Welcome to page 2...more warm, fuzzy, brawling goodness to come...
Actually his most impressive feat was stalemating that telepath who gained the strength of those he controlled (from the same issue). Eventually he loses his charge (and the fight is, again, regrettably for Apollo, at night) but the guy had over half the world's population controlled (70% according to the Authority) and at one point punched Apollo around the world...literally. And Apollo stands up to him. That, much more than the skyscraper, would put Apollo in the Million+ ton category, even by safe estimates (multi-million ton category if we're looking at max potential). So yeah, Apollo's tough as hell and so is Majestic...trying to claim one is stronger than the other might just be fanciful guessing...but you definitely don't have the massive advantage you think you do. I'd stand by my claim that Apollo would be stronger, but neither of us can probably claim that definitively. But there (above) is my justification for the claim.
If I'm not mistaken, Majestic and Superman stalemate each other in their (brief) fight and Supes gets the only sure hit in on Majestic. If he was "Flash-like" that would never happen. Majestic is a good fighter, and I wasn't claiming Apollo was better...only that he has training too and could hold his own in the skill department. We'll both be getting our hits in on the other. Mine will be at least as strong, probably more, and I'll still be healing a lot faster due to my armor.
What makes you think it CAN? Loki's matter manipulation powers mean he has control over particles that small. He won't let anything through that easily.
The armor has withstood barrages from Superman (including Supes' vision-attack). Zod once broke Supes' jaw. The only reason Zod was killed in the comics was when he had his armor off (he then became weakened and crumpled against Supes when he tried to attack). It isn't indestructable, but it'll take a while to get through. And I'll remind you again that Apollo has sun-powered heat vision that has inoculated the moon. The Moon! I'm not going to stand and let you slice my armor with your laser vision...I'll be flying, counter-attacking, and hitting you with my own vision-attack. And anything that hits you will be hitting you directly. With me, it's going through shields and armor first. Add that to my healing factor and you'll be hurting a lot sooner than I will.
And I mentioned the fight that you cited and said that there wasn't any sun. Had there been, Apollo would have only been temporarily weakened and could've resumed the fight shortly thereafter. No Cap clone would've been beating him then. In this fight, I'll be more charged to begin with, will have my power source against me, and your plan still assumes that you'll be rid of my armor in the first seconds of combat, which is completely ridiculous. If you could get rid of my shields, armor, and catch me that quick, sure..you'd have an easy win. But it will take a while, and as previously stated, we'll both be getting our hits in and Majestic will be hurting before long.
Bedtime...but my case should be pretty well summarized above me here.
One last thing...kind of a summary of everything I've said up to this point with a few added things...
Loki once put his head back on after it was chopped off and suffered no ill affects, and I'm healing fast because of my suit. Khell's guy will have to completely destroy me to take me out, and in the meantime I'll be getting my own hits in, both magical and physical, that will do more to Majestic than his hits will do to me. Blackstrom is going through magical shields, Kryptonian armor, and Apollo's charged body. Me? I'll just be hitting Majestic. My suit has charged Apollo to at least Majestic level (most likely higher..see above for examples) and it isn't indestructable, but with me flying around, fighting, phasing, etc. I'll be lots harder to take down than Khell seems to think. And for his "drain my solar charge" strategy to work, he has to get past my shields and armor. I have strength to match, heat-vision to match, and magic to make myself more elusive and add some extra firepower. The battlefield is interesting, but probably conveys no special advantage to either one of us. Nuf with this...I'm tired...good fight so far Khell.
-DM
P.S. But if "effect precedes cause" in the Reverse Dimension, since we're fighting to the death, wouldn't one of us (whoever is the loser) just be dead as soon as the fight starts?? Kinda funny to think about, but it doesn't change my strategy.
Standing up to someone does not count as being on anywhere close to equal footing with them. It just means it took a few moments before Apollo got demolished by that guy. And, his charge doesn't deplete as rapidly as you seem to think it does. A good solar charge can keep Apollo in good fighting strength for days. It's only when he's spent an extended period of time out of direct sunlight that he wears down his solar charge.
You have your justification for your claims of strength and I have mine. I guess we could just assume they are about even in plain physical strength.
First of all, that was energy Supes(who pulled of some other really impressive strength feats during his run from what I hear), and the very first punch in the fight is landed by Supes because he started it. After that, they go off the page, though when we see them again, neither looks the worse for wear. He took one punch from a guy of comparable speed, Apollo does not have comparable speed.
Shapeshifting does not equal matter manipulation. And read your bio for Loki, it specificalyl says it's EXTERNAL objects that he can transmute and change. There goes your internal matter manipulation defense.
Withstanding physical blows is not the same as withstanding matter manipulation on a subatomic scale. And heat vision is not the same as laser vision. Majestic has cut open Kryptonian armor before and can do it again with ease. I have two distinct methods of depriving you of one of your best advantages.
You don't need to remind me, I know. But Majestic has taken huge blasts of energy beofre that have failed to crack his suit, which is actually body armor itself. And that assumes you'll get past my own shield. You know, the one that stands up to MX Peacekeeper missiles?
What's your point? We're in another dimension, does it even have a sun? And if so, Apollo was keyed to Earth's sun, there's no evidence he can draw power from another star.
Uou'll be more charged, but I'll have more voltage to bring to bear. Your power source will only be with you for as long as it takes for me to strip you of it. I don't NEED to remove it that soon to win, but I will because there's no point in dragging out a fight like this. It won't take a while to knock down your shields and armor. I am far above any feat of strength Thor by himself can match, and have two ways of taking your armor out in moments. It's just downhill from there.
Yes, his asgardian/giant body. Not Apollo's modified human body. And you aren't exactly Wolverine here, you are severely overstating his healing powers. And you WON'T be getting very many hits in, because I'm just as strong as you, faster than you, and the more experienced fighter.
Shields that even Thor would bring down, and Kryptonian armor that gets sliced through with one blast of laser vision. You on the other hand will be TRYING desperately to hit Majestic who is wearing his own armored suit, and surrounded by one of Black Bolt's force fields and moving much faster than you.
Your charge is soon to be depleted with one good jolt from Black Bolt's electron powers. Flying is useless, because I am faster. Teleporting does no good, I'll just turn around and have a fist ready to meet you just as you rematerialize, phasing is no good for the reasons I've mentioned above.
I can attack each and every one of your strengths, take you apart piece by piece, all the while doing it at speeds you can't match.
K, originally Apollo couldn't even stand up to this guy or begin to hurt him. In their fight, the telepath is clearly hurting, Apollo takes a punch from him (a punch that would have originally sent him around the planet) and is only mildly troubled by it, and stands up to him for quite a while. I'm not saying Apollo was stronger or better, but he was close. Even if he's half of the telepath's strength, he's still in the Million+ Ton category (I'm assuming the average person the telepath controls can press around 100 pounds...I could provide my exact calculations if need be), and he's probably a lot closer to him than that. So my justification for saying Apollo is stronger, in my mind, stands up pretty well to criticism.
And no, my charge doesn't deplete super-rapidly...thanks for making that point. That should be taken into account this whole fight. I have a massive charge that doesn't deplete rapidly...thanks for noticing that Khell.
Actually, the very definition of shape-shifting is internal matter manipulation, so my argument stands in full force.
Matter manipulation...dealt with above. And no, laser vision isn't the same as heat vision...but they both do a helluva lot of damage. You'll be hurting from mine too...and with Apollo's "spread" effect with his heat-vision (from the moon incident) one could easily surmise that I'll be able to hit you with mine a lot more easily than vice-versa.
I said at the beginning Majestic's a beast...but I'm half tempted to bring leonidas in here to discuss Thor's many feats of unbelievable strength (or Superman/Apollo/etc. for that matter). Majestic might be slightly better than your average Supes clone, but you're giving him way too much credit. Besides, Thor's the pinnacle of all that is cool *coughvoteformescoobcough*.
1. Loki's powers, including replacing a lopped off head without incident, derive from his magical powers and have nothing to do with what body he is in. He'd be able to it just as easily with Apollo's body. And this very feat speaks to my earlier argument of magical internal matter control...this is just more fuel for the argument.
2. Healing factor. Let's take Volume 2, Issue 12. Jenny Fractal has punched a hole in Apollo's chest and is holding his heart in her hand. He manages to get away but is severely injured. They take him away and teleport him to where the rest of the group is...the Engineer sets up an artificial sunlight source to help him heal. Before the end of the page, no more than a minute or so (The Authority is in a hurry after all...the multiverse is imploding in on itself) Apollo is up and talking. I don't think I'm overestimating my healing-rate at all. With the uber-charge I'll have from being in the suit so long, if anything I'm underestimating it.
3. Just as strong?...debatable. I'd say no, but probably about even. Faster?...in flight sure, in fighting slightly. But we'll both get our hits in. More experienced fighter?...sure, but Apollo has oodles of experience too, and again I think this is a moot point.
Again with the Thor bashing? Though Thor might have stopped Loki's plans plenty of times, Loki's shields have withstood Mjolnir blasts plenty of times. And between a good combination of flying, fighting, phasing, etc. I'll be dishing it out as much as taking punishment...and it'll still take you much longer than you think to get through my layers of shielding and actually start hurting me. In the meantime, Majestic will be toast.
Saying he's close doesn't actually make it true. Until the Doctor broke his link to the Earth's population, Apollo was barely an annoyance. You seem to be forgetting that Majestic is increasing his strength as well, when his base strength is already near or equal to your suped up Apollo's.
It doesn't deplete rapidly when he's fighting normally. When he expells large amount of stored energy or, say, gets hit by lightning, his charge dwindles a lot quicker.
Yes, in a sense it is matter manipulation, but not on the subatomic level. Read the bio, he only shapeshifts into living things, which implies a similarity in materials between all his forms. He's changing fromt he flesh of a god/giant to the flesh of a bird or bear or whatever, not flesh to steel or flesh to water. At best, he's manipulating on a molecular scale, which gives him no control over particles like electrons.
You dealt with Loki's matter manipulation, not mine. Shapeshifting is a bad idea, because his armor is made to fit one size, and it does nothing to stop me from turning your armor to dust.
And, just because you hit me doesn't mean it will do any damage. An omni-directional blast is going to be much weaker than two focused beams, and this is hitting a near-invulnerable guy who has a force field up and is wearing a suit that has survived a nuclear explosion intact.
I'm not saying Majestic by himself is far above Thor. I'm saying Majestic, with his strength amped several times it's normal level, is far above Thor. I'd say the same thing about Thor in relation to Majestic if he was the base for my amalgam instead. Majestros + electron and kinetic strength increases > regular strength Thor.
If it was just a question of magical power, every top tier magic user in in the MU could do the same. I don't think any sane person is going to be claiming Strange could have his head cut off, pick it up, and put it back on (though I'm sure longpig would love it if that were the case). A magic user with a human body gets his head cut off, he loses the ability to use magic anymore.
Yeah, you neglect to mention Engineer saying "The Doctor worked his magic on him, a few minutes later and we'd have lost him." So wow, all it took was effort from a guy who sinks continents by thinking about it and some sunlight. Impresive.
Well of course you'd say no they aren't even in strength, it'd be pretty dumb for you not to. Still, deny it all you want, your guy does not outmatch Blackstrom in strength. In flight faster, in fighting FAR faster. You may get a hit in, but by the time you do, I will have had tim to knock down your shield and go to work on your armor. Again, of course you think it's a moot point. If it wasn't, you'd be that much more screwed. Unfortunately, it isn't moot and you are screwed.
It's not Thor bashing, it's common sense. What's better, ten good hits from Thor, or two hits from someone who is amped up to ten times Thor's strength? Personally, I'm going with the second option. The flying, phasing, etc. I've already dealt with; speed and all that.
You still seem to be ignoring the fact that the only weapons you even have a chance of hitting me with are your omni-directional heat vision and physical blows. Everything else, I'm just too fast for by far. Sun-derived heat vision is never going to make it through my shields, since BB has used his electron powers to cancel out a massively charged solar flare created by Graviton, and it is going to be quite some time before you are lucky enough to lay a hand on me.
Last edited by Khellendros on Jun 19th, 2005 at 06:16 PM
Apollo kicks him in the stomach, the guy screams "Waroooargh!" or something similar. Apollo lands a few other blows like this. He takes a punch (that originally sent him around the planet) and keeps fighting. I'm not 'saying' he's close. I'm showing you that he is.
Similar to what you said I was doing, you're 'saying' Loki has no control over subatmoic particles. The fact that he can maek dragons from clouds, or change his shape, or put his head back on after it's chopped off...all speak to matter control. I'm not saying that I'll be shapeshifting...I'm merely using that power to demonstrate that manipulation of anything within me will be blocked or negated. And if your electron messing can mess with magical manipulation, which works with an entirely different set of rules, I'd be impressed. We don't have a precedent for it, so I'd believe that it wouldn't happen. As always, you'll have to get to my body first before this happens, though we both know how the other feels about that.
Not going to shapeshift...like I said, I only used that power to demonstrate that I'd deny your attempts to manipulate matter within me. Armor to dust?...I won't become repetitive. My other posts deal with this in detail.
Nice...now we're claiming that class Million punches will be shrugged off. Majestic's body...BB's shields...whatever else you can muster...none of that will make much difference. You're still going to feel it big time.
My strength boost is automatic...I don't have to think about it for it to happen. Yours requires concentration. How much time will Majestic be able to spend using someone else's powers (powers that, even with 2 hours, he's nowhere near comfortable with...let alone being able to master them) to boost his strength, especially when you're having to deal with me?? He won't be able to use it nearly as much as you'd have us believe. And after a few hits, with his concentration waning, I'd call into question whether the strength boost would be there at all.
??? Loki has done this (put his head back on). His power is solely magical and has nothing whatsoever to do with what body he is in. He's transferred himself to Odin's body before and had the exact same powers as in Loki's body. Strange couldn't do it, because that isn't part of his magical ability...but I don't see why Loki couldn't do something like this in Apollo's body. Besides, this is just to make a further case for A. my healing and B. my matter manipulation. I honestly don't think the fight would get so far I'd have to put my head back on. But it's there if I need it.
One last thing. Apollo has charged himself in more than our sun. The Authority resides in a dimension-hopping ship, and Apollo has gone sun-bathing in other solar systems (I can provide issues if need be). There's no doubt that the suit would help him...nowhere ever has a specific sun or sun-type been mentioned. All sun radiation helps him, thus the suit would do wonders for Apollo.
-DM
P.S. Honestly, I wasn't trying to be sneaky...I just forgot about the Doctor's intervention with that healing incident. Of course, I'm also cursing my bad luck (Khell's about the only person in the tourney who would've noticed that) but Apollo still heals faster than normal...it would definitely be an asset.
Actually, I'm not JUST saying it, I'm going by the link YOU provided. Here, lemme quote part of it.
That makes it pretty clear that his control over objects other than his body is true matter manipulation, while what he does with his body is simple shapeshifting.
Yes, you're SAYING it, but you're wrong. His internal ability extends only to changing his living flesh from one shape to another, it doesn't extend to controlling the flow of electrons within his body.
The kind of shapeshiftin you have extends, at MOST, to the molecular level, it does not allow you to stop me from, say, halting all brain activity.
The one or two you manage to land? Yes. They may hurt, but they aren't going to put me out of commission.
BB's strength boost takes just enough time to supercharge his body with electron energy, so maybe a split second. Maelstrom's kinetic draining is automatic, he just has to decide how much he wants to be drawing in. Kinda like a volume knob, just turn it up and leave it be. Both of these actions can be done in the first second of the fight, or during prep.
BB was using his matter manipulation powers to create things out of thin air when he was an infant. I'm thinking someone who is a bona fide genius like Majestic can muddle through in a couple hours. Besides, BB couldn't even SEE the electrons he was manipulating, Majestros can.
...So, he transferred his power into the body of ANOTHER, more powerful God, and then just happened to be able to use the same powers int eh same way? Interesting. See, the thing is, that doesn't prove much. The body of a God and a Skyfather are going to be fairly similar, the body of a vastly enhanced human is going to be completely foreign. There's no guarantee he'll be able to use any powers related to his shapeshifting on this new body.
Oh, and you're right. When I've depleted your solar charge and I'm blowing you apart with my scream, you won't have to worry about reattaching your head.
Yeah, I'm interested in learning about a sun he charged up from that didn't belong Earth or one of it's parallel dimension versions, which would make them basically the same sun.
Hey, it just sounded too fishy. I had to go rummage through my collection to take a peek.
Oh my god you need a microscope to read all this stuff. A lot of into. This match is to close to call yet imo. I'll wait for a few more posts before I vote.
Yeah, he has control over external matter. And yes, he can shape-shift. The bio does indeed have the word 'external' but never says "only external". If it did, shape-shifting, head-putting-back-on, and similar feats would be ridiculous and discontinuous with his powers. The very nature of those acts blatently shows that Loki does indeed have internal matter control. Outside sources of energy might be used just to strike at me, but nothing internal (i.e. BB's brain-scrambling tactic) would work at all.
Wow...throwing me a bone for a change. Actually admitting they'd hurt if I landed them. And I would. Plenty of them. Maybe you'd land a few more than me, but Apollo is at least comparable in speed and skill. Not better, but close enough to let my other assets, like strength, my extensive shielding, healing, phasing, etc. give me the advantage.
I'm not denying any of this. But once your guy gets rattled (with the aforementioned punches/magical bolts/etc) that shielding and strength boost will come down. It requires a concentration of BB's power to do that...concentration you won't be able to afford when you're brawling for your life with General Kinky.
The basis of this entire tournament is that we get the powers of each character involved unless the power is directly linked with their body...in which case we need the body of that person to use the power. Loki's powers...all of them...have nothing to do with the body he is in, and everything to do with his inherent magical ability. Everything he can do normally (including the head bit, though this is just an example) he can do as part of this amalgam. End of story.
Lovely...might be one of the issues I was citing earlier...lemme find it...Volume 2, Issue 8. Apollo gets his ass whupped by John Clay (the telepath I mentioned earlier) and uses a Carrier door to go to a "Solar system powered by twin suns" to soak up more energy than usual to fight Clay. It's in the "Alternate 121" dimension...which doesn't mean alternate earth, just alternate dimension. And nowhere in any issue of Authority have I seen a specific sun or sun-radiation-type cited as being the only kind that powers Apollo. He's the "Sun King"...any sun will do (or sun-radiation suit as the case may be). If we're getting technical here, Zod's powers include becoming stronger with red-sun radiation (which is what the suit emits) and I have Zod's powers (which mostly just overlap with Apollo's) so I could apply his red-radiation absorbancy to Apollo...but I don't need to. It'll work anyway with Apollo.
...
I still believe I'm stronger and have provided credible examples to justify it. Majestic still has to control foreign powers to boost his strength and give him any sort of shielding, and if he becomes unable to concentrate on them they're lost. I may not be Hulk or even Wolverine, but I'll be healing faster than Majestic, and have magical shields and my armor to get through first. Loki has control over himself to the extent that any internal intrusion will be negated or denied, and we'd both get ample hits in during a straight-up brawl. Eventually, my guy would win out.
I'll replay to Digi later, but I'll get to this right now. Here are some of Majestic's speed (and strength while flying) and other various feats.
From the first issue of his first solo series:
- He moves the moon wearing special gauntlets designed by himself to keep it from falling apart. while Nixon steps down as a president as a distraction. Satelittes and machines he has built stabilize the Earth, keep the tides going as normal etc.
- Majestic moves Mercury towards Jupiter and leaves it as a new moon there.
- Majestic uses his laser vision to change the chemical compistion of the planet of Jupiter with one blast.
- Using a self-built spaceship, Majestic goes to a neighboring star system to move *several* moons at once, moves them to Mars and then blasts them with his laser vision to create rings around Mars.
- Catches a comet and adds it as another planet to the solar system (flying over there and back under his own power, not in a spaceship)
- He moves the Earth into an orbit around Jupiter.
-At the end of the first issue of his comic, Majestic flies outside the Milky Way galaxy -- under his own power -- and then turns around and flies back home. And he's back in less than a year. Which puts him somewhere around a few thousand times faster than light.
Majestic #7: Majestic fights a villain who tries to spray a city with temporal particles to send it back to the Stone Age. Majestic breaths in all the particles and flies away into outer space.
The villain rants:"I spent my life savings on this prototype. Now it's....."
In outer space, he passes Mars and Jupiter, but the dust starts to hurt him. He's then contacted by the Universals, a race of god-like entities who talk to him in his mind in an Alice in Wonderland kind of mindscape. They tell him of his destiny and Majestic wakes up, Saturn in the background.
He gets up and flies back to Earth.
On Earth the villain rants: "... life savings on this prototype. Now it's just a worthless pile of junk! This is not chaos-charisma in action! This is anti-sophistication!"
At that point Majestic flies in at high speed, grabs the villain and locks him in a police car.
So unless the villain was repeating those two sentences over and over again, we have Earth to Saturn and back within a sentence.
Those are flight speed feats. As for movement/fighting speed feats, the two best are the infamous one in which he researches a brand new technology and builds a working prototype (after havng to rebuild it once) in nanoseconds. Then, there is his latest issue, in which he senses someone teleporting in behind him and, with only a nanosecond to react, spins around and punches the guy before his body is fully formed.
I'm almost positive Apollo can't match my planet moving/mountain lifting and speed feats.
Last edited by Khellendros on Jun 20th, 2005 at 03:50 AM
Internal matter control, not energy. You don't seem tob e grasping the difference. The shapeshifting and head reattachment would opnly require molecular control. He shows no evidence of controlling subatomic particles INTERNALLY.
Yeah well, I have you so outmatched in speed, I figured it would be nice to at least give you that much. IF you can land a hit, sure, it'll hurt.
Well, you're either denying it or not understanding it. Black Bolt's strength increases have naver been shown to decrease over time, unlike Apollo's solar charge. And he has taken WAY more punishment than you will be dishing out. Once he increases his strength, that's it, it's done, no more effort needed. Same with Maelstroms powers. They are automatic, no matter how much concentration he can spare.
Yes, they get the power, but not necessarily the ability to use it. Loki has spent all his time using his shapeshifting abilities in a body that greatly differs internally from a NORMAL human's, much less Apollo, who has an untold number of changes made internally. His shapeshifting power has EVERYTHING to do with the body he is in. He has to ahve some idea of it's structure before he can go changing it to something else.
Okay, cool, that doesn't mean this dimension we're in has a sun.
You are allowed to believe that if you want, you're just wrong in this case. I am at least as strong, if not stronger. Majestic has to control foreign powers a baby was able to master. Meanwhile, Majestic is a friggin genius with two hours to learn. And, neither his shields nor his strength need concentration to maintain. Once he creates them, they stay that way until he wishes different.
I have strong shields and armor on top of being invulnerable and augmenting my durability with absorbed kinetic energy. Once you take away Apollo's charge, he can take a beating like any normal human. I have speed that far outstrips yours, and that too has been increased by my other powers. I have millenia of combat experience, when you have, at most, a decade. I have laser vision guaranteed to remove our armor, a way of depleting your solar charge almost instantly, and a voice that will shatter your body to finish the fight.
I'm having a hard time believing Loki could reattach his head, while in a human's body.
Part of having a drawrf giant's body, is that power. Loki's power comes internally from a source within a magical body, here, he has no magic body.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm having a hard time buying it.
Just like you have all of Strange's power in someone's else's body, Loki's power transfers here. It's a pre-condition of this tournament that we get the person's powers unless directly linked to the body...Loki's powers aren't directly linked to his body, therefore I have access to all of them.
A couple quick things (I'll respond to Khell's most recent post later)
1. I have Zod's powers too...which includes laser vision, and speed capable of battling Superman, who is presumably slightly faster in a fight than Apollo. Nix those from Khell's already small list of advantages.
2. I don't think I've made a big enough deal about my ability to phase. When used properly, I can become intangible when needed, then re-assemble to punch Majestic...making me even more elusive than otherwise. Loki can do this with a thought.
3. The head re-attachment isn't even terribly important...it was just an example that Khell and I got hung up on. I have Loki's powers so it shouldn't be a problem though.
4. Apollo has fought a "speedster" (of unknown speed, but with reflexes and speed surpassing normal beings). Apollo manages to grab him (and the guy looks stunned) and heat-vision him (not 'spread'...just straight-line). Admittedly, the speedster guy gets more hits in on Apollo than vice-versa, and Midnighter ends up taking him out, but Apollo manage to harm him and is fast enough to do this. All of this happens shortly after the Earth Inferno crisis in a stand-alone issue (forget the number...Volume 1, somewhere around 18). Apollo's up there in speed...I'd get plenty of hits in.
KMC Community Forums
Jun 19th, 2005 01:49 AM
