Ive been meaning to do this for some time now. A thread dedicated to comparing the Marvel Thor to the real thor from Norse lore.
Thor's intelligence
Unfortunately in marvel and even amongst heathens today their is this impression that Thor is dumb, this not the case. Well in marvel I would not say Thor is thick, but there was one incident in The Avengers when Thor suggested that he could be the leader. She Hulk basically said he was not intelligent enough. Anyway lets see what Norse lore has to say about this:
Thór said:
35. "I never learned like lore to dwell
in the breast of any wight born;
with wiley words outwitted thou art:
above ground finds thee, dwarf, the day;
now the sun is seen in thy hall."
This is taken from the Lay of Alvis verse 35. Let me explain whats going on here. A dwarf has come to ask Thor if he can marry his daughter. Instead of Thor killing him outright he decides to trick him instead. Thor basically tests the dwarves knowledge and asks him questions until the sunrises. When the sun rises the dwarf is turned to stone.
Dwarves are highly intelligent, the dwarves are responsible for creating the treasures of the gods, Thor's hammer being one of those treasures. Lets put its this way if its wasn't for Thor's hammer the gods would be toast.
Thor also doesnt just use brute force to get want he wants. In heathen lore Thor disguses himself as a youth in order to trick the giant Hymir.
It is also worth noticing that Thor wanted to kill the giant but he controlled himself:
Thór, however, said he would be able to row a long way out from the shore all the same, and that it wasn't certain that he would be the first to demand to be rowed back; and he got so angry with the giant that he was ready incontinently to set the hammer ringing on his head. He controlled himself, however, as he was intending to try his strength in another place.
Giants are not dumb either. Alot of norse gods are descendents of giants. Some giants have vast magical powers and some giants like Mimir are extremely intelligent. It also it has been suggested that Thor used shape shifting powers to disguise himself.
Also one of Thor's names is The Deep Thinker. Thor was also the patron god of law.
Thor compared to Odin
Another thing you see in Marvel is that Thor is less powerful than Odin and that Thor takes orders from Odin. In heathen lore this is not the case. Yeah some gods are more powerful than others but with the major gods they are all All-Fathers in their own right. Just because Odin wants something done does not mean that his orders are going to be followed, if the other gods dont like what Odin has to say they wont do it end of story.
This is shown in particular in the Gautrek sagas where the gods decide to meet in order to determine the fate of Starkad. Thor does not like Starkad and basically engages in a battle of wills against Odin. For every blessing that Odin gives Starkad, Thor gives him a curse. This shows that if Thor wants to he can match Odins wits.
Its also worth noting that When Loki killed Balder, it was Thor that caught Loki and nobody else. Obvoulsy Thor had to use his wits to find him because it was not an issue of brute strength.
In Norse lore Thor also has his own realm which he lives in within Asagard. Thor lives in a place called Thrudrheim (Power home) and has his own hall called Bilskirnir
Why did Marvel make Thor dumb?
Im know Marvel did some research on Thor but not very good research but I think I now why they decided to make Thor not so intelligent. There is a poem called The Lay of Harbard where Odin disguses himself and Thor does not notice him, basically Odin takes the piss out of him and makes him look rather dumb. To just take this poem and conclude that Thor is dumb is inaccurate. Odin is always getting tricked by his wife is Odin considered to be stupid, no.
Another story that people use to imply that Thor isn't very smart is when Thor travels to Utgard Loki's lair. Basically Thor gets tricked by the giant Utgard Loki, but what people fail to understand is that Loki was there to and was tricked as well , so Loki (There were two loki's in the story Loki and Utgard-Loki)isnt any smarter than Thor is.
The problem is that Thor is a completey honest and pure being, this is why sometimes he can be percieved as being not to bright but he has enough "showings", in norse lore to prove he is just as intelligent as Odin and Loki.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Basically yeah. I could have wriiten more but it would have taken me ages. An accurate representation of Thor would make him as powerful as Odin and just as smart.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
That's the problem: someone with so much power and smarts = someone tough to write 40+ years of stories about. PIS would be rampant; you'd have the equivalent of pre-crisis Superman on your hands. Quite possibly (and no offense meant), Stan and Jack couldn't handle that, or, they felt their readership at that time wouldn't.
__________________
Shinier than a speeding bullet.
How dare you, dont blaspheme!!! j/k Well yeah I understand what your saying, Odin does not have his own comic because he is too powerful. At the end of the day I still think they should have done a better job. They could have made Thor more powerful and turned somebody like Sigurd into the Marvel hero.
Even if they didnt want to make him as powerful as Odin there are so many aspects to Thors character that they got wrong.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Odin in Norse mythology was nigh omniscient and by nothing but decree made it impossible to kill anyone is Asgard (until he broke the rule on his own to kill the witch)
Thor in mythology tottaly obliterates comics Thor. Escpeccialy when you consider their enemies and feats.
__________________
Graffiti outside Latin class.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A juvenal prank.
Meh your right about Thor and Odin. Odin was never way stronger than Thor but as for his intelligence I think Marvel did a good job of it.
Thor while he wasn't stupid he was exactly what he was meant to be a powerhouse. He was brash relied heavely on his strength and does much boasting abot previous feats kind of like the comic Thor.
His intelligence was normal. For one he was tricked by the giants on more than one occassion especially when he went and did his contests against them.
I'm not saying he was stupid but he wasn't very intelligent, average but pretty battle savvy. He could he clever sometimes but it was often with help for just a brief moment.
The way it always has been in Norse Mythos is that Odin= Wisdom Thor=Power while they aren't completely lacking in the other areas they aren't super in the others.
Newjak you have offended me. Do you know why? You dont know what your talking about and further more it shows you didnt even bother to read what I wrote about Thor or you would have not made that statement.
You dont know what your talking about either. Whats the point? I went to the bother of writing that post so you could ignore it and make offensive statements.
Look at the above, this is just a fraction of what I wrote, that proves you dont know what you're talking about, but you completely missed it. Does that sound like somebody whos not highly intelligent.
Furthermore Thor used to be The All-Father of the gods before Odin was.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Jan 24th, 2007 at 05:06 PM
I read everything you said and it doesn't change the fact that Thor is no genius even in Norse Mythology. He was tricked many times and known more for battles and bravado then anything else.
Kind of like how he is in Marvel comics.
He was battle savvy which is fine but don't go talking about how he is super smart he wasn't. He was a battle hardened warrior that boasted much of what he could do. He did it when he faced off against the giants, he did at the river crossing with Odin, and he did it in the halls of Valhalla.
You decided to name a few chioce moments where he could be looked at as extremely clever and most of them aren't even that good.
Like when he countered Odin's decleration on the hero. All he did was say the exact opposite of what Odin did.
Odin: I will make him well liked by nobles
Thor: Well he won't be liked by the common folk
Odin: I will make him live three times as long
Thor: Well he will do something bad in each one
Odin: He will never loose a battle
Thor: But he will be injured in each one
Honestly that wasn't very clever at all. By the way tell them why THor was even angry to begin with the Hero Odin wanted to glorify. Thor was mad because theHero's his mother chose to a giant to wed over Thor so he was mad with envy that he wasn't chosen.
Thor was of average intelligence throughout the Mythos. Yes he had his moments but he wasn't overtly smart.
So why is he called The Deep thinker?
Why is the patron god of law?
Why was he able to trick a dwarf and if you look at the poem Thor asks him a load of questions. Do you know how intelligent dwarves are?
Why was he the only one able to catch Loki, are you aware they were all looking for Loki?
No he was not just know for that:
As I mentioned he was the patron god of law, do you know what that means. So your telling me the law is not an intellectual subject?
He is the patron god of marriage. Yeah marriage is all about war.
Thor controls the weather and he is a fertility god. Farmers were dedicated to Thor. farming does not involve fighting.
Thor was called upon to hallow the runes.
Some witches were dedicated to Thor which means Thor was a god of magic as well.
Thor used to be the All-Father before Odin was.
The most complicated poetry was dedicated to Thor. So why was this the case?
Again one of Thors names is the.... DEEP THINKER To say that he was of average of intelligence and he was just known for his battles is incorrect. Especially with a name like that.
No not at all. Your just taking your limited knowldege of Thor and stereotyping him.
I have already explained.
Yes they are you obvoulsy missed my points.
I hate to break this to you but when it come to intepreting myths your not supposed to take them literialy. Sure they had a word battle but their gods the stories are supposed to be metaphors for what actually happened. They had a word battle but it was more complicated than just saying the opposite of what he said. For example the descritptions of the gods are not to be taken literially they are just supposed to help us understand them. Thor is not a white guy with a red beard, Thor takes the form of a white guy with a red beard, but his appearance is supposed to give us an idea of what he represents.
Yeah and Odin raped a woman in heathen lore.....and? Thats the only time in the whole of heathen lore where Thor acts like a git. Bare in mind that the gods sometimes reflect human behaviour, so obvoulsy im only going to take those positive aspects.
No he was not I explained already.
Name the examples of when he was tricked. I know the examples you are going to give and when you do im going to blast you for not reading my post.
__________________ Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.
- General George Patton Jr
Last edited by Deadline on Jan 24th, 2007 at 06:03 PM
Anyways as for Thor being the Patron of Law think of the time Law wasn't really based on as many terms as it is now. Back then law was simple you break it your in trouble and much be punished by power which is what Thor reperesented.
Face it simple law for a simple god
Thor for what your saying was mainly a War God as that is what he often talks about and what he often is known for. Honestly he known more fighting giants then anything else because it is his biggest trait.
And by the wya your not really countering anything I said. I never said Thor was stupid just not really smart. He is average in that department like he has been shown numerous times to be. Taking a few choice moments doesn't change that.
KMC Community Forums
Jan 24th, 2007 10:44 AM
Well yeah I understand what your saying, Odin does not have his own comic because he is too powerful. At the end of the day I still think they should have done a better job. They could have made Thor more powerful and turned somebody like Sigurd into the Marvel hero.
Sig by Inhuman
