knowing their religion hasn't always been peaceful; that's your opinion, my opinion is that they easily forgot it...
about the swords... reread the bible, Luke 22: 38 is considered as the base of the conquering... It is used by Bonifatius VIII in his bull Unam Sanctam in 1302 based on the scripture of De Ecclesiastica Potestate by Aegidius Romanus as the prove that the church has the right to conquer the world and in general be the big boss. (I'm not gonna type the theory here cause all someone would do is just reject it and would be a waste of my time typing it, if people are interested, they can pm me)
and with the consequences of not following the rules, you make a mistake (that or I misread you, which is highly likely of course), but there is a difference between a country where the majority are muslim and having a "western democratic" constitution and a country where the majority are muslim and having the sharia, that's exactly the same as daring to say you weren't chrisitian in 1400-1500 in Spain (the age the islam has around now in christian years) (and don't forget, the religion being 622 years younger makes a BIG difference): it would get you seriously into trouble if not death, I can't talk good about a country which uses religion in their constitution... there is no place for god in a law as there is no place for a brussel sprout on my plate.
(btw; I did not intend to claim that priests and monks are forced into "service", that must have been a misunderstanding, but do note that tradition was that the first son would become a priest or at least someone whose life was devoted to god)
Well, what YOU mistake with the muslims is that you think of them as one big pile of muslims (bad saying)... a protestant is a christian, so is a catholic,... but a protestant isn't a catholic. that's the same thing with the muslims, you say they invaded and plundered Byzantium... that's true, but the Seldjouks (sp) were the ones that currently held the part were Jeruzalem was located and they never touched the holy places or jews and christians. That can not be said by the other dynasties in the past of course (I only know the Seldjouks by name here cause I had it as a Q on my exam middle ages, the only other name I can remember are the Amorayads, seriously gotta get my book back)
(I don't follow your whole writing about the new world...cause it seems to me you're pointing out that people misbehaved there )
and you know ... it's just a pain to see this all... Balkan etc... it all started so many decades if not centuries ago and there is just so little hope of stopping it since people are stupid enough to just not stop killing and bringing pain
though do note that these christian "hotspots" are located right in the middle of a full islamic continent, for some hotheads it's just a thorn in the eye. If mexico or worse... Cuba was Islamic, Bush at this point would have gone insane and would threaten to bomb them already...why? because all the other countries nearby aren't and you alwas have maniacs who think they can kill out of "protecting their religion"
and yeah,... we're drifting offtopic here... my opinion is that it depends on each country... which constitution do they have? how is religion integrated in it? and like said if the khalifa and sharia are integrated together, it's one big pile of poo imo, since like said, religion has no place in an independant and free country.
yerrsot - in all likelyhood our debate has somewhat gone off the mark as we didn't state the reason why islam has or has not held the arab world back...we've discussed everything from the early muslim expansion to the bloody and failed crusade...
even as to which is or is not peaceful and to which of the two were or are bloodier in comparison...had we had this same conversation in a room with educated and intelligent moderators of religious history, they would come to the same conclusion...that you and I have reached an impasse...as well with finti
we may be right or we may be wrong in our insight to such a volatile subject...especially when we let reason take a backseat to our emotions...yet I and I do think you as well, have tried to avail our thoughts with reason and intellect without it being tainted with what our heart is concerned with...to do so would muddy what is already a cloudy subject and to others who may look at it with a jaded view...
but I conclude, that whatever the answers are to the question that ash posed will never truly be known...for it may be varied or it may be none...only time will tell...and let us hope it will not be a repeat of history...
your counterpoints to my points have been refreshing in that you pose it with intelligence and forethought and a thorough understanding of history and current events...it has been an honour and truly wonderful to have met my match or my better...
Fëanor&Yerssot> What a pleasure to read your civilised debate.
So forgive me for rushing in at this late hour, but something struck me while reading through your posts and quotes.
In both Islam and Christianity you can find stuff that says women are inferior to men. The KKK uses the Genesis part with Noah to justify racism, and Islam has the Holy War in Gods name.
Now: Both religions are based on texts written over a thousand years ago – and you’ll probably both agree, that these text may not have been preserved in their original form.
Both the Bible and the Koran contains good stuff and bad stuff – but both churches have been handled and led by – PEOPLE!
As I pointed out in my first post here it’s fanaticism that’s the problem. There exists, today, both Islamic and Christian sects, who see themselves as “The hand of God” (or what have you), and claim they’re on a HOLY mission to (insert some medieval stuff here).
__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
-Voltaire
"That includes ruining Halloween because someone swallowed a Bible."
"I just thought you were a guy."
"... Most guys do."
If you're hinting that I have to disagree with you, ... I don't see it
I just wanna get rid of some prejudice there are and showing not everyone is a saint... so... someone saying that the Koran and the Bible have bad stuff in it... yeah, that's true and the leaders of those religions have done a lot of bad things too
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Aug 11th, 2004 02:58 PM
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