Registered: Nov 2005
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Since when did Sidious beat Yoda in a force battle? And do you have any evidence to show that DOoku beat Mace before he developed Vaapad because I believe he beat him when they were young.
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Facts, the Anti Fanboy solution
I say the Jedi. Yoda'd beat Sidious 5/10 times but Mace'd beat Dooku 6/10 times, IMO, which gives the Jedi a slight edge. I say the Jedi win this 55/100 times.
Anakin beat Dooku so Mace could probably do it. Yoda states that those two are even, in Dark Rendezvous so either way that would be a hell of a battle. In ROTS Sidious beat Yoda but Yoda's probably slightly better than Sidious is at dueling.
Depends. Dooku vs Mace would be a good match, and Sidious vs Mace would turn out with Mace.
You say evidence points towards Sidious not going all out. Could you provide this evidence? If anything, Mace wasn't going all out. He was trying to disarm him the entire time until the end. Mace > Sidious in dueling. Sidious was so overpowered by Yoda in dueling that he quickly relied on Sith Lightning. Sidious only realized Mace was the better duelist at the end of the fight, when he gets disarmed. If Dooku is against Yoda, Yoda wins after a bit, so the Jedi would win this. If it's Yoda vs Sidious, Mace vs Dooku, then that would be a bit more difficult to decide.
There is alot of things to hint Palpatine was faking.
- Palpatine can sense Anakin across the galaxy. No doubt he can sense him across the street. No doubt he can sense him coming. A golden opportunity for the future Emperor.
- Palpatine is disarmed at the exact moment Anakin enters the room.
- Anakin's "thoughts" before the fight. They lead me believe that Palpatine is talking to Anakin telepathically, because Palpatine never outright states those exact words.
- Palpatine needs Anakin to commit an act of evil to secure his transition to the Dark side. Disarming Mace fit in nicely. Had Anakin walked in with 4 Jedi corpses on the ground, he wouldn't be emotionally trialed and would not have fell to the Dark Side.
- Palpatine blasting Mace out the window, smiling, after "I'm too weak!". Then getting up as if nothing had happened.
- Palpatine moves oddly slow in that duel. Compare how he fights with Yoda to how he fights with Mace. He fights far faster in the former.
- Palpatine was Dooku's master and beat Yoda. He should have been able to beat Mace as well.
And Tarvos, remember that Jedi are not trained to kill their opponents, but to disarm them.
But apparently, GL says otherwise though he's never been crystal clear on the situation. GL's been mentally unwell as of late
Last edited by Generic Hero on Apr 23rd, 2006 at 07:08 PM
He sure didn't sense Vader throwing him down a reactor core. His futuresight obviously isn't infallible, I doubt he'd place his own life for it.
I actually seem to recall Mace kicking it out of his hand earlier, he is already on all fours against the corner of his big window when Anakin walks in.
Perhaps, or perhaps not. You'd need better support that Palpatine sent him the message in the first place.
This is irrelevant. He could have him do the deed whether or not he truly lost to Mace. In fact, it seems more likely that he really did lose to Mace, and then turned that bad situation into a more favorable one.
See above. Palpatine's post-battle antics have no relevance on whether or not he really won the fight. He could fake after Anakin walks into the room.
By this logic, because Mace moved slow, Obi-Wan is better than him. The choreography between Yoda and Mace will obviously be different, simply because of two entirely different fighting styles. Mace is much more methodical than Yoda.
Not necessarily, to be honest, it was never clarified in canon that Mace's saber skills were inferior to Yoda. And besides, that much is irrelevant. Saber fighting, like any other versus, is about matchups, it's entirely possible Mace matches up well against Sidious.
He sure didn't sense Vader throwing him down a reactor core. His futuresight obviously isn't infallible, I doubt he'd place his own life for it.
I was mainly referring to location instead of intention. Not really his precognition, but his ability to sense Anakin's location. Vader was standing right next to him and made a suddent move...
I actually seem to recall Mace kicking it out of his hand earlier, he is already on all fours against the corner of his big window when Anakin walks in.
Ah, you're correct. I was 5 seconds off. Regardless, the timing sure as hell seems fishy.
This is irrelevant. He could have him do the deed whether or not he truly lost to Mace. In fact, it seems more likely that he really did lose to Mace, and then turned that bad situation into a more favorable one.
I wouldn't say that at all. Anakin attacked Mace because Padme was in direct jeopardy. In a saber duel the outcome is unclear and Anakin may not have been fearing for Palpatine's (Padme's) life. Especially since a few frames earlier he was not confident in Mace's ability to defeat the Chancelor. By having a sabre pointed at the old man's throat, Anakin is put in a desperate situation where Padme will die unless he does something. This causes him a "spur of the moment" type thing and bang! Palpy has a new apprentice.
Had Mace died before Anakin arrived, Anakin would not have been put in this situation, and would not have fallen to the dark side yet.
Not necessarily, to be honest, it was never clarified in canon that Mace's saber skills were inferior to Yoda. And besides, that much is irrelevant. Saber fighting, like any other versus, is about matchups, it's entirely possible Mace matches up well against Sidious.
I remember Mace admitting inferiority to Yoda in Dark Rendezvous, and to Dooku in Shatterpoint. Although the former may have only been him being nice.
By this logic, because Mace moved slow, Obi-Wan is better than him. The choreography between Yoda and Mace will obviously be different, simply because of two entirely different fighting styles. Mace is much more methodical than Yoda.
Maybe... but Mace seems to be one for precision and strength over speed. We know Palpatine is deadly precise as well (killing 3 Council Members in 10 seconds)... It just feels slow in that fight.
It also seems odd how he can lose to Mace after destroying three other members in seconds. There must have been some huge power gaps in the Council. Just seems odd.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
One thing I'd like to point out- in ROTJ, Vader spends two minutes looking back and forth, over at Sidious, then leans back... and then leans forward and has time to grab the guy with one arm and a stump before Sidious gets the hint?
Registered: Nov 2005
Location: Seminole Country, FL
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Right but if he had the gift of foresight that you so claim in ROTS, he would have had no problem sensing it. In reality, Palpatine didn't fake the fight, the only thing he did was play the victim when his initial lightning strike didn't work.
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Registered: Feb 2005
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I don't get how Palpatine is so "in tune" with Anakin that he can feel his pain across the galaxy (Which, Yoda could do too), but he couldn't sense the conflicting heart right beside him, even after Luke had made a very loud and echoing comment about it early in the fight. While it would be nice to think that Palpatine was so hardass that he could fight Mace Windu and listen to his force senses at the same time, it appears he can't even use lightning without getting overly distracted. How does this prove your point?
I don't get how Palpatine is so "in tune" with Anakin that he can feel his pain across the galaxy (Which, Yoda could do too), but he couldn't sense the conflicting heart right beside him, even after Luke had made a very loud and echoing comment about it early in the fight.
Perhaps, but perhaps he can only sense physical pain? Physical movement... Or perhaps he did feel the confliction in Vader's heart, but was so overconfident and careless that he'd rather torture Luke than do anything about it. Maybe he didn't think Vader would have the balls to do anything, cuz the lightning would destroy him too.
While it would be nice to think that Palpatine was so hardass that he could fight Mace Windu and listen to his force senses at the same time, it appears he can't even use lightning without getting overly distracted. How does this prove your point?
He managed to do it while fighting Yoda. Again, sensing emotions =/= sensing location.
Apr 23rd, 2006 04:23 PM
