Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Maul killed Togorians. It's a nice accomplishment. But a Jedi is worth easily a dozen or so Togorians. They're just big cat people. Not to discredit the act, but it's not a benchmark. And neither are tuskan raiders. Anakin as a padawan massacred a whole camp full. They're not amazingly advanced or high thinking adversaries. Assassin droids ca be a pain, I agree. I'm not sure what manner of droids Maul eliminated, but I'm sure it was an accomplishment since it's on his resume.
Now, comparing Bandon to ESB Luke is a false analogy. Why? Well, ESB Luke had all the mastery and training of a first grader in boot camp. He's not even a padawan as far as I'm concerned. But back to your other points, you're saying that just because Bandon killed many Jedi and Sith, it doesn't make him better, while at the same time saying Maul killed a bunch of non-Jedi opponents and two masters and is thus better. Oh, and tacking on Sidious' rigorous training program.
Unless it says somewhere specifically that Maul has the neccessary training to hold up to a resume of Bandon's which includes full Jedi training and the deaths of many Jedi, and also being promoted within a year to the second most powerful Sith in a time of hundreds, I just can't see him being better.
Yes I'll admit Maul is cooler than Bandon, buts thats not the question. About Maul killing all those people, you're right, I had forgotten some of that, and about what you forgot, he killed off most of Black Sun and an entire cantina and Hutt throne room (think Jabba's throne room in RotJ). However, though this is impressive, lets examine what he would have had to for those opponents
-Master and apprentice: Maul would have had to out fight them with lightsabers and the force. Ok good, but Bandon would have had to beat hundreds of sith to become Malak's apprentice, he also killed dozens of jedi.
-Lorn Paven, police droids, nemodion and guards & bounty hunter: Maul would have had to either force choke them, deflect blaster bolts back at them, or cut them in half. Not to be condensending or any thing, but Luke in ANH could deflect blaster bolts, not well, and I'm not saying he could have done that, but he could still do it. I don't find that all that impressive, in fact, I find it interesting that it took Maul so long to kill Paven, he was a drunk, former jedi secretary who had amazing amount of luck, if Maul was able to defeat the ancient sith, he should not have had as much trouble as he did with Paven.
-The Mythical worm: I'm not sure here, but I think all he did was cut the ropes that held up the bridge that the creature was on. If that is infact what he did, not that impressive.
-The Cythons: remember they are described as terrors, but that is by people who live in the slums, they are not jedi or sith. And again, all he did was use the force to sense them dropping a net on him and he avioded it. Then he activcated his lightsaber, waved it around, killed a few people and kept hunting.
-Assassin droids: yes they were programmed with all the knowledge of 100 masters and Maul defeated them like they were nothing. But they were armed with weapons that could not block a lightsaber. If they tried to block, their weapon was cut in half, still impressive since he beat them in 30 seconds, but not incredible.
Thanks for the post though, and the compliment about me have class, I appreciate it.
By the way, nice pic Janus,
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by the way I realized that I wasn't very clear in my above post, I said that I didn't think that Luke could do that, by 'that' I meant kill Paven, the bounty hunter etc. What I meant by that he could is that he already could deflect blaster bolts, so it obviosouly isn't very hard and Maul doing that doesn't lead to any greater estimation of his skills.
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I know the togorians, sand people, etc. weren’t great accomplishments but he did fight more often than people think. Not only that, Maul had very quick reactions. In shadow hunter, a good bounty hunter just moved her hand toward her wrist rocket and Maul tore through a bunch of walls and was gone before she even fired it. Then a paralysis net which had caught a Jedi off guard was falling toward Maul and he dodged it. A Jedi master even blew up a speeder bike right next to him but Maul was so fast that he got out of the blast area in time. That’s why I can’t stand the way they killed off Maul in TPM, even I could have reacted faster than that.
As for Bandon’s resume of full Jedi training and less than a year of Sith training, that doesn’t even compare to Maul’s. Maul killed 3 Jedi with full training, two of them masters and defeated another. And didn’t Bandon quit his training prematurely? Once again, Maul wasn’t allowed to kill as many Jedi as Bandon or he would have and we don’t know how strong the Jedi Bandon killed were except normal Sith apprentices killed quite a few. Sure Bandon got picked over a hundred Sith probably, but I bet Revan ended up killing most of them so we know how weak those guys are. Even Uthar is nothing.
And about the Luke analogy, ESB Luke was (imo) much stronger than Bandon. He could compete with Vader. Obviously not defeat him, but could give him a hard time and Vader was very surprised at how powerful he was. In the ROTJ book, Luke was even able to deflect the Force Lightning for a few seconds.
Back on topic though, they are kind of similar so I think it really boils down to the amount of training they had in which Maul very easily outclassed him.
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Thanks to Janus for the great Sig.
ESB luke stronger then Bandon? ESB Luke could hardly pull of a good attack. And he wasn't able to compete with Vader, he was being smacked around for the fun of it. He didn't stand a chance...
And Maul may have fought a lot, but they aren't really impessive opponents. Bandon could have done that, all of that. He would have been able to defeat Maul easily would the two have fought. Bandon had a lot more experience than Maul, especially against Jedi. Maul faced Jedi that had seen almost no battle except for training. Bandon faced Jedi who had seen war their entire lives. He was obviously skilled and he faced more then just apprentices. You don't send apprentices to kill somebody as important as Bandon. Its foolish and you know they will die. Btw: he had more then a year of Sith training, he only had a year under Malak. But he had been training under the Sith since Revan had returned so thats two and a half years.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Before I begin on you, keep in mind that I've no problems against you at all. It's hard to tell, since I come out of the cage swingin', but yeah, just don't take any of this to heart. I hate it when people think I'm mean.
Maul's quick reactions... Are they something that only he could do? Or are they a reflection of basic Jedi/Sith training? Even advanced training? Or perhaps such quick reflexes are a creation of the author of the book, who was obviously very strongly in Maul's corner. Either way, his quickness is not an issue here. I'm certain Bandon could deal with and mostly likely counter such edges. It's not like it's a rare gift.
And Maul killing three Jedi with full training means jack, really. I could by mishap kill one, two, maybe even three Marines with little training. Still, that aside... How does it prove he was more capable than Bandon? Or is your opinion colored with disgust just because Bandon was seemingly such a pushover in KOTOR? And just because Revan ended up killing most of Bandon's competition doesn't mean much. Revan could kill Maul and all of his competition, too. While it's healthy and respectable to have an opinion, it does wonders for you if you want to share that opinion by giving something more... substantial.
Kills
Bandon: For the sake of argument, we'll say five to ten Jedi, and five to ten Sith. It was likely more, but since we're giving teh advantage to the opposing viewpoint, ten to twenty total. It is reasonable to assume that Bandon killed Mandalorians in combat, though since there isn't overwhelming proof that I am aware of right now, we'll nyx that factoid. We could tack on other miscellaneous people who doubtless got in his way, but we don't know for sure and it doesn't matter. Only the Jedi and Sith kills really count here.
Maul: Killed, what was it? Three Jedi? Modern age Jedi, most of which had never before seen a Sith,let alone fought and killed one. It is doubtful these Jedi had even seen war, but I could be mistaken. There are miscellaneous kills, such as assassin droids and bounty hunters, but they mean jack all. The Force is the core of this versus thread.
Training
Bandon: Training under at least one Jedi Master from the Order of the Sith Wars era. Training may or may not have been complete. In any case, Bandon was an exceptionally powerful duellist and went on to become Malak's number two over hundreds of other (and some possibly older) fallen Jedi and Sith. Spent about two years to say a year in Sith training. Doubtless fought many many Jedi at this time.
Maul: Picked up as a little horned baby from Iridonia. Spent many yearxs closeted away with creepy old Sidious, who was no weaponsmaster and certainly killed less Jedi than even Bandon. Has freelance experience doing odd jobs for the old coot.
Actually Bandon did not fight in the Mandelorian wars, he only left the Jedi when Revan returned as he was to young to follow Revan before...
Also only 20 kills? I know your keeping it low, but thats just extremely low. If thats all he killed then the Sith and Jedi were incredibly worthless and deserved to die, both of them... Anyways because Bandon joined the Sith at such a young age and still managed to become the apprentice only makes him more impressive.
Besides as some of you know when the Exile faced trial there were a lot of empty seats. According to Vrook, Kavar the Disciple and Kreia. Jedi Masters followed Revan to war, seeing as there is no real reason to assume they have died and as Disciple says one followed Malak till the end, I will just have to assume that Bandon was chosen as the apprentice over Jedi Masters...
Masters who had places on the Jedi Council... Could Maul do that? Beat at least three maybe up to five or six councillors? Didn't think so.
Before I start, no I don't take things personally on here, I respect both your opinions and Revan Darkstar's because you guys can carry an argument well. There isn't much more I haven't already said except Qui-Gon was Council level and I think the other master was too or was at least close. And I don't compare how easily Revan kills Bandon. No one can compete with Revan really. I will finish this in my next post because I can't right now.
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Thanks to Janus for the great Sig.
I know Qui Gon was council level, i am not saying that killing Qui was a small thing it wasn't. Maul is a great fighter. But I don't think he is Bandon, he didn't have the experience, he didn't fight as many Jedi and Sith and knows less about the two sides then Bandon does. Maul is good, but he just simply IMO can not compare with somebody that has killed Jedi and Sith for 2,5 years and has gained an incredible rank in just 1,5 years of being Sith. He is the apprentice of the Dark Lord.
Yes that's right Janus but the only thing we have seen is the website saying he killed many Jedi. And Maul is apprentice to the Dark Lord too so I'm not sure why you put that there especially since Sidious is widely considered to be stronger than Malak. Bandon did experience both sides while Maul did not, that's true. But you guys are comparing 20-30 years of your life 100% devoted to the Sith with a teacher like Sidious that foucuses his whole time on teaching him compared to roughly 20 years of Jedi training in an academy, about 2 years of Sith training in an academy, and less than a year of training from an actual Sith Lord.
Next, while we know Bandon killed many Jedi, we don't know how many or how strong they were. I like to compare them to the average Jedi we see in KOTOR 1 which were pathetic. Even the Exile can kill those Jedi masters without a lightsaber while barely trained, so the many Jedi thing doesn't do a whole lot for me except tell me that he is skilled with a lightsaber which we obviously know Maul is very good at. Once again, Aurra Sing, Atton, and HK-47 kill a lot of Jedi so quantity does not prevail over quality.
Next, about the number of Jedi he killed, it probably was not very high at all. Only 40 years after the Exar-Kun war, after the Mandalorian War, the Great Hunt, and the jedi Revan turned to his side there wouldn't be that many Jedi to fight, not to mention where would he fight them?
Now obviously we don't know nearly enough about Bandon to make this more of an even topic but this is comparing knowledge where Maul easily wins.
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Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Easily?
Where does this easily come from?
Easily winning is Revan backing ESB Luke into a corner and sabering him into chunks
Easily winning is Chewie football kicking a jawa across Mos Eisley.
Easily winning is being the only person up for office and being elected president.
While I will agree with you that we can determine more about Maul's actual training, it doesn't give him an easy win at all. Any Jedi or Sith worth his lightsaber should be able to give Maul a run for his money. Maul's not invincible. And Sidious is widely considered stronger than Malak, but there are two things about that I beg to challenge: one is that, as in this case, we do not know enough about either to make that assumption; the other is that Sidious is more popular and liked because of Episode III. And since seeing is believing, there are dozens of pics of Sidious whuppin' ass circulating around the internet, but not one of Malak using his saber in combat. Not one.
true Sidious is WAY more popular, and I'm not even close to saying Maul is invincible. But I don't think he gets nearly enough credit most of the time. And the easily is simply that Maul had more training and knowledge. Not that he could easily beat Bandon (even though I think he could). Maul has undeniably more training and knowledge than Bandon so that's why I think he would win. Plus we have actually seen him in combat with Jedi, not just heard about it.
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May 4th, 2005 12:03 AM
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