Far from a master duellist? He was in the top 10 of the order, even the top 5. All the battles we saw him fight was very emotional for him, he couldent keep his head cool because to many feelings were involved. Everytime no feelings are in the battle Anakin is awefully good, he beated Assaj Ventress twice, as a padawan and as a knight while most masters (that were also in the top 10) lost those battles. He also defeated Cin Drallig and two other jedi at the same time.
Vader was crippled, as Traya said, he couldent lift his lightsaber over his head because the suit was so heavy. Try putting on alot of weights on your hands and feet, over your whole body, then try to fight someone who is in the top 5 duellists in the world at the same time your breathing through a straw, not that easy huh.
You have no proof that Vader was worse then ROTS Anakin? In the movie his worse, according to GL hes worse, he lost potential and became alot slower.
Also, in one of the EU books, when Vader doesent agree with the Emperor, he takes a grasp around Vaders breathing machine and prevents him from breathing, Anakin could probably do the same.
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You again? Why don't you just revive the Vader/Anakin thread immediately?
And yes, he was still far from a true master duellist in ROTS because of his mentality and experience. Sure he was great for his age but it takes a whole lot longer to reach the level of a jedi master such as Dooku or Yoda.
When finally arrived at the point of the ANH hope time, he indeed finished his training under one of the best tutors there is and he perfected his way of duelling.
And the crippled thing is exagurated just to fit your accommodation. You're acting as if the technology is earth based while it indeed allowed him to move around like any man as seen in the OT. He isn't showing any signs at all that he could barely hold up his arm.
Your overlooking basic logic because you still want to win this little arguement.
Sorry, but the measily amount of arguments to Vader still being weaker after decades of experience and perfecting skills are not impressive.
As for the choking part.. I'll give you that.
But I'm more concerned about the simple assumption of OT Vader being weak.
You were the one that started the argument so why don't you do it yourself.
We have both proof and quotes from GL saying he is weaker than ROTS Anakin, why do you go against the god of SW, because you want Vader to be better?
I'm not saying Vader is weak, hell no. But I don't think he can match ROTS Anakin that's all.
The suit Vader wears is described as heavy, plus that he doesent have as good control over his hands and legs as he did before, neither can they move as fast.
K let's quit this and go back on topic.
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The thing is that you budded in to the same discussion I had with you already somewhere else, I love it though how you can begin to discuss me and quickly say we should get back on topic. You have to at least give me a chance of defending myself.
Your so called proof wich allowed you to create this opinion of yours is cute but not very explaining and I can just as easily take those comments another way like that he of course lost an extreme amount of power and needed revalidation what is logical but it isn't logical to me that Vader would be worse after completing training now under Sidious and perfecting his skills bringing him from apprentice to master duelist.
Point is that I don't want to proof you that he is better after all that experience and maturing but that it is the most logical idea. And the arguments for your side aren't really proving mine wrong.
Overlord, you do not need to comment or mock everything I say in my post, just defend yourself right away.
You still havent really answered all of my questions either.
You seem to belive that because Vader has trained longer he is better, but you seem to forget all the things that makes him weaker.
He might be more skilled with the lightsaber, but he is not quick enough to move. His mechanical limbs makes it harder for him to move and his breathing makes it harder for him to regain his stamina.
Think about it, if Vader can barley lift his hands above his head, how can he then deflect strikes that can land over his head, then at his feet, then at his waist. I think Vader is outmatched by opponents because of their speed and agility and his lack of it. He is weaker in the force but more coolheaded than his younger self, but that cannot help him in every case. Also note that Anakin is almost always frustrated in the battles we see him battle in the films. He is not a big dumbass that makes mistakes all the time in a battle, he is an awesome warrior and swordsman.
So it's basically the lack of speed that I put him under ROTS Anakin.
And so were on again lol.
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Last edited by kamikz on Dec 23rd, 2005 at 07:02 PM
haha Vader cant raise his hands above his head?? then plz tell me who threw palpatine in the reactor at the and of ROTJ? yes it was Vader.
And where were his hands?? above his head, and the other was cut off. And his speed may have decreased, but remember that's not everything what matters in a battle.
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Last edited by Smoker Stevens on Dec 23rd, 2005 at 07:23 PM
Well, speed isn't everything and Vader may seem like it but the technology provided was indeed sufficient to fight fluently as seen in the OT. So only the fact that ROTS Vader seemed faster is the pillar holding your argument.
I don't like to repeat this argument but speed is the main feature shown in Ataru and it overcomes a lot of opponents but it wasn't the most effective way of fighting as shown with Qui-Gon who was beaten by Maul although perfecting Ataru.
Yoda also displayed why it wasn't a great fighting style as it tired him too fast and wasn't great with Dooku stalling him with Makashi.
Out of these reasons, I assume that Vaders perfected style was mainly effective and power based and didn't need all this show to be effective.
Also the SW database claims that he hunted down the last jedi. Not that I'm claiming that these remaining jedi would be as good as ROTS Vader but apperantly Vaders ultimate way of fighting was indeed effective against other ways of dueling.
And that is why I think it is the most logical to say that Vader indeed got better after the decades of experience and training.
It also says that Vader singelhandedly defeated the jedi order (WTF).
His troopers probably did most of the work, he was with them though. I don't belive he took on all the jedi in duels.
Well there is a difference between fast versus average and fast versus slow-motion (lol). Maul and Dooku were both very fast, Vader was not as we see in the movie.
I never said he couldent lift his hands above his head, just that it was barley and probably a slow progress. In the end, when Luke was getting fried, he did it to save Luke and used all the strenght left in him. When someone you love is in danger or need help you often get stronger.
Though I belive he was equal or stronger than ROTS Anakin in force powers. He had more traning to perfect them, even though his potential was ultimatley lower and he got a little bit weaker.
I belive that the only people in the film that is able to beat Vader is some of the main characters, Obi, Annie, Yoda, Dooku, Mace, Sidious. To say he is weak is totally wrong, that I agree.
Thank you for appreciating what I said and answere right away.
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__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Dec 23rd, 2005 02:34 PM
